Amnesty Buyout

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Re: Amnesty Buyout

Postby Aaronp18 » Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:02 pm

the Dogsalmon wrote:unfortunately for you i look at the whole lifetime of canuck management...i dont just cherrypick what makes them look the best...


Unfortunately for you, you didn't understand what I was addressing.

If you want to look at lifetime Canucks management, that has little if anything to do with today, go right ahead. However we were talking about AV and how he apparently mismanaged all these young players that went on to become NHL regulars contributing to the success of our opposition.

So I cherry picked nothing, but rather addressed the topic at hand.

Canucks History is here BTW:
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Re: Amnesty Buyout

Postby SKYO » Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:08 pm

All I'm saying is AV doesn't cut much slack for rookies to develop much on this team.
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Re: Amnesty Buyout

Postby Aaronp18 » Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:17 pm

SKYO wrote:All I'm saying is AV doesn't cut much slack for rookies to develop much on this team.


Like who?

All I'm saying is I would rather have his approach that requires guys to earn their ice time than it just given to them. He makes players responsible at their end of the rink first and then rewards them with ice time.

We have been a Cup contender the past few years and haven't had the need for a rookie to step in and perform. So the young guys cut their teeth in the AHL and earn their way onto the team.

If they are going to be NHL regulars they will eventually get the ice time.
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Re: Amnesty Buyout

Postby SKYO » Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:28 pm

Pretty much every prospect rookie AV has ever coached on this team, it would be nice if AV just threw the dice and continued to develop a rookie with good minutes for an entire season. As he usually throws a rookie with the twins, they don't perform well, they get sent down.

With the Twins contract expiring soon and IF RK never fully recovers from all his surgeries we all of a sudden become a contender for 1st overall in the NHL draft.

Anyways I think Jensen is a prime candidate to just continue develop with the Canucks in the top 6 next season, especially considering how much the cap will go down, as sometimes it's worth the risk to develop some naturally gifted players that way.
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Re: Amnesty Buyout

Postby Vader » Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:40 pm

SKYO wrote:All I'm saying is AV doesn't cut much slack for rookies to develop much on this team.


Most coaches ride the rookies hard. Welcome to the big leagues.

AV has graduated the likes of Bieksa, Burrows, Kesler, Schneider, Raymond, Hansen and Edler to the lineup full-time. Not too shabby. Most of those guys had a year shuttling between the AHL and NHL before breaking in full time - in the case of Burrows and Kesler that was under Crawford's watch but you get the point. I'd expect AV to do the same with Gaunce and Jensen.
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Re: Amnesty Buyout

Postby RoyalDude » Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:54 pm

Vader wrote:AV has graduated the likes of Bieksa, Burrows, Kesler, Schneider, Raymond, Hansen and Edler to the lineup full-time. Not too shabby. Most of those guys had a year shuttling between the AHL and NHL before breaking in full time - in the case of Burrows and Kesler that was under Crawford's watch but you get the point. I'd expect AV to do the same with Gaunce and Jensen.


Vader, you got way too much factual, common sense for this place. Don't let them break ya down.
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Re: Amnesty Buyout

Postby Aaronp18 » Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:05 pm

Still waiting for that player that AV never gave enough ice time to that has gone on to become an NHL regular elsewhere.

Don't worry, I won't hold my breath.

Vader compiled the list of successors I was referring to.

SKYO, dogsalmon??

Jensen will need to be responsible in his own end before he gets top 6 minutes, period. And that's the way it should be. If he needs a year or so at the AHL level then so be it. He's young and will learn.

I'd rather the team be patient and let kids develop instead of rushing them into the bigs when they aren't ready. Teach them the tools and then put them in positions to succeed instead of rushing them, throwing them in the deep end and possibly hindering their development.
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Re: Amnesty Buyout

Postby Vader » Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:18 pm

Aaronp18 wrote:Still waiting for that player that AV never gave enough ice time to that has gone on to become an NHL regular elsewhere.

Don't worry, I won't hold my breath.

Vader compiled the list of successors I was referring to.

SKYO, dogsalmon??

Jensen will need to be responsible in his own end before he gets top 6 minutes, period. And that's the way it should be. If he needs a year or so at the AHL level then so be it. He's young and will learn.

I'd rather the team be patient and let kids develop instead of rushing them into the bigs when they aren't ready. Teach them the tools and then put them in positions to succeed instead of rushing them, throwing them in the deep end and possibly hindering their development.


Well I suppose you could say Grabner didn't get a great shot here and then went on to rip 34 goals as a rookie. But whether that was because of an AV thing, a Gillis thing or was a straight out "hockey trade" no one really knows for sure.

