Gaza Attacks

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Re: Gaza Attacks

Postby ukcanuck » Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:51 pm

Island Nucklehead wrote:
ukcanuck wrote:
Island Nucklehead wrote:It's like your neighbours kid launching rocks from a sling-shot at your house and your response is to pull out the Remington, whack his father, take half his yard as a "slingshot buffer zone", shoot anyone that ventures into your "slingshot buffer zone" and then brag about how measured your response was.

Wouldn't a better analogy be that your neighbour has declared publicly that he will not rest until you are your dead, your family is dead, and that your house be burned down so he can piss on the ashes. He's constantly seen down at the gunship buying, begging, borrowing, and steeling every kind of gun and weapon he can get his hands on. You've seen him over at his other neighbours practicing with pipe bombs and pyro. And his best buddy has been saving up for a bulldozer....
His kid is taking potshots at your windows with his slingshot and you keep having to buy a new cat for your daughter...
The cops are undecided if its really a threat...
And the courts are clogged up years in advance...
What would You do?


Not really. Because you have the biggest and baddest bombs your buddies can buy and can inflict 10x the damage and 100x the casualties. You also have a counter-slingshot system that shoots down almost anything coming near your cats/kids. You already have a few bulldozers that you use to clear out pockets of your neighbours yard for your new sheds that you don't have zoning or building permits for, but your buddy is the mayor and has veto powers on all matters before council. It's actually a pretty swanky scenario. The only thing your really worried about is your neighbours neighbour who has a lot more kids with actual BB guns instead of sling shots, and might be inclined to back the rock launchers.

I think the point is if we're trying to see it from Israel's point of view, considering the holocaust and the pogroms in Russia and the determination (until recently if you believe it) by the Arabs to annihilate Israel, one shouldn't be surprised by their siege mentality and I'm not sure I blame em either...

ukcanuck wrote:I think it would be treasonous for any Israeli leader to agree to a two state solution, an internationally recognized Palestinian sovereign state would then have a legitimate foreign policy and have the right to legally wage war.


The alternatives are just more of the same. And realistically, the Arab spring has changed the regional dynamics. American influence isn't what it used to be. Egypt is playing nice for now, but the plight of the Palestinians is a sore spot for most, and with more countries recognizing Hamas, it's going to be a lot harder to ignore them.

It's just way too easy to say Israel should lighten up when we wouldn't have to live with the consequences of being wrong. In other words the margin of error is not worth taking the risk that anything has changed from the Arabs.

It would change Israel's ability to defend itself as it would have to break international law to meddle in and destabilize its enemy and would basically have to declare war whenever a rocket was launched and targeted at her.


Not really. If a Palestinian state decided to attack Israel, they would be more than justified (a real self defence scenario under Article 51 of the UN charter) in crushing it using extreme force. There are also numerous groups operating in Gaza, many more extreme than Hamas, and the thought of a Palestinian state (with security services of its own) might be easier to a) police itself and b) target in the event they do act in a hostile manner.

Right now Israel doesn't need any permission, excuse, justification, or world opinion, because Gaza is not a nation and Palestine does not have a legal definition. The nation of Palestine on the other hand has legitimacy and makes things a lot more complicated, there just is zero upside for Israel IMO.

And more importantly a sovereign Palestinian state would be one step closer to the annihilation of the state of Israel.


I would guess that any two-state solution would include the Palestinians recognizing Israels right to exist, and have agreed upon borders, otherwise Israel wouldn't sign. Iran, Iraq, Syria, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Yemen and Lebanon don't recognize Israel as a state, and yet Israel still exists. I don't think the Palestinians are going to change that (state or not). In fact, having a resolution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict could push other nations to recognize (or at least warm up to the idea of recognizing) Israel, as well as relieve a lot of the hate for Washington in the region.

As far as I can see the status quo and a continuos pressure on Palestinians until there is no longer a Palestinian identity to along with no Palestine as a place is the only course that guarantees Israel's survival. Every other solution has a too uncertain an outcome if you have everything to lose...


Except that the Muslims out number the Jews by a margin and I don't know if your familiar with Sharia law, but to put it mildly, you have to be Muslim to even contemplate living under those conditions and wherever Islam is the prevailing religion, sharia law is the rule.


