Gaza Attacks

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Re: Gaza Attacks

Postby Per » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:28 am

Strangelove wrote: Like OMG dude, I totally LOVETH to smiteth infidels!! :thumbs:
(just ask Spidey)

Short lesson in archaic English verb forms:
SMITE, present tense
1st person singular: I smite
2nd person singular: thou smitest
3rd person singular: he/she/it smiteth
1st/2nd/3rd person plural: we/you/they smite

The Swedish pop group The Ark made a song called Calleth You Cometh I.
I cringe every time I hear it. If you don’t know how to use archaic forms – stay the hell away from them! :mad:

By the way, when was the last time you heard someone use the informal second person pronoun?
Seems English speakers have been formal at all times for centuries now. :|

Strangelove wrote:
Per wrote:
Strangelove wrote:
Is building a house on land your family has owned for hundreds (thousands?) of years on the same level as executing POWs and mass-murdering civilians by way of say, chemical weapons? Cuz that's pretty strong language there Bucko!
Not on the same level, just as shop lifting and bank robbery are both crimes but not on the same level. It is however a war crime and a violation of the Geneva convention to forcibly remove a civilian population in an occupied territory and replace it with your own citizens.
We agree executing POWs and mass-murdering civilians is on a whole new level compared to what Israel is doing.
Good. :scowl:
Point was, most civilized folk reserve the phrases "gross violation of the GC" and "war crimes" for the former.

Point taken. Strike "gross".

Strangelove wrote: BTW did you know ~100 of the ~221 settlements are NOT officially recognized by the Israeli government and are illegal under Israeli law?

Yup. I’m actually quite impressed by how the Israeli supreme court consistently tries to uphold the law in an environment where anyone who ever criticizes anything the Israeli govt says/does is either portrayed as a traitors (if they’re Israelis) or anti-semites (if they’re not Israelis).
(I’m always intrigued at how Israeli spokesmen can paint the Swedish artist Dror Feiler, who was raised on a kibbutz and whose parents were irgun members, as an anti-semite, but I guess they just never did a thorough background check on him. He favours a two state solution based on the internationally accepted pre-1967 borders, and I guess that’s enough to make most Likud members start frothing at the mouth… and yeah, he went on that Ship-to-Gaza cruise. Still.)
The Israeli supreme court even ruled parts of the “security wall” illegal. I totally agree with their ruling. The wall in itself is not illegal, and I can see that it can help improve security, but it should follow the accepted border and not cut deep into occupied territory.

As for the settler movement; some of those settlers are at least as extreme as Hamas. It was one of them who murdered Rabin, btw, and their actions jeopardize the lives of Israeli soldiers that have to step in to clear up the mess they create. From what I understand a majority of Israelis are willing to give up all the “minor” settlements if a two state solution is negotiated but want to keep some of the major ones near Jerusalem. I bet that could be easily solved by instead offering something the Palestinians want, eg compensation for properties confiscated, etc.

Strangelove wrote: You DO realize there has always been a population of Jews in the Holy Lands at any given point in the last 3000 years?
It wasn’t a COMPLETE diaspora I hope y’know.

