Amnesty Buyout

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Re: Amnesty Buyout

Postby Vader » Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:27 am

ukcanuck wrote:I bet gillis refuses to buy out anyone, its not good for business when it comes to attracting free agents for a start.


Why? Will burying Redden in the minors adversly affect NYR from signing free agents? Will UFA's not come to MTL if/when they buy out Gomez? I highly doubt it. Players sign where the money is and where there is a chance to win. If a team buys out a player to give themselves a better shot at winning then the free agents will come.
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Re: Amnesty Buyout

Postby Tciso » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:18 pm

Vader wrote: He's(Booth) poor value for the $$


No one is arguing that fact. But, is he really worth buying out only to replace him with a $3.6 million player who can do the same job? I don't think it's a great move to waste his salary just for a few hundred thousand of cap space.
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Re: Amnesty Buyout

Postby Vader » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:34 pm

Tciso wrote:
Vader wrote: He's(Booth) poor value for the $$


No one is arguing that fact. But, is he really worth buying out only to replace him with a $3.6 million player who can do the same job? I don't think it's a great move to waste his salary just for a few hundred thousand of cap space.


:roll:

Actually, you argued that fact. You pointed to Fleishman and Versteeg as "right in line" with Booth despite the fact they are clearly much more productive than Booth at the same $$, and playing in the position that Booth had with FLA
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Re: Amnesty Buyout

Postby ukcanuck » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:43 pm

Vader wrote:
ukcanuck wrote:I bet gillis refuses to buy out anyone, its not good for business when it comes to attracting free agents for a start.


Why? Will burying Redden in the minors adversly affect NYR from signing free agents? Will UFA's not come to MTL if/when they buy out Gomez? I highly doubt it. Players sign where the money is and where there is a chance to win. If a team buys out a player to give themselves a better shot at winning then the free agents will come.

Put yourself in the player's shoes...being bought out is total slap in the competitive face. Sure they get there money but you're being told that as an asset you are worthless... watch those teams that take the buy out route, if they buy out a Yashin,that'll be expected, but if its a hard working regular joe... Free agent players are going to take note...
For a Canadian market, with all the added pressure, if I'm gillis I would probably try every other trade avenue first.
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Re: Amnesty Buyout

Postby Tciso » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:55 pm

Vader wrote:
Tciso wrote:
Vader wrote: He's(Booth) poor value for the $$


No one is arguing that fact. But, is he really worth buying out only to replace him with a $3.6 million player who can do the same job? I don't think it's a great move to waste his salary just for a few hundred thousand of cap space.


:roll:

Actually, you argued that fact. You pointed to Fleishman and Versteeg as "right in line" with Booth despite the fact they are clearly much more productive than Booth at the same $$, and playing in the position that Booth had with FLA


It's called a BALLPARK dude. I said he is in the ballpark for salary.
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Re: Amnesty Buyout

Postby Vader » Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:17 pm

ukcanuck wrote:
Vader wrote:
ukcanuck wrote:I bet gillis refuses to buy out anyone, its not good for business when it comes to attracting free agents for a start.


Why? Will burying Redden in the minors adversly affect NYR from signing free agents? Will UFA's not come to MTL if/when they buy out Gomez? I highly doubt it. Players sign where the money is and where there is a chance to win. If a team buys out a player to give themselves a better shot at winning then the free agents will come.

Put yourself in the player's shoes...being bought out is total slap in the competitive face. Sure they get there money but you're being told that as an asset you are worthless... watch those teams that take the buy out route, if they buy out a Yashin,that'll be expected, but if its a hard working regular joe... Free agent players are going to take note...
For a Canadian market, with all the added pressure, if I'm gillis I would probably try every other trade avenue first.


Again, obviously it's better to trade your problem than pay it to go away, but if you don't think teams will exercise their amnesty buy-outs then you're nuts. Owner's cheated the salary cap why wouldn't they use a perfectly legal way to gain an advantage?

As far putting myself "in the players shoes"..how this

Marc Bergervin: "Hi Corey Perry, Marc Bergevin here...want to sign with us?"

