There will be a strike

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Re: There will be a strike

Postby okcanuck » Tue Jan 01, 2013 10:05 am

It will be interesting to see if Buttman has another "hill to die on". What a goof.
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Re: There will be a strike

Postby nuckster » Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:23 pm

Interesting. Why couldn't they (nhl) have negotiated like this through-out the preceding months?? The 11th or 12 hour comes upon the process and then finally there's a 'we better get serious' attitude w/o all of the stupid media posturing. Jeeesus. What an 'apparent' strategic waste of time. By rights they should have started to negotiate in earnest late in the summer before the CBA expired! To who's frikin benefit was it to put this off for so long? Everyone gets stiffed - the owners, the players and ofcourse the fans. I dunno, it just seems that for so many people who are supposedly intelligent representing so many with so much at stake, there has been a whole lot of stupidity going around. My perception of all of this is that the owners via G. Bettman, really fucked up.

Now an intersting question to consider, with a shortened 48 game season, how will the Canucks be effected? Is there an opportunity for an underwhelming team to start hot out of the gate and pulloff an upset when it comes to play-off standings?
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Re: There will be a strike

Postby Topper » Wed Jan 02, 2013 6:26 pm

Most are asking the same question, though they direct it at Fehr.

Don has a history of playing the delay.....stall.......delay......stall game, so is it any real surprise he has also done so here.

The NHLPA resisted talks during last season.

It took the NHLPA a full month last summer to respond to the leagues initial offer with one of their own. One that guaranteed themselves pay raises over the term of the agreement.

Fifteen days later, the league makes a counter proposal.

A week and a half later the PA abandons negotiations and challenges the impending lockout before Alberta and Quebec LRBs.

Three days later, the league gives the PA another offer.

A month later, the PA receives another offer.

Two days later, the PA rewords it's original offer in three repartee proposals, none vary from the original offer made in August.

Three weeks later, the league offer's "make whole".

Two weeks later the NHLPA, take "make hole" raises it and still asks for the guaranteed raises they have been asking for since August.

A month later, owners and player meet without leaders. Players finally back off on guaranteed raises but Fehr comes back in the room and asks for transition buyouts and caps on escrow.
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Re: There will be a strike

Postby okcanuck » Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:06 pm

Topper wrote:Most are asking the same question, though they direct it at Fehr.

Don has a history of playing the delay.....stall.......delay......stall game, so is it any real surprise he has also done so here.

The NHLPA resisted talks during last season.

It took the NHLPA a full month last summer to respond to the leagues initial offer with one of their own. One that guaranteed themselves pay raises over the term of the agreement.

Fifteen days later, the league makes a counter proposal.

A week and a half later the PA abandons negotiations and challenges the impending lockout before Alberta and Quebec LRBs.

Three days later, the league gives the PA another offer.

A month later, the PA receives another offer.

Two days later, the PA rewords it's original offer in three repartee proposals, none vary from the original offer made in August.

Three weeks later, the league offer's "make whole".

Two weeks later the NHLPA, take "make hole" raises it and still asks for the guaranteed raises they have been asking for since August.

A month later, owners and player meet without leaders. Players finally back off on guaranteed raises but Fehr comes back in the room and asks for transition buyouts and caps on escrow.


Bettman and Feur are both to blame for this fiasco. Feur and the PA delayed talks last summer and then Bettman and the owners came up with the ridiculous 57-43 split offer,which understandably pissed off the players. If they would have come in with a more reasonable split we would be watching hockey right now.
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Re: There will be a strike

Postby Blob Mckenzie » Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:38 pm

okcanuck wrote:
Topper wrote:Most are asking the same question, though they direct it at Fehr.

Don has a history of playing the delay.....stall.......delay......stall game, so is it any real surprise he has also done so here.

The NHLPA resisted talks during last season.

It took the NHLPA a full month last summer to respond to the leagues initial offer with one of their own. One that guaranteed themselves pay raises over the term of the agreement.

Fifteen days later, the league makes a counter proposal.

A week and a half later the PA abandons negotiations and challenges the impending lockout before Alberta and Quebec LRBs.

Three days later, the league gives the PA another offer.

A month later, the PA receives another offer.

Two days later, the PA rewords it's original offer in three repartee proposals, none vary from the original offer made in August.

Three weeks later, the league offer's "make whole".