I know, that’s what I’ve been saying! I’m even going as far as saying that the majority of Palestinians (somewhere between 80-90% according to DNA studies) are the direct descendants of the biblical Jews.
The Romans are not known to ever have ethnically cleansed an area. They conquered land and subjugated people, but they did not tend to commit genocide (well, apart from the occasional village…) or forcibly exile people. They crushed a rebellion in what is now Israel and leveled the temple. They probably rounded up and executed hundreds - if not thousands - of Jewish rebels, and as a consequence a sizable chunk of the population fled for their lives, causing the diaspora. Others were enslaved as punishment for the rebellion, and some slaves were probably transported to the Roman heartland, ie Italy, but the vast majority of Jews stayed put where they were. They were first “Hellenized”, ie became part of the Greco-Roman civilization. Then hordes of them were forced to convert to Christianity by the Crusaders. Then they became swallowed first by the Caliphate, the Mamelukes and then the Ottoman Empire. After almost a millennium of Muslim rule, most of the Jews left behind in the “holy land” had converted to Islam, albeit there were still quite a few of them following Mosaic tradition and also a booming Christian community. Some 15% of Palestinians are still Christian today, and Yassir Arafat (albeit a secular muslim) made it a point to always attend mass on Xmas morning. The Ottomans btw encouraged Jews to return to the area, leading to a growing Jewish community during that period. Then the British arrived and created Palestine. The British were less inclined to accept Jewish immigrants and made that process harder. Then WWII happened, the weakened UK started to lose grip on their colonies, and Europeans with a bad conscience pressured the UN into creating a Jewish homeland in Israel. The English huffed and puffed but finally agreed. And then the whole mess we have today started.
I can certainly see the Jews yearning to finally be the majority again in a country, but the solution we ended up with failed to see that the Palestinians were not “true” Arabs that had moved into some void left behind when every single Jew left the area. In fact, the Palestinians are as much heirs of Abraham as the European Jews are*. They just switched from Arameic to Arabic in their everyday conversations and started reading the Quran. Is it right to disinherit people just because they switch church? :eh:

Strangelove wrote: Hey Per, you'd tell us if you secretly hate jews, right buds? :wink:

Pretty sure that I would. Anti-semites, racists and homophobes never seem to be able to keep their mouth shut, eh? :lol:

And for the record, I have made a personal effort in bringing peace to the Middle East by teaching an Israeli soldier to slowfox! Israelis doing military service have to carry their guns with them at all times. I actually once saw a guy windsurfing with a gun strapped to his back… hope he had greased it up real good… Anyways, I was at a night club in Eilat when a group of young women with assault rifles entered. One was quite a looker, so as the music slowed down I went over and asked her up. She agreed and handed the gun to her friend, like most girls do with their handbags or purses, and then we took to the dance floor… Ah, the memories… :blush:

*in fact, Ashkenazi Jews seem to have roughly 30% “European DNA”, so their blood is more diluted than that of the Jews that turned Palestinians, who have roughly 15% “Arab DNA”…
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Re: Gaza Attacks

Postby Arachnid » Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:27 am

Strangelove wrote:
Arachnid wrote:Obviously der Spiegel has never been to Abbortsford... 8-)


Der Spiegel would LOVE Abbotsford!! :thumbs:

Not Tarrana though, such a dark, dark place you're in good buddy....


If I had a choice, live in the clitoris of Kanada or the rectum... 8-)

...'sides, things just got a whole lot brighter, we just got rid of our mayor and bike lanes! :wave: :rockin: :cheers:

Top that Abortionsfjord!

:?
Last edited by Arachnid on Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gaza Attacks

