GDT Jan 23/13 Flames VS Canucks 7PM on Splortsnet Pacific

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Re: GDT Jan 23/13 Flames VS Canucks 7PM on Splortsnet Pacifi

Postby Reefer2 » Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:55 pm

coco_canuck wrote:
Reefer2 wrote:Sure it does but AV has to give him a chance to play bigger minutes. If both Booth and Kesler was playing right now I highly doubt Kassian will be getting to play with the Twins.


I think that hypothetical assumption fits your narrative more than anything.

AV gets a bad wrap for not playing youngsters, but it's about them being able to handle those minutes. Considering that Kassian is primed due to having played so much AHL hockey, chances are he'd still get a look in the top 6 because Booth would likely be struggling just as much as the other forwards who haven't had much game action.

Like I said, Kassian has been playing well, and that's why he moved up to the top line during the Oilers game and got more ice-time last night. Novel concept, this making young players earn their ice-time thing.


How is a player suppoed to "earn" his icetime if he never gets real icetime with some of the better players? Playing on the 3rd or 4th line will hardly give a rookie a chance since guys on those lines are not usually the most skilled players. I am not saying to take an 18 year old rookie and put him instantly on the 1st line either.

So your assumption is that is Booth/Kesler was playing right now Kassian would be given a chance to play in the top 6?
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NIGHTMARE FOR KIPPER

Postby Strangelove » Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:59 pm

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Re: GDT Jan 23/13 Flames VS Canucks 7PM on Splortsnet Pacifi

Postby Strangelove » Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:01 pm

Reefer2 wrote:So your assumption is that is Booth/Kesler was playing right now Kassian would be given a chance to play in the top 6?


Dank - Hank - Tank
Booth - Kess - Burr


:thumbs:

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Re: GDT Jan 23/13 Flames VS Canucks 7PM on Splortsnet Pacifi

Postby dbr » Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:04 pm

Reefer2 wrote:How is a player suppoed to "earn" his icetime if he never gets real icetime with some of the better players? Playing on the 3rd or 4th line will hardly give a rookie a chance since guys on those lines are not usually the most skilled players. I am not saying to take an 18 year old rookie and put him instantly on the 1st line either.


I don't think AV is so thick that he'd put Kassian on a line that starts the vast majority of its shifts in the defensive zone, that is comprised mostly of players with a vastly lower skill level than Kassian, and then be surprised that he did not produce points in that role.

I would expect AV thinks about how each of his lines is deployed and when he puts a young player into a situation he has an idea of what that player can realistically achieve.

So even if our top six was relatively set, Kassian could play on the third or fourth line by playing a responsible game, keeping puck possession and contributing to offensive momentum (if not putting points on the board very often), picking his spots well for physical play, etc.

Now that Kassian is in the top six his deployment is different and he should be expected to score goals every now and then to earn his keep.
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Re: GDT Jan 23/13 Flames VS Canucks 7PM on Splortsnet Pacifi

Postby Potatoe1 » Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:05 pm

Strangelove wrote:
Reefer2 wrote:So your assumption is that is Booth/Kesler was playing right now Kassian would be given a chance to play in the top 6?


Dank - Hank - Tank
Booth - Kess - Burr


:thumbs:


That is a pretty fantastic looking top6 in terms of mix.

That said I would be very surprised if Kassian can play well enough to hold a top6 spot through the season. There will likely be significant peaks and valleys through out the season as there almost always are with young rookies.

We are getting a glimpse though of how good this guy can be and at this point it does look like Kassian will be that the tough top6 guy we have long been looking for.

Notice that no one even looked sideways at a Sedin last night, nor did anyone even breath on Kassian when he ran over Kipper.

That BTW is the value of the Eager fight for Kassian. It isn't so much about beating up Ben Eager, it's about saying "hello NHL, my Name is Zack Kassian and if you push me you might just get ktfo". All he has to do is beat someone up every other month and Hank and Dank face wash fest will disappear.
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Re: GDT Jan 23/13 Flames VS Canucks 7PM on Splortsnet Pacifi

Postby Potatoe1 » Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:09 pm

Reefer2 wrote:How is a player suppoed to "earn" his icetime if he never gets real icetime with some of the better players?


Do you have an example of a young player who wasn't given an opportunity to succeed under AV ?
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Re: GDT Jan 23/13 Flames VS Canucks 7PM on Splortsnet Pacifi

Postby Southern_Canuck » Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:18 pm

Potatoe1 wrote:That BTW is the value of the Eager fight for Kassian. It isn't so much about beating up Ben Eager, it's about saying "hello NHL, my Name is Zack Kassian and if you push me you might just get ktfo". All he has to do is beat someone up every other month and Hank and Dank face wash fest will disappear.


That's why I brought up the Clark Gillies example before - I read where Gillies talked about his first year where he stood up to Dave Schultz and that established him as a tough customer... Gillies didn't have to fight a lot throughout his career, and picked up a lot of points playing on a line with two highly skilled players.

I'd love to see something similar happen with Kassian.

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Re: GDT Jan 23/13 Flames VS Canucks 7PM on Splortsnet Pacifi

Postby Vader » Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:19 pm

dbr wrote:
I don't think AV is so thick that he'd put Kassian on a line that starts the vast majority of its shifts in the defensive zone, that is comprised mostly of players with a vastly lower skill level than Kassian, and then be surprised that he did not produce points in that role.

I would expect AV thinks about how each of his lines is deployed and when he puts a young player into a situation he has an idea of what that player can realistically achieve.


It's called "Hodgsoning" a player
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Re: GDT Jan 23/13 Flames VS Canucks 7PM on Splortsnet Pacifi

Postby Reefer2 » Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:20 pm

Potatoe1 wrote:
Reefer2 wrote:How is a player suppoed to "earn" his icetime if he never gets real icetime with some of the better players?