Turkey says hi.

Lol yeah they sure are struggling to keep it out of the equation though, and I'm betting outside of the major cities its Sharia all the way ....
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Re: Gaza Attacks

Postby Island Nucklehead » Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:40 am

ukcanuck wrote:It's just way too easy to say Israel should lighten up when we wouldn't have to live with the consequences of being wrong. In other words the margin of error is not worth taking the risk that anything has changed from the Arabs.


The one way to guarantee nothing changes is by keeping the status quo. Obviously there are some on both sides that would prefer a small war every couple years, but I would imagine most would prefer a lasting peace.

Right now Israel doesn't need any permission, excuse, justification, or world opinion, because Gaza is not a nation and Palestine does not have a legal definition. The nation of Palestine on the other hand has legitimacy and makes things a lot more complicated, there just is zero upside for Israel IMO.


Cuts both ways. If Palestine is a state it is held responsible for its actions. Right now groups like Islamic Jihad can fire off rockets without worry, because nobody is going to hold them accountable, short of another mini-war. The people of Gaza get hammered by Israeli bombs, and more are turned to their cause. Cycle continues. A Palestinian state, recognizing Israel, would be able to have a trained (quite small) military of its own, that could ensure these groups are pushed out. It's no secret that the biggest threat to Israel these days is not traditional militaries, but groups bent on terror attacks.

As far as I can see the status quo and a continuos pressure on Palestinians until there is no longer a Palestinian identity to along with no Palestine as a place is the only course that guarantees Israel's survival. Every other solution has a too uncertain an outcome if you have everything to lose...


So ethnic cleansing? Who's the Nazi now?
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Re: Gaza Attacks

Postby Lancer » Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:13 am

ukcanuck wrote:As far as I can see the status quo and a continuos pressure on Palestinians until there is no longer a Palestinian identity to along with no Palestine as a place is the only course that guarantees Israel's survival. Every other solution has a too uncertain an outcome if you have everything to lose...


Whoa, easy there Bibi... much as I want easy solutions like anyone else, that 'final solution' creates more problems than it solves. Erasing all Palestinians from Palestine and making one homogenous Jewish state does two things: enrages the arab world - even the moderates (with good reason); and destabilizes the region with the influx of Palestinian refugees.

Frankly, a two-state solution is the only practicable option. Israel cannot make Palestine part of Israel because if Palestinians were made citizens there would demographically cease to be a Jewish state. You can't ethnically cleanse Palestine, no matter how much the settlers would wish it so.

To get there, though, you have to deal with legitimate government entities in Palestine - and Hamas has proven time and again that it cannot behave as such. The West Bank and Fatah are trying, if only Israel would truly empower them to become and behave like such a state - and continued settlement-building doesn't help.

People (especially Gazans) have to look at the West Bank and seriously ask themselves why the West Bankers under Fatah are living better lives than Gazans under Hamas. Gazans don't have to suffer this way. They don't have to love Israel or Jews, but they have to stop attacking them and then cry when Israel predictably and justifiably pounds the snot out of them.

Israel doesn't help sometimes, but the solution is easy: Palestinians have to get their act together, behave like a viable state and advance their agenda through diplomacy and negotiation vice launching rockets.

Too bad Hamas and Iran are more interested in a 'final solution' of their own.
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Re: Gaza Attacks

Postby Topper » Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:26 am

Convince the Palestinians to emigrate to Germany, Eastern Europe and Russia.

Go back to where the Israeli Jews came from....

Easy.
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Re: Gaza Attacks

Postby ukcanuck » Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:41 am

Island Nucklehead wrote:
So ethnic cleansing? Who's the Nazi now?


Ethnic cleansing by wholesale mass murder is what the Nazi's did, to suggest that's what the Israelis are doing is a little over the top.

It's been made absolutely clear over two thousand years that there is no where else on earth for the race and religion of Judaism that offers them safety. It's their last stand. They cannot afford to lose.

For the palestinians, they have other places to go, the rest of the middle east is the same ethnically and religiously, they could easily be absorbed into the rest of the Arab world if there was a will for it.