Postby Per » Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:43 am

I think it must be fascinating for those of you who have painted ukcanuck as a radical socialist to see him go all neocon (if not beyond…) on this issue. Let’s first see him accuse a solid majority of Israeli Knesset members of treason:
ukcanuck wrote: I think it would be treasonous for any Israeli leader to agree to a two state solution, an internationally recognized Palestinian sovereign state would then have a legitimate foreign policy and have the right to legally wage war.
Of Israel’s four main political parties three (Kadima, centrist, 22.5% of the vote in 2009, 28 seats in Knesset; Yisrael Beitineu, catering mainly to Russian immigrants, 11.7%, 15 seats; Labor, socialist Zionists, 9,9%, 13 seats) are in favour of a two party solution and Likud (right wing, 21.7%, 27 seats) are talking out of both sides of their mouth on the issue – accepting a two state solution in theory but in practice doing everything they can to hinder or at least postpone it. (Whenever the more reasonable Fatah seems to get a clear majority among the Palestinians, Netanyahu will release some prisoners directly to Hamas or bomb Gaza or whatever to ensure a surge in popularity for Hamas again, and then he says he can’t negotiate with Hamas… )
To be honest, Yisrael Beitineu’s detailed positions on the matter are a bit of a non-starter, because they insist on keeping virtually all settlements, including all of Jerusalem, but instead handing over parts of Israel mainly inhabited by “Israeli Arabs” to the new Palestinian state, a total redrawing of the map and a move no one else is in favour of. Russians, eh?
Four more parties support a two state solution; The United Arab List (4 seats), Hadash (4), Meretz (3) and Balad (3). The UAL and Balad even suggest a rollback to the pre 1967 borders… A rather radical stance. There are also four more nay-saying parties; Shas (11 seats), United Torah Judaism (5), National Union (4) and Jewish Home (3). These four are religious parties mainly catering to orthodox Jews, and Shas more specifically to Sephardic orthodox Jews. Actually, the religious parties have been all over the place, at times in favour, at times opposing a two state solution. Quite many orthodox Jews actually oppose the State of Israel in itself, since it is not supposed to be resurrected until AFTER the Messiah comes. Thus the current secular attempt at resurrecting Israel is by some seen as heresy. But I digress.
If we consider Likud and the religious parties firmly against, Yisrael Beitineu as “neutral” (since their two state solution is so different from every one else’s) and the rest as firmly for, we get 65 Knesset votes for a two state solution, 50 against and YB’s 15 on the sidelines.
ukcanuck wrote: It would change Israel's ability to defend itself as it would have to break international law to meddle in and destabilize its enemy and would basically have to declare war whenever a rocket was launched and targeted at her.

Israel is breaking international law as we speak, and seem pretty comfortable with it.
Obama has afaik still not declared war on Pakistan, but still sent a bunch of drones there, targetting al qaeda and Taliban leaders.
What would Palestinian statehood actually change in this respect, except for Israel having a more established speaking partner? Sure, the Palestinians would have the opportunity to accuse Israelis of war crimes at the ICC, but the Israelis could either choose to try these allegations at home or to refuse to cooperate. In the latter case, those accused may encounter problems travelling abroad, but really, it’s not that big of a risk imho. Bad publicity maybe, but they get that when they bomb civilians as well.
ukcanuck wrote: And more importantly a sovereign Palestinian state would be one step closer to the annihilation of the state of Israel.
A Palestinian state would have to reign in all the rogue militias that create havoc today, so I think Israel would be safer. Furthermore, some 30 nations that today do not recognize the legitimacy of Israel, have stated that they would recognize Israel if there is a peace accord and a Palestinian state is created.
I see the creation of a Palestinian state as a guarantee of Israel’s survival and for its security within internationally recognized borders.
ukcanuck wrote:
And the craziest thing is that the Palestinians really are Jews. :?
A whole lot of Jews fled as the Romans brutally crushed their rebellion. They are the diaspora Jews, many of whom have now returned to the land of their ancestors.
But a whole lot of Jews stayed put. First under Roman rule, then Christian, rule, then Muslim rule. The ones who stayed put are the Palestinians. DNA studies show that some 90% of Palestinians are of Jewish stock, with most of the other 10% having Arab origin, but the Romans, Phoenecians and crusaders probably left their mark too.

Is that in addition to the fact that they are all Semitic and that in reality there is no such thing as a Palestinian since the whole idea of nation states is a western concept and only imposed on the region recently.
Read what I wrote. The studies show their DNA is virtually identical to that of Jews. Palestinians are actually more closely related to Ashkenazi Jews than what Sephardic Jews are… And they’re not quite that close to the Arabs of the Arabian peninsula. The Palestinian DNA seems to be roughly 80-90% Jewish, and the remainder mostly Arab.
Oddly enough both Jews and Arabs seem to be descended from Iraqi Kurds!
I mean, sure, Abraham was Caldean and came from the city of Ur in present day Iraq, but the Kurds are speaking an Indo-european language, not a Semitic one. Either the Abrahamian offspring (Jews through Isaac & Arabs through Ismael) switched to speaking Semitic languages after arriving in Kaanan, I mean the Phoenicians and Kaananites spoke Semitic languages, or the Kurds switched to their current language (reasonably close to Farsi, aka Persian) after Abraham left . The world is full of riddles.
ukcanuck wrote: Arabs are Jews are the real demarcation and when the UN declared Israel a state, the Jews got 10 % of The Middle East and the Arabs got 90% and the aren't happy with that split...