Do you have an example of a young player who wasn't given an opportunity to succeed under AV ?


Other than Kassian for 3 games show me where he gave an opportunity for any young guy to earn his stripes? We could say CoHo from last year but then is that part true based upon all the discussion where his ice time was managed.

Again I am not saying there is not somethings that need to be earned but there has to be some give from the coach for younger guys to make the team and actually play real minutes.
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Re: GDT Jan 23/13 Flames VS Canucks 7PM on Splortsnet Pacifi

Postby Strangelove » Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:26 pm

Just want to mention I LOVE the way "Splortsnet" mikes up the fans.

Seems like CBC and TSN wants to take the crowd out of their broadcasts these days.

Also like me some of that behind-the-net angle on PPs.

Was it ABC that started that back in the day??

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Re: GDT Jan 23/13 Flames VS Canucks 7PM on Splortsnet Pacifi

Postby Meds » Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:30 pm

Vader wrote:
Meds wrote: It was like once we were up 2 we let off the gas a bit. This has to be coaching, Vigneault's stupid respect the opponent and don't embarrass them philosophy.....you know, the one that is never reciprocated.


You don't seriously believe AV told the team to respect the opposition, and sit back with 1/2 a game to go?


No. I don't. But I do think he told them to back off a little. Time and again the Canucks get a 2 goal lead and let the opponent back in because they back off just that little bit and don't got for the kill. I don't think he says sit back and respect the opponent on a 2 goal lead, but he does back them off at that point, and he does appear to play the respect card at 4 goals.

It is AV's style to play more conservative, positional, defensive, protect a lead, hockey. When the team gets a 3 or 4 goal lead in the early 3rd period he will often sit his top 2 lines and just play his grinders. Obviously you should be going more that route, but I want to see the Canucks running up leads and learning to put the skate blade right through to the ice when they have it on the opponent's neck. Teams need to be scared of the Canucks, not comfortable chasing them because they know they are going to be a bit soft once they have a 2 goal cushion. I think that the Canucks, as a team, need to go out and hammer a couple of opponents into the ice, run the score up, and just dominate, as much for the team's confidence and swagger as for the general enjoyment of us fans. Let them rack up some individual points, let the guys feel good about themselves as players. If they keep pissing away 2 goal leads they are going to be edgy and unconfident when it counts.....and I'm not just pointing at the last two games against our Alberta rivals. I'm talking about the recent history of the team. Alot of squandered leads where we had to come up with a winner in the third or OT after being up 2 goals at the halfway point.
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Re: GDT Jan 23/13 Flames VS Canucks 7PM on Splortsnet Pacifi

Postby Potatoe1 » Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:38 pm

Reefer2 wrote:
Other than Kassian for 3 games show me where he gave an opportunity for any young guy to earn his stripes?


Nice try flipping the question.

You are the one who said AV doesn't give young players opportunity, so you are the one who needs to bring the examples.

Which young players do you feel were not given a chance by AV ?

We could say CoHo from last year but then is that part true based upon all the discussion where his ice time was managed.


Hodgson's ice time was managed very well by AV. Hodgson was effective in the limited role he was in and started to struggle when moved up the line up.

Young players need opportunity but they need to to be in a role where they can have success or they will struggle and lose confidence. I can't think of a better example of that then what AV did with Cody last season.
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Re: GDT Jan 23/13 Flames VS Canucks 7PM on Splortsnet Pacifi

Postby Meds » Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:39 pm

Nuckertuzzi wrote:
CFP! wrote:
Nuckertuzzi wrote:Best thing about Schroeder in the lineup is he's potential sweetener for a better Luongo deal.


I was thinking that about Tanev, actually.



Only if there's a good young prospect defenseman with better top 4 upside as part of the package coming our way. Otherwise, no way I'm dangling Tanev. We need the depth. He's about as good of a bottom pair d-man you're going to get and he's cheap. I would think it wouldn't be too difficult to sign him in the offseason at a fairly manageable raise.


He's also the only damn we have who Ballard has found any chemistry with. So as long as Ballard is still a Canuck I think keeping Tanev is doubly important.
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Re: GDT Jan 23/13 Flames VS Canucks 7PM on Splortsnet Pacifi

Postby Vader » Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:42 pm

Meds wrote: I think that the Canucks, as a team, need to go out and hammer a couple of opponents into the ice, run the score up, and just dominate, as much for the team's confidence and swagger as for the general enjoyment of us fans. Let them rack up some individual points, let the guys feel good about themselves as players.



Yeah... totally agree. If AV would just let them run up the score maybe we could win an Art Ross trophy or two...maybe lead the league in goals for a year for a change

Stupid AV :mad:
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Re: GDT Jan 23/13 Flames VS Canucks 7PM on Splortsnet Pacifi

Postby Meds » Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:59 pm

dbr wrote:I would expect AV thinks about how each of his lines is deployed and when he puts a young player into a situation he has an idea of what that player can realistically achieve.


Manny Malhotra, Aaron Rome, Rory Fitzpatrick, and Tanner Glass, are just four names, off the top of my head, of players who were played ahead of better options on numerous occasions. Vigneault plays his favorites, no question about it. I sometimes wonder if he thinks along the lines you mention but fails to really recognize the limitations of some players while placing inaccurately perceived limitations on other players based on who "works real hard in practice".

I've played sports alot, unfortunately never organized ice hockey as I never had the chance, but there is one consistency that remains true in all sports.....some guys will be lights out every practice and bring 110% all the time, but when it comes to the game, it doesn't matter if they bring 120%, they still can't get it done when it counts.
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