Thats the essential piece of the puzzle that easily gets forgotten by us in the west. All the countries in the Middle East are barely 100 years old. Until the Europeans came along and drew lines on a map there were no Palestinians or Jordanians or Syrians etc, No nation states and particularly, no national Palestinian consciousness.

The fact that the people in Gaza and The West Bank are suffering in poverty while the rest of the Arab world are rolling in oil royalties makes one wonder if the whole thing isn't a political convenience

We watch and are horrified and the Arabs gain political points
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Re: Gaza Attacks

Postby ukcanuck » Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:46 am

Topper wrote:Convince the Palestinians to emigrate to Germany, Eastern Europe and Russia.

Go back to where the Israeli Jews came from....

Easy.

As far as Israel is concerned im sure they don't have to go that far, just across the Jordan river will do .
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Re: Gaza Attacks

Postby Hoss » Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:27 pm

If its true that 90% of the Palestinians are of Jewish stock than WTF does that say about two opposing worldviews/religions?

Wiener, spineless western liberals love to pick the Palestinian horse. I think its been fairly clear that Islam has become diametrically opposed to Western-style civilization, so you're humping an animal that wants to eat your dumb ass.

But in the name of political correctness there's plenty of copping out - why call it like you see it if it would offend those poor backwards little Muslims? I mean, their views are perfectly respectable and don't conflict with our own, right?

I'm going to go eat some leftover pork before I get to the turkey. Ah pig, so delicious and so very forbidden.
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Re: Gaza Attacks

Postby Lancer » Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:43 pm

ukcanuck wrote:For the palestinians, they have other places to go, the rest of the middle east is the same ethnically and religiously, they could easily be absorbed into the rest of the Arab world if there was a will for it.


I call BS on that. Jordan has no interest in taking on more Palestinians, just as they aren't really cool with the influx of Syrians with what's going on in Syria. Palestinians are not Jordanians, nor are they Lebanese or Egyptians. There are clear ethnic differences, no matter the commonality of faith. That's why there are massive and problematic Palestinian refugee camps dotted outside of Israel's borders. None of those countries are especially rich, and to have even more Palestinian refugees show up at their doorstep would be destabilizing to say the least. Deporting them is not the answer and would make matters worse.

Like it or not, Israel has to politically and diplomatically deal with a Palestinian nation that lives in Gaza and the West Bank. Whether they deal with a Palestinian state is as much up to Palestinians as it is anyone else.
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Re: Gaza Attacks

Postby Cornuck » Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:10 pm

ukcanuck wrote:For the palestinians, they have other places to go, the rest of the middle east is the same ethnically and religiously, they could easily be absorbed into the rest of the Arab world if there was a will for it.


Just like the Canadians could be easily absorbed into the US...Irish into England, etc... as long as the colour matches.
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Re: Gaza Attacks

Postby ukcanuck » Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:13 pm

Lancer wrote:
I call BS on that. Jordan has no interest in taking on more Palestinians, just as they aren't really cool with the influx of Syrians with what's going on in Syria. Palestinians are not Jordanians, nor are they Lebanese or Egyptians.

I agree that now that the lines in the map are there it changes things and that the going concern in these new nations have motives of their own.

There are clear ethnic differences, no matter the commonality of faith. That's why there are massive and problematic Palestinian refugee camps dotted outside of Israel's borders. None of those countries are especially rich, and to have even more Palestinian refugees show up at their doorstep would be destabilizing to say the least. Deporting them is not the answer and would make matters worse.

What clear ethnic differences are you talking about,they are all Semitic, Arab and Muslim and almost all Sunni. These countries did not even exist barely one hundred years ago?


Like it or not, Israel has to politically and diplomatically deal with a Palestinian nation that lives in Gaza and the West Bank. Whether they deal with a Palestinian state is as much up to Palestinians as it is anyone else.

Personally, I don't really like it one way or the other. I'd prefer peace and a solution for everyone. I despise seeing dead children on the front page of the paper in the morning. Quite frankly I'd rather have the NHL lockout as headlines, but to get peace, Israel's position has to be understood and as it stands right now any plan that includes a Palestinian state is a theoretical nonstarter.
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Re: Gaza Attacks

Postby ukcanuck » Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:18 pm

Cornuck wrote:
ukcanuck wrote:For the palestinians, they have other places to go, the rest of the middle east is the same ethnically and religiously, they could easily be absorbed into the rest of the Arab world if there was a will for it.