Define Arabs. Define Jews.
Are Arabs defined by blood lines, culture or language? Originally they were a nomadic group on the Arabian peninsula, who suddenly rose to power in the 7th century AD and spread Islam as well as their language throughout Northern Africa, large parts of Asia and smaller parts of Europe. Spain was ruled by them for 700 years. Are the Spanish Arabs? Some of them sure look like it….
The Sicilians are definitely Arabs, albeit they tend to be Christian and speak Italian.
The North Africans (Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco), albeit mostly Muslim and definitely Arabic speaking, have a completely different DNA then the true Arabs and also differ quite a lot from them culturally.
It’s dealt with rather extensively on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_people
They end up with an estimate of roughly 300 million Arabs, but if all Arabic speakers are included, the number goes up to roughly 450 million.
Jews on the other hand total at 13 million (this is of course not including Palestinians) with almost 6 million living in Israel and another 5 million in the USA.
Thus if you say the Arabs only got 90% of the Middle East they totally got robbed! Based on numbers they ought to have received at least 96%!
But just as with Arabs, what is a Jew? Is it defined by ethnicity (ie blood), culture or religion, or a mix thereof? Is a secular Jew a Jew? Is a Christian Jew a Jew? Is a Muslim Jew a Jew?
I personally would like to consider the Palestinians Jews, which would really help the peace process, but unfortunately both the Israelis and the Palestinians choose to ignore the overwhelming genetic evidence. :(
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Re: Gaza Attacks

Postby Per » Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:44 am

And in case you wonder, after two tough months, the budget is done! 8-)
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Re: Gaza Attacks

Postby Per » Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:01 am

Arachnid wrote:
Strangelove wrote:
Arachnid wrote:Obviously der Spiegel has never been to Abbortsford... 8-)


Der Spiegel would LOVE Abbotsford!! :thumbs:

Not Tarrana though, such a dark, dark place you're in good buddy....


If I had a choice, live in the clitoris of Kanada or the rectum... 8-)

...'sides, things just got a whole lot brighter, we just got rid of our mayor and bike lanes! :wave: :rockin: :cheers:

Top that Abortionsfjord!

:?


You got rid of your bike lanes?
What on earth for? :|
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Re: Gaza Attacks

Postby Per » Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:26 am

ukcanuck wrote: I don't know if your familiar with Sharia law, but to put it mildly, you have to be Muslim to even contemplate living under those conditions and wherever Islam is the prevailing religion, sharia law is the rule.

I call BS on this. I mean, sure if you ask them, they will all say their laws are based on sharia, but that's just like saying that something is based on Christian ethics or something. But when we in the west speak of sharia we tend to think of strict enforcement of the rules as they were written in the 7th century. Only a few backward countries do that, and those rules are virtually the same as the mosaic laws in the Old Testament that were valid law in Sweden way into the 18th century... Yup. People got executed for adultery. Just as the Good Book says you should. :?

If you instead look at what the real world looks like, nine Muslim countries (Albania, Azerbaijan, Djibouti, Kosova, Kyrgyzstan, Senegal, Turkey, Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan have abolished capital punishment, two more have abolished it for all crimes but war crimes and another twelve have not carried out any executions in the last ten years. That's out of 49 countries with a Muslim majority.

Now the problem with Islam is that their Westboro Baptists, the Saudi wahabites, happen to sit on a shitload of liquid money. They are one of the most repressive and backward regimes in the world, on par with North Korea, imho. If we could just get rid of the Saudis, things would look so much better.