Two weeks later the NHLPA, take "make hole" raises it and still asks for the guaranteed raises they have been asking for since August.

A month later, owners and player meet without leaders. Players finally back off on guaranteed raises but Fehr comes back in the room and asks for transition buyouts and caps on escrow.


Bettman and Feur are both to blame for this fiasco. Feur and the PA delayed talks last summer and then Bettman and the owners came up with the ridiculous 57-43 split offer,which understandably pissed off the players. If they would have come in with a more reasonable split we would be watching hockey right now.


I agree that both of the weasly lawyers are to blame for this mess, but to say that there would be hockey if the owners had come in with a more reasonable split right off the hop is a bit of a pipe dream to say the least. We all knew there was going to be a dick measuring contest , but I think most of us are a bit surprised it has taken as long as it has. I was counting on 60 -64 games.......no way in hell did I ever envision a full season.
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Re: There will be a strike

Postby dbr » Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:10 pm

The fact is there is zero trust in these negotiations and both sides knew that the best offer was not going to come until the season hung in the balance.. neither see truly had a reason to jump at a deal before these next two weeks.
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Re: There will be a strike

Postby Fred » Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:25 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong what was the point of the PA playing hard ball. They are now at 50% of HRR down from 57% the length of contracts is 6 years, the new CBA will be 10 years long and they've lost half a season of salaries and the Cap is going to be set at $60 million. Surely they new they would loose this in the end why the hold up ? Now they're holding it up for I believe a rather minor point on the pension.

Fehr has lead them into a war they couldn't win ... for what his own glory or a job. He doesn't give a dam about hockey his preferred sport is baseball. He understood very well that many of the owners were better off not playing the season than actually loosing more if they played the season.
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Re: There will be a strike

Postby Meds » Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:50 pm

okcanuck wrote:
Topper wrote:Most are asking the same question, though they direct it at Fehr.

Don has a history of playing the delay.....stall.......delay......stall game, so is it any real surprise he has also done so here.

The NHLPA resisted talks during last season.

It took the NHLPA a full month last summer to respond to the leagues initial offer with one of their own. One that guaranteed themselves pay raises over the term of the agreement.

Fifteen days later, the league makes a counter proposal.

A week and a half later the PA abandons negotiations and challenges the impending lockout before Alberta and Quebec LRBs.

Three days later, the league gives the PA another offer.

A month later, the PA receives another offer.

Two days later, the PA rewords it's original offer in three repartee proposals, none vary from the original offer made in August.

Three weeks later, the league offer's "make whole".

Two weeks later the NHLPA, take "make hole" raises it and still asks for the guaranteed raises they have been asking for since August.

A month later, owners and player meet without leaders. Players finally back off on guaranteed raises but Fehr comes back in the room and asks for transition buyouts and caps on escrow.


Bettman and Feur are both to blame for this fiasco. Feur and the PA delayed talks last summer and then Bettman and the owners came up with the ridiculous 57-43 split offer,which understandably pissed off the players. If they would have come in with a more reasonable split we would be watching hockey right now.


You go right ahead and keep smoking that pipe.

The NHL came in with a 57/43 split, which if I'm not mistaken, is the reverse of the split that was in place for the expired CBA. The players hated it. I think the point of that offer was to really spotlight the unfairness of such a split regardless of which side has the lion's share. 50/50 is fair. That was probably the NHL's target in the first place.

Topper's outline of Fehr's moves in this negotiation are bang on. It blows me away how many people point the finger at the NHL for taking so long to get to this point, and calling the league and the owners out for delaying this long before putting a "decent" offer on the table, all while they just casually dismiss, or overlook, the fact that the NHLPA, led by Donald Delay Fehr, refused to even negotiate with the league for over 6 months.
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Re: There will be a strike

Postby Meds » Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:56 pm

Fred wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong what was the point of the PA playing hard ball. They are now at 50% of HRR down from 57% the length of contracts is 6 years, the new CBA will be 10 years long and they've lost half a season of salaries and the Cap is going to be set at $60 million. Surely they new they would loose this in the end why the hold up ? Now they're holding it up for I believe a rather minor point on the pension.

Fehr has lead them into a war they couldn't win ... for what his own glory or a job. He doesn't give a dam about hockey his preferred sport is baseball. He understood very well that many of the owners were better off not playing the season than actually loosing more if they played the season.