Just like the Canadians could be easily absorbed into the US...Irish into England, etc... as long as the colour matches.

The Irish will not be absorbed by anyone ever, and who would want them?
But in this case it's a matter of practicality because Israel ain't going anywhere soon.
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Re: Gaza Attacks

Postby Lancer » Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:52 pm

ukcanuck wrote:What clear ethnic differences are you talking about,they are all Semitic, Arab and Muslim and almost all Sunni. These countries did not even exist barely one hundred years ago?


Ask an Egyptian if they feel Palestinians are the same as them. I worked with an Egyptian, and they have a pretty strong ethnic/national identity. They have enough problems accepting Bedouin in the Sinai (and vice versa) without accepting Palestinians into their borders. They have enough problems of their own.

Jordan's been a Kingdom for most of the modern century, but even before there were tribal affiliations and affinities that defined the nation during Ottoman times - bonds that didn't and don't extend to Palestine. Jordan's fiscal realities are such that Jordanians aren't comfy with anyone showing up at their doorstep - arab sunni or not.

Lebanon is such an ethnic/religious plurality it's a wonder it's managed to maintain its stability for the past 5 years. Now you want to say to them that there's no difference from a Druze, a Maronite, a Shia and a Palestinian? See how far you get with that bunch with the "well you guys are all the same anyway, what's a couple million more folks in your borders?" argument.

Don't get me started with Syria...

ukcanuck wrote:Quite frankly I'd rather have the NHL lockout as headlines, but to get peace, Israel's position has to be understood and as it stands right now any plan that includes a Palestinian state is a theoretical nonstarter.


Well, dispossessing the Palestinians and occupying the West Bank and Gaza with neo-settlers would be a theoretical non-starter for most of the world for good reason. The Palestinians are not going to go away. You have to deal with them where they are. Unless Israel wants to absorb a bunch of Jew-hating Palestinians into the Israeli polity as part of a one-state solution (another non-starter), you'd best get comfy with a two-state solution.

Anybody else have another way, let me know. While you're at it, you can Cc Clinton, Moon, Morsi, Netanyahu and Abbas. :roll:
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Re: Gaza Attacks

Postby ukcanuck » Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:55 pm

Lancer wrote:
ukcanuck wrote:What clear ethnic differences are you talking about,they are all Semitic, Arab and Muslim and almost all Sunni. These countries did not even exist barely one hundred years ago?


Ask an Egyptian if they feel Palestinians are the same as them. I worked with an Egyptian, and they have a pretty strong ethnic/national identity. They have enough problems accepting Bedouin in the Sinai (and vice versa) without accepting Palestinians into their borders. They have enough problems of their own.


I was under the impression that Egypt was a part of Africa...not the Middle East.

Jordan's been a Kingdom for most of the modern century, but even before there were tribal affiliations and affinities that defined the nation during Ottoman times - bonds that didn't and don't extend to Palestine. Jordan's fiscal realities are such that Jordanians aren't comfy with anyone showing up at their doorstep - arab sunni or not.

Not sure what modern century means but independent Jordan was 1951, before then it was a protectorate of the British Palestinian mandate. Carved out of unincorporated (to use a western term) territory gained from the collapse of the Ottoman Empire.

The affiliation to the Turks you mention was more like an occupation complete with a revolt by the Arabs living under ottoman rule in 1916 when the Arabs tried to establish a single Arab state that would have stretched from the north of Syria to the southern tip of Saudi Arabia.



Lebanon is such an ethnic/religious plurality it's a wonder it's managed to maintain its stability for the past 5 years. Now you want to say to them that there's no difference from a Druze, a Maronite, a Shia and a Palestinian? See how far you get with that bunch with the "well you guys are all the same anyway, what's a couple million more folks in your borders?" argument.
[/quote]

Another modern state that has no natural seminal background...

Don't get me started with Syria...[/ quote]
I agree that is a particular nasty can of worms there...

ukcanuck wrote:Quite frankly I'd rather have the NHL lockout as headlines, but to get peace, Israel's position has to be understood and as it stands right now any plan that includes a Palestinian state is a theoretical nonstarter.