Turkey is now a stable democracy and negotiating for EU membership. And if the Arab spring doesn't derail completely there may soon be a whole bunch of Muslim democracies surrounding the Mediterranean.

ukcanuck wrote: Actually the solution is simple, one of them has got to go...

I hope you're not saying what it sounds like your saying...
Some version of "final solution"? :crazy:
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Re: Gaza Attacks

Postby ukcanuck » Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:42 am

Per wrote:I think it must be fascinating for those of you who have painted ukcanuck as a radical socialist to see him go all neocon (if not beyond…) on this issue.

I was wondering if anyone would notice...:)




Per wrote: Let’s first see him accuse a solid majority of Israeli Knesset members of treason:

If we consider Likud and the religious parties firmly against, Yisrael Beitineu as “neutral” (since their two state solution is so different from every one else’s) and the rest as firmly for, we get 65 Knesset votes for a two state solution, 50 against and YB’s 15 on the sidelines.


It would seem that some things should not be a free vote in democracies. I wonder though if push came to shove and it was a free vote how it would go, talk is cheap.



ukcanuck wrote: It would change Israel's ability to defend itself as it would have to break international law to meddle in and destabilize its enemy and would basically have to declare war whenever a rocket was launched and targeted at her.

Perhaps I misspoke, what I am trying to say is that Palestine as a state would be more legitimate and therefore Israel's actions in defence of itself would less legitimate by definition. in other words as it stands now it can strictly defined as domestic terrorism. The kind that other countries deal with internally and brook no interference from outsiders... Chechnya for example..

Per wrote: What would Palestinian statehood actually change in this respect, except for Israel having a more established speaking partner? Sure, the Palestinians would have the opportunity to accuse Israelis of war crimes at the ICC, but the Israelis could either choose to try these allegations at home or to refuse to cooperate. In the latter case, those accused may encounter problems travelling abroad, but really, it’s not that big of a risk imho. Bad publicity maybe, but they get that when they bomb civilians as well.

You've just answered your own question. In realistic terms anything that is good for the Arabs is bad for Israel.


ukcanuck wrote: And more importantly a sovereign Palestinian state would be one step closer to the annihilation of the state of Israel.


Per wrote: A Palestinian state would have to reign in all the rogue militias that create havoc today, so I think Israel would be safer.

Those militias are composed of able bodied men I presume and therefore could easily become the source for the new Palestinian armed forces


Per wrote: Furthermore, some 30 nations that today do not recognize the legitimacy of Israel, have stated that they would recognize Israel if there is a peace accord and a Palestinian state is created.

These are the same nations that have also declared that they would not rest until Israel burns...I know if it were me and Canada was the object of such determination I'd be a shitload more truculent too.

Per wrote:I see the creation of a Palestinian state as a guarantee of Israel’s survival and for its security within internationally recognized borders.

Israel already has borders ...

Per wrote:Read what I wrote. The studies show their DNA is virtually identical to that of Jews. Palestinians are actually more closely related to Ashkenazi Jews than what Sephardic Jews are… And they’re not quite that close to the Arabs of the Arabian peninsula. The Palestinian DNA seems to be roughly 80-90% Jewish, and the remainder mostly Arab.
Oddly enough both Jews and Arabs seem to be descended from Iraqi Kurds!
I mean, sure, Abraham was Caldean and came from the city of Ur in present day Iraq, but the Kurds are speaking an Indo-european language, not a Semitic one. Either the Abrahamian offspring (Jews through Isaac & Arabs through Ismael) switched to speaking Semitic languages after arriving in Kaanan, I mean the Phoenicians and Kaananites spoke Semitic languages, or the Kurds switched to their current language (reasonably close to Farsi, aka Persian) after Abraham left . The world is full of riddles.

How true, and interesting and it seems slightly more specific than the fact they are all Semites. However,

Per wrote:Define Arabs. Define Jews.
Are Arabs defined by blood lines, culture or language? (


We could go on and on about who got where first. Some see Jews as recent arrivals and having no claim others point to the bible and conclude the Jews have a prior claim dating back thousands of years...