Corey Perry: "Sure Marc, sounds good"

Marc Bergevin: "Just one thing, can't pay you what you're looking for, got this Gomez dude on the 'roll. Real bummer. I don't do buy outs. By the way, he'll be your centre"

Corey Perry: *Click*
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Re: Amnesty Buyout

Postby Vader » Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:19 pm

Tciso wrote:
It's called a BALLPARK dude. I said he is in the ballpark for salary.


You called it a Ballpark? Nah, you called it "Right in line"

Must be a pretty big ballpark if you're comparing 60 point players to 40 point ones
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Re: Amnesty Buyout

Postby dbr » Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:56 pm

Vader wrote:davidboothreturns,


:look:

If the cap stayed where it was when Booth signed he'd be grossly overpaid. I never understood the rational of the cap going up increasing a players value to a team. There's a reason in a $64M cap world he was given away by FLA.


I think a rising cap limits the level of liability a contract like Booth's can pose.

Does it make him more valuable? No. But it does make a team like the Canucks (who with few exceptions have managed their cap very well) better able to accommodate a bad contract if it is attached to a player who fills a need for your team.

Now that the cap movement is headed in the other direction and we have an All Star defenseman to re-sign it may be time to take a less sympathetic look at contracts like Booth's.

You're right, he has some good tools (size, speed) , but IMO Booth has proven to be a mediocre top six player. He's average defensively and his scoring level is firmly at 40-42 points per season. At $4M and change, he's paid roughly the same as Schneider, Hamhuis, Bieksa, Garrison, and just $750K less than Kesler. He's nowhere near as valuable to the team as those guys. He's poor value for the $$


Yeah Booth is by no means on the same level as most other Canucks - no argument here.

That being said he brings a skill set that is somewhat unique amongst his teammates and if he can do it effectively this season then you have to look at keeping him. Until we have other, cheaper or better options.
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Re: Amnesty Buyout

Postby Vader » Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:06 pm

dbr wrote:
Vader wrote:davidboothreturns,


:look:

If the cap stayed where it was when Booth signed he'd be grossly overpaid. I never understood the rational of the cap going up increasing a players value to a team. There's a reason in a $64M cap world he was given away by FLA.


I think a rising cap limits the level of liability a contract like Booth's can pose.

Does it make him more valuable? No. But it does make a team like the Canucks (who with few exceptions have managed their cap very well) better able to accommodate a bad contract if it is attached to a player who fills a need for your team.

Now that the cap movement is headed in the other direction and we have an All Star defenseman to re-sign it may be time to take a less sympathetic look at contracts like Booth's.

You're right, he has some good tools (size, speed) , but IMO Booth has proven to be a mediocre top six player. He's average defensively and his scoring level is firmly at 40-42 points per season. At $4M and change, he's paid roughly the same as Schneider, Hamhuis, Bieksa, Garrison, and just $750K less than Kesler. He's nowhere near as valuable to the team as those guys. He's poor value for the $$


Yeah Booth is by no means on the same level as most other Canucks - no argument here.

That being said he brings a skill set that is somewhat unique amongst his teammates and if he can do it effectively this season then you have to look at keeping him. Until we have other, cheaper or better options.


I guess my point is, the cap can go to $100M and David Booth will still be a mediocre top six guy - this is a team with cup aspirations. As mentioned before in this thread, there should be some real good opportunities to get good players at good contracts in this upcoming off-season, not too mention re-signing Edler. I think that means buh-bye to Booth (and Ballard)

If Booth can get back to 55+ points and bring some physicality, sure keep him. But that one 60 point year sure looks like an anomaly
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Re: Amnesty Buyout

Postby SKYO » Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:17 pm

I think MG will keep Booth for this and next season to see if he improves before writing him off.

Ray/Higgins/Manny/Ballard will be traded, not re-signed or bought out all before Booth imo.
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Re: Amnesty Buyout

Postby Vader » Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:29 pm

SKYO wrote:I think MG will keep Booth for this and next season to see if he improves before writing him off.

Ray/Higgins/Manny/Ballard will be traded, not re-signed or bought out all before Booth imo.