Well, dispossessing the Palestinians and occupying the West Bank and Gaza with neo-settlers would be a theoretical non-starter for most of the world for good reason.


Non Starter or not its happening as we speak, with the settlement programs in occupied territory by Israel it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what the intention is...
whether it will backfire or not I don't know but I know if it were my call its what I would do too. It's the smart play from a zero sum point of view...

The Palestinians are not going to go away. You have to deal with them where they are. Unless Israel wants to absorb a bunch of Jew-hating Palestinians into the Israeli polity as part of a one-state solution (another non-starter), you'd best get comfy with a two-state solution.


I could see some sort of financial compensation for the Arab individuals who lost physical property in the original UN mandate coming from the Jews and Americans and British and French governments and really it is within the ability of the Arab elite to spread their wealth a little better as well..

[/quote]
Anybody else have another way, let me know. While you're at it, you can Cc Clinton, Moon, Morsi, Netanyahu and Abbas. :roll:

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Re: Gaza Attacks

Postby ukcanuck » Thu Nov 22, 2012 3:42 pm

Taken from another site...
" It seems every religion has it nuts it fanatics. Muslims , Christians,Jews,etc.

Here is some interesting information.


"OCCUPATION" of the area popularly called the "west bank"
1,456 BC ISRAEL SOVEREIGN JEWISH NATION
1,060 BC ISRAEL &JUDEA SOVEREIGN JEWISH NATIONS
733 BC Assyria OCCUPIED Israel (northern part of "west bank" and Israel)
609 BC Babylon OCCUPIED Israel (National name "Israel," area name "Samaria")
587 BC Babylon OCCUPIED Israel and Judea (now called Israel and the "west bank")
539 BC Persia OCCUPIED Israel and Judea
333 BC Greece OCCUPIED Israel and Judea
312 BC Egypt OCCUPIED Israel and Judea
102 BC Rome OCCUPIED Israel and Judea
337 AD Byzantium OCCUPIED Israel and Judea
638 AD Muslims OCCUPIED Israel and Judea
975 AD Byzantium OCCUPIED Israel and Judea
1071 AD Turks OCCUPIED Israel and Judea
1099 AD Crusaders OCCUPIED Israel and Judea
1190 AD Muslims OCCUPIED Israel and Judea
1204 AD Crusaders OCCUPIED Israel and Judea
1263 AD Mamelukes OCCUPIED Israel and Judea
1453 AD Ottomans OCCUPIED Israel and Judea
1917 AD England OCCUPIED Israel and Judea
1920 AD Homeland for the Jews in Palestine mandated by League of Nations
1948 AD I ISRAELI INDEPENDENCE in Israel and Judea
1948 AD Jordan Attacked and drove out the Jews and OCCUPIED Israel and Judea
1967 AD ISRAEL CONTROLS ALL OF ISRAEL and JUDEA after 2,700 years of foreign occupation. BUT THEY GAVE CONTROL OF THE TEMPLE MOUNT TO MUSLIMS.
As you can see above the last sovereign nations in the area called "Palestine" were Judea and Israel. Since the "Israel and Judea were taken over, beginning in 733 BC, the area has been "occupied," When the Jews return and set up a nation in the same area, how can it be called an occupation?
Please look carefully at the occupiers. Please tell me when "Palestinians" became the natives of the area?

Who were the "Palestinians" in 1948?
Everyone living in the area (Jews, Christians and Muslims) were called "Palestinians" in 1948. However, the Arabs identified themselves with a larger Arab "nation" that existed in much of Africa and the Middle East, and at that time they preferred to be called "Arabs."

Many Arabs living in "Palestine" were born elsewhere, For example, the census of 1931 in the Jerusalem region included Muslims born in Albania, Algeria, Australia, Central America, Central Asiatic Territories, Cyprus, Egypt, Far Eastern Asia, France, Greece, Hejez-Nejd, Indian Continent, Iraq, Morocco, Persia (Iran), South America, Spain, Syria, Transjordan, Tripoli, Tunis, Turkey, UK, USA, USSR, Yemen, Other