We could cut to the chase on all of that and look at the state of the Middle East in modern times at the collapse of the Ottoman Empire when the Middle East as a whole fell into the hands of the World War One victors.

At that point, the Arabs the people that live in that region called the Middle East [all the territory south of Turkey and east of the Sinai
And west of Persia ] wanted a pan Arab state.

The fear of a Arab super state with all the resources (diesel fuel for a war machine specifically) and the motivations of Islam is the reason that Britain and France carved it up the way they did and the Balfour declaration of 1917 favouring a Jewish state is the schism to Arabian aspirations.

I think those aspirations are not that far beneath the surface of the Palestinian solution, and I'm willing to bet that if the West's leaders were to be publicly frank about why they support Israel and include its existence as crucial to international security is precisely because they don't see much if any political, social,and cultural difference between the other nations of the Middle East.
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Re: Gaza Attacks

Postby ukcanuck » Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:16 pm

Per wrote:
ukcanuck wrote: I don't know if your familiar with Sharia law, but to put it mildly, you have to be Muslim to even contemplate living under those conditions and wherever Islam is the prevailing religion, sharia law is the rule.

I call BS on this. I mean, sure if you ask them, they will all say their laws are based on sharia, but that's just like saying that something is based on Christian ethics or something. But when we in the west speak of sharia we tend to think of strict enforcement of the rules as they were written in the 7th century. Only a few backward countries do that, and those rules are virtually the same as the mosaic laws in the Old Testament that were valid law in Sweden way into the 18th century... Yup. People got executed for adultery. Just as the Good Book says you should. :?


Living in London among Muslims, modern and progressive Muslims still adhere to Sharia custom if not law. Of course they do not subscribe to the more extreme version, but even the modern take on Sharia is repugnant to modern secularism (specifically feminism. )

Per wrote:
Now the problem with Islam is that their Westboro Baptists, the Saudi wahabites, happen to sit on a shitload of liquid money. They are one of the most repressive and backward regimes in the world, on par with North Korea, imho. If we could just get rid of the Saudis, things would look so much better.

I agree that the Saudi ruling class are bastards and I will take it a step farther, their liquid gold could solve most if not all humanitarian issues in all of the Middle East including the plight of the Palestinians.

Per wrote: Turkey is now a stable democracy and negotiating for EU membership. And if the Arab spring doesn't derail completely there may soon be a whole bunch of Muslim democracies surrounding the Mediterranean.

Turkey the poster child for Islamic moderates ...good luck

Per wrote:
ukcanuck wrote: Actually the solution is simple, one of them has got to go...

I hope you're not saying what it sounds like your saying...
Some version of "final solution"? :crazy:

Of course not, but taking an Israel hard line to its conclusion, the answer would be that eventually when everyone who was alive to remember a time before 1949 has long since passed away (of NATURAL causes,) when the children of the children are adults and are no longer concerned with old causes then they can be slowly assimilated ...re-assimilated to be exact since they are all forgotten Jews anyway...
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Re: Gaza Attacks

Postby donlever » Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:16 pm

Per wrote: You got rid of your bike lanes?
What on earth for? :|


A photographic example of what one would say is a fairly typical display of bike lane use in Vancouver. Certainly there are times when the lanes are used more (like in the 8 weeks of dry weather a year we get) and there are photos on the web demonstrating as much. The benefit to cost to use ratio is highly skewed towards the waste of fucking time and money side of things however.

More often than not traffic is congested/backed up while cars continue to run spewing their emissons into the surrounding world while the bike lanes are minimally used. I say, more pollutants in the air? Mayhap we fucked that up eh wot?!

Millions upon millions of dollars have been spent, small businesses have closed down as streets used for customer parking were changed to bike lanes, the roads have become more dangerous and more congested, road rage is up and travel time to and from anywhere has increased measurably.

All while the cyclists neither have to register, insure or licence their means of transportation. Any dipshit can hop on a bike and weave in and out of traffic, cut both cars and pedestrians off, run orange and red lights, cause accidents that raise my driving costs, flip everyone the bird and then run and hide behind Vancouvers wonderous bike loving mayor.