Hey Skyo-

Those first three are all UFA's at the end of this season, so no buyout needed there. But those guys will need to be replaced so that won't likely affect Booth's situation much given that they combine to make $7.5M roughly, and likely can't be replaced any cheaper...unless Jensen and/or Gaunce can grab one of those spots
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Re: Amnesty Buyout

Postby Strangelove » Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:07 pm

Booth is not defensively minded but he’s not afraid to drive to the net and go to the dirty areas. His GPG numbers have always been solid, even last season when his PP time was reduced (exactly where you would want your second-liner numbers to be). He’s not the smartest guy in town and with the cap going down (percentage of cap is a factor) he suddenly becomes more overpaid, yes.

But for the time being Booth fills a need on the 2nd line. The jury is still out on how overpaid he is. So what to do? Well we play the hell out of him in a shortened season and trade him in the summer IF he doesn’t perform up to snuff and IF we have a better option. No need to buy him out, he’s a proven net-crashing second-line goal-scorer… there are always teams looking for those. The fact he’s overpaid brings his trade value way down in this day & age, but hey no need for a buyout imo.

For now, especially with Kesler out, we’re going to need this goal-scorer on the 2nd line.

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Re: Amnesty Buyout

Postby Tciso » Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:20 pm

SKYO wrote:I think MG will keep Booth for this and next season to see if he improves before writing him off.

Ray/Higgins/Manny/Ballard will be traded, not re-signed or bought out all before Booth imo.



Higgins? Really? We are on different pages with Higgins. I'd love to have him for 3 or 4 more seasons on my 3rd line, and filling in on the 2nd if needed. The other 3. Meh?
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Re: Amnesty Buyout

Postby herb » Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:24 pm

In 62 games played last season, David Booth had 16 goals and 14 assists for 30 points (which pro-rates to a 21 goal, 19 assist, 40 point season). Hardly ‘set the world on fire’ kind of numbers, but how did he stack up against other forwards in the league?

597 forwards played in the NHL last season. David Booth’s 30 points ranked him 187 in the league, which puts him in the top 1/3. Booth’s 16 goals put him at ranked 146 in the league, which is in the top ¼ of forwards.

Keeping in mind that David Booth was injured and missed ¼ of a season, how would he have ranked had he played all 82 games? He would have been in the top 15th percentile of goal scorers, and the top 25th percentile for points. These would be top line NHL numbers.

As it stands, even with the injury, Booth put up a respectable goal total when compared with his peers. As demonstrated, he scored more than ¾ of the league.

Now, is David Booth overpaid at a cap hit of $4.25M? It’s a tough thing to argue either way. What is a point worth in today’s NHL? What about a goal? Some goals are more valuable than others. There are so many intangibles like size, speed, toughness, intelligence, leadership, attitude, fit and acquisition cost that come into play. It’s very tough to put values on players.

The way I look at this particular player is this. Booth brings an element to our team that we didn’t have enough of before, and we acquired him for very little cost. Yes, he is a narrowly focussed player, and not at all a utility guy like Burrows or Hansen. He does bring elements of speed, size and going hard to the net that others on the Canucks don’t.

I think if you compared Booth on an ‘all other things being equal basis’ you would find that he is overpaid by $500-750k compared with similar players throughout the league; however, all things are never equal. He was awarded his current contract based upon a 30 goal, 60 point season, and has not repeated those numbers due to whatever reasons be they injuries, fit, etc.

I think after this season GMMG will need to evaluate a lot of players, Booth included. If GMMG has a better option than Booth as a second line winger, then he should go ahead and make the change. Until then, Booth is a quality NHL forward who scores goals at a top 6 rate. I don’t think you just dump anybody because they are ‘overpaid’ until you have a better option to fill in that role.
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Re: Amnesty Buyout

Postby Strangelove » Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:33 pm

Hmmm just checked: Booth's "actual salary" goes from $4.5 - $4.75 over the last 3 years of the deal ($4.25mil cap-hit).

So yeah, that brings other factors into play (cap-recapture, tradeability) but no time to think, gotta run...

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