Ultimately, the notion AV won't play young players is a myth. If you don't play young players, you won't last long as a coach in a salary cap world
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Re: Amnesty Buyout

Postby SKYO » Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:25 pm

I never said AV doesn't play younger players FFS.

All I'm saying it would be nice if he threw caution to the wind once in awhile, to bring along a high caliber rookie even through his struggles, and gave him regular minutes through an entire season.

But alas yes we are a contender, so yeah forcing a rook to develop quick wasn't an option the past few years.

With the cap coming down next season, developing the Canucks rookies/prospects faster imo MG/AV will work on a bit more.
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Re: Amnesty Buyout

Postby Aaronp18 » Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:26 pm

Vader wrote:Well I suppose you could say Grabner didn't get a great shot here and then went on to rip 34 goals as a rookie. But whether that was because of an AV thing, a Gillis thing or was a straight out "hockey trade" no one really knows for sure.


Jeez Grabner, almost forgot about him. Long Island can do that to guys.

Though I don't think he was ever gonna make it as a Canuck. He was never going to learn the defensive game and he seems like one of those guys hat will perform when there's little to no expectation on him.

He doesn't have the tools to play a two way game.

Plus he was completely given up on by the first team he went to after the Canucks! :wink:
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Re: Amnesty Buyout

Postby Vader » Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:33 pm

SKYO wrote:I never said AV doesn't play younger players FFS.

All I'm saying it would be nice if he threw caution to the wind once in awhile, to bring along a high caliber rookie even through his struggles, and gave him regular minutes through an entire season.

.


Just because a coach doesn't give a rookie a full season doesn't mean he's tossing the guy to the Wolves (rimshot). Many players have to do the shuffle between the farm and the big team. In many cases, that's the plan before the season even starts. Give the player a taste, see if he can take the reins, and if not, he's got an idea of where he needs to improve and work on that in the minors.
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Re: Amnesty Buyout

Postby SKYO » Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:48 pm

Vader wrote:Just because a coach doesn't give a rookie a full season doesn't mean he's tossing the guy to the Wolves (rimshot). Many players have to do the shuffle between the farm and the big team. In many cases, that's the plan before the season even starts. Give the player a taste, see if he can take the reins, and if not, he's got an idea of where he needs to improve and work on that in the minors.

100% agreed.

Would still like to see AV take a risk on a rookie to develop him a bit more quicker than the way you described, and I think Jensen would be that guy next season to try that on, as the way AV talked about him in the Sept. 2011 training camp before.

Here’s Alain Vigneault, upon being asked about Jensen’s play last Saturday. From Elliott Pap:
“Love him,” said Coach V with an enormous grin. “I mean, I was waiting for somebody to ask me a question about him. There’s a young man that, from what I’ve seen so far, has a tremendous amount of upside. No fear. He just goes out and plays and I’m really happy the organization was able to come to terms with him.”

[...] Now it’s our responsibility to develop him,” Vigneault said. “There is so much upside there and you just can’t buy that size and skill. We’ll do everything we can to help him become the best player he can be.”


PassItToBulis makes an interesting observation,
Still, it’s Vigneault’s insistence on proper development — a point that appears in both quotes — that raises the eyebrow.
Clearly, he and the rest of the Canucks’ coaching staff believe they have something very special in Jensen, and it’s therefore vital to ensure the kid develops the right way. But, considering what happened to Cody Hodgson and Luc Bourdon when they were returned to juniors — where they showed up for training camp the following year less NHL-ready – you wonder if Vigneault is willing to let Jensen out of his sight.

Now, I’m not suggesting that Jensen is about to be given a permanent spot in the Canucks’ lineup, but do I think it’s not outside the realm of possibility that he gets at least nine NHL games with the team (the maximum amount before he burns a year on his entry-level deal) before he’s returned to the OHL.
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Re: Amnesty Buyout

Postby RoyalDude » Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:04 pm

Vader wrote:Well I suppose you could say Grabner didn't get a great shot here and then went on to rip 34 goals as a rookie. But whether that was because of an AV thing, a Gillis thing or was a straight out "hockey trade" no one really knows for sure.

Ultimately, the notion AV won't play young players is a myth. If you don't play young players, you won't last long as a coach in a salary cap world


Hang tough, Vades...don't let them bring you down to their uneducated levels
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Re: Amnesty Buyout

Postby Topper » Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:30 am

Is Pissittobullis saying AV threw Bourdon under the bus?
Over the Internet, you can pretend to be anyone or anything.

I'm amazed that so many people choose to be complete twats.
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Re: Amnesty Buyout

Postby ukcanuck » Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:47 am

Topper wrote:Is Pissittobullis saying AV threw Bourdon under the bus?

ouch...
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