Gregor thinks our City is in Europe.

Clearly it isn't.

And I think to myself, what a wonderful world....

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Re: Gaza Attacks

Postby Per » Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:20 pm

ukcanuck wrote:
Per wrote: Let’s first see him accuse a solid majority of Israeli Knesset members of treason:

If we consider Likud and the religious parties firmly against, Yisrael Beitineu as “neutral” (since their two state solution is so different from every one else’s) and the rest as firmly for, we get 65 Knesset votes for a two state solution, 50 against and YB’s 15 on the sidelines.


It would seem that some things should not be a free vote in democracies. I wonder though if push came to shove and it was a free vote how it would go, talk is cheap.

:|
So, let me get this straight, you're saying the settler loonie who whacked Israeli PM Rabin after he signed the Oslo Peace Accord was doing the right thing?! :shock:

That's rather shocking. :|

ukcanuck wrote:
Per wrote: A Palestinian state would have to reign in all the rogue militias that create havoc today, so I think Israel would be safer.

Those militias are composed of able bodied men I presume and therefore could easily become the source for the new Palestinian armed forces

And once in the army they would have to obey orders or risk martial court. Effectively reigned in! Check! 8-)

ukcanuck wrote: We could cut to the chase on all of that and look at the state of the Middle East in modern times at the collapse of the Ottoman Empire when the Middle East as a whole fell into the hands of the World War One victors.

At that point, the Arabs the people that live in that region called the Middle East [all the territory south of Turkey and east of the Sinai And west of Persia ] wanted a pan Arab state.

The fear of a Arab super state with all the resources (diesel fuel for a war machine specifically) and the motivations of Islam is the reason that Britain and France carved it up the way they did and the Balfour declaration of 1917 favouring a Jewish state is the schism to Arabian aspirations.

I think those aspirations are not that far beneath the surface of the Palestinian solution, and I'm willing to bet that if the West's leaders were to be publicly frank about why they support Israel and include its existence as crucial to international security is precisely because they don't see much if any political, social,and cultural difference between the other nations of the Middle East.

Yeah, Pan-Arabism was all the vogue in the 1920's, i think Anthony Eden eas one of many suggesting it, and it got a boost from the creation of Israel. But the short-lived union between Syria, Egypt and Iraq proved that it is easier to talk the talk than to ealk the walk. Israel kicking every one's butt in 1967 helped push it even closer to the ashe heap of history, and by the 1980's it was all but forgotten. The last outspoken proponents I can think of are Saddam Hussein and Muammar Khaddafi, and look what happened to them. :hmmm:
Mind you, I guess Assad in Syria is still a Baath party guy. Oh well. His long term prospects look pretty bleak as well. I say that dream is over. And important players like Egypt never really liked the emphasis on Arabs over their glorious past. Many Egyptians like to point out that they had cities and pyramids for millennia before the Arabs stopped living in tents.

And not seeing much difference between the Middle East countries? You must be kidding me! So you think the French-inspired, multi-ethnic Lebanon, a democratic republic, is no different than the dark age totalitarian monarchy of Saudi Arabia, where women aren't allowed to drive, thieves have their hands cut off and adulterers are publicly beheaded? The westernised Qatar with its emphasis on free speech in their world renowned Al Jazeera network no different than Assad's Syria? :|

Wow! :roll:
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Re: Gaza Attacks

Postby Per » Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:24 pm

donlever wrote:
Per wrote: You got rid of your bike lanes?
What on earth for? :|


A photographic example of what one would say is a fairly typical display of bike lane use in Vancouver. Certainly there are times when the lanes are used more (like in the 8 weeks of dry weather a year we get) and there are photos on the web demonstrating as much. The benefit to cost to use ratio is highly skewed towards the waste of fucking time and money side of things however.

More often than not traffic is congested/backed up while cars continue to run spewing their emissons into the surrounding world while the bike lanes are minimally used. I say, more pollutants in the air? Mayhap we fucked that up eh wot?!

Millions upon millions of dollars have been spent, small businesses have closed down as streets used for customer parking were changed to bike lanes, the roads have become more dangerous and more congested, road rage is up and travel time to and from anywhere has increased measurably.

All while the cyclists neither have to register, insure or licence their means of transportation. Any dipshit can hop on a bike and weave in and out of traffic, cut both cars and pedestrians off, run orange and red lights, cause accidents that raise my driving costs, flip everyone the bird and then run and hide behind Vancouvers wonderous bike loving mayor.

Gregor thinks our City is in Europe.

Clearly it isn't.

And I think to myself, what a wonderful world....

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Riding your bike to work is good for your health, your economy and the environment. And in a congested city with limited parking spaces it's often faster than riding your car. But if you don't have bicycle lanes, how will you ever get people to leave their car at home?

I try to take the bike as often as possible, but if I need to pick something/someone up after work i may need the car. Today I took my wife to the train, so I drove, but ended up a bit greener than planned. The tank was empty, so I stopped at a gas station to fill up. After 25 litres I suddenly realised "wait a minute... This car isn't supposed to have ethanol!" i mostly drive our Volvo, which runs on ethanol, but today I had the toyota, which runs on normal gasoline. Shit. Still had room for some 20 litres of gas, so now it's running on half'n'half. :mrgreen:

Shouldn't really be a problem, but I guess it may be a tad harder to start if it gets really cold. The volvo has a block heater, but the toyota doesn't. :hmmm:
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Re: Gaza Attacks

Postby donlever » Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:33 pm

You live in the same dream world our Mayor does (in terms of Vancouver).

I understand the theory.

It ain't happening here though.
A different goddamn hockey talk messageboard!
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Re: Gaza Attacks

Postby Strangelove » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:01 pm

Per wrote:If you don’t know how to use archaic forms – stay the hell away from them! :mad:


FUCKEST THOU!! Image

Per wrote:the Palestinians are as much heirs of Abraham as the European Jews are*. They just switched from Arameic to Arabic in their everyday conversations and started reading the Quran. Is it right to disinherit people just because they switch church? :eh:


The only folks attempting to "disinherit people" in the region are palestinians/arabs, starting with their rejection of the Partition Plan in 1947 in favour of war, and continuing to this day with the targeting of civilians (WAR CRIMES). Maybe if they had not have "switched churches" they may have made different choices. :roll: Israel has been on the defensive from Day One and the enemy is still very determined to "wipe her from the face of the Earth" (how's THAT for "disinheriting"?). Israel has become vastly superior militarily to her arab foes over the decades but that has not changed the fact she has always been willing to co-exist in the Holy Lands. Said foes have not.

If it were her foes who had the military advantage, Israel would be gone, baby, gone.

Now I get that folks tend to have sympathy for the underdog, but C'MON, these particular dogs are bloodthirsty ghouls!

Palestinians?? "Disinherited"??!! :scowl:

They made their choice(s).

Per wrote:If we could just get rid of the Saudis, things would look so much better.


I hope you're not saying what it sounds like you're saying...

Some version of "final solution"? :crazy:



.
Last edited by Strangelove on Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:38 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Gaza Attacks

Postby Strangelove » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:03 pm

Per wrote:I try to take the bike as often as possible


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Re: Gaza Attacks

Postby ukcanuck » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:11 pm

donlever wrote:You live in the same dream world our Mayor does (in terms of Vancouver).

I understand the theory.

It ain't happening here though.

Holy crap I'd heard about the lanes but had not seen one till know...wtf? A body needs a lane that wide???' how wide can one ass get? I thought the lanes would be like three feet- sort of an extra sidewalk width...not half the street!
Anyway You are right about it not catching on and I know exactly why, people live miles from where they work in Vancouver.

Vancouver was built around the car, you'ld need Arachnid to re-socially engineer people's lives first...
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