I won't be surprised if they settle with a cap that is closer to $65M and a maximum contract length of 7 years while doing away with the extra year option available to players who are re-signing with the same team that they played for for the entire last year of their previous contract. We may even see the duration of this CBA drop by a couple of years.....as it stands now both sides would retain the right to opt out and renegotiate after 8 years.

Oh, and I'm continually astounded by the sheer number of people who don't know how to spell the word losing. As in a loss or lost, not loosing as in setting free or letting go of.
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Re: There will be a strike

Postby ukcanuck » Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:04 pm

who knows what Bettman was offering last summer but its a good bet that it wasn't as good as the offer on the table now.
Fehr has gotten the league from 43% to 50% which wouldn't be where it would be if he had started negotiating when Bettman wanted him too...
I can't see how anyone can blame the players from holding out as long as possible, 1% of 3 billion dollars over eight or ten years is not chump change... To say nothing of contract terms...

Seems to me holding out and letting Bettman negotiate against himself has been a better strategy than folding like an outsourced tent...

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Re: There will be a strike

Postby okcanuck » Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:08 pm

We'll never know,but I'd be willing to bet that a majority of the teams ,with hindsight, are regretting the initial offer of 57-43 they gave the PA.
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Re: There will be a strike

Postby Meds » Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:34 pm

okcanuck wrote:We'll never know,but I'd be willing to bet that a majority of the teams ,with hindsight, are regretting the initial offer of 57-43 they gave the PA.


Why? I highly doubt they expected the PA to accept it. And that isn't the reason it has taken this long to get to the current offer.

ukcanuck wrote:who knows what Bettman was offering last summer but its a good bet that it wasn't as good as the offer on the table now.
Fehr has gotten the league from 43% to 50% which wouldn't be where it would be if he had started negotiating when Bettman wanted him too...
I can't see how anyone can blame the players from holding out as long as possible, 1% of 3 billion dollars over eight or ten years is not chump change... To say nothing of contract terms...

Seems to me holding out and letting Bettman negotiate against himself has been a better strategy than folding like an outsourced tent...


It doesn't matter what Bettman and Co. put on the table last summer, if they had been able to put that offer on the table right after the all-star break then Fehr could have played his delay, stall, delay, refuse, delay, threaten decertification, refuse, rebuttal, refuse, etc., tactic and probably gotten us here by November.

I don't for a minute think that they would have gotten this far against the league without losing some games, but I suspect that the number of games lost would have been much less if the owners had thrown down 57/43 in February and had it thrown back in their faces then. Everyone knows that negotiation is rarely fast in these matters. Both sides want to make out like gangbusters, so it is always going to take some time to reach that agreement. It was the PA that took things to the cliff right before the season was ready to start before they even sat down.

I'm not blaming the players for trying to get as much as the can, it's part of negotiating, but if they are so ok with empowering Fehr to play hardball now, then they should have told him to play hardball at the table as early as possible.
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Re: There will be a strike

Postby okcanuck » Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:59 pm

Meds
You really dont think that a more reasonable offer by the owners wouldn't have shortened this dispute? Of course it would have. If they came in with a more realistic offer, of say 52-48, and worked to 50-50 which is where they're at now , Feur wouldn't have the same solidarity of the players.
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Re: There will be a strike

Postby Fred » Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:02 pm

Oh, and I'm continually astounded by the sheer number of people who don't know how to spell the word losing. As in a loss or lost, not loosing as in setting free or letting go of.


Thank you Sir :oops:
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Re: There will be a strike

Postby ukcanuck » Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:34 pm

okcanuck wrote:Meds
You really dont think that a more reasonable offer by the owners wouldn't have shortened this dispute? Of course it would have. If they came in with a more realistic offer, of say 52-48, and worked to 50-50 which is where they're at now , Feur wouldn't have the same solidarity of the players.

can't buy that one, Fehr must have been sure of the solidarity and commitment of the players long before the CBA expired. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if that was a condition of accepting the position in the first place considering what happened to Goodenow the last time...

As for negotiating with Buttman, why would you until you were sure you were starting with his best offer which common sense says its was going to be somewhere near the drop dead date for the season...

Speaking of Goodenow...I wonder if any of those desperate sports journalists out there have tried getting an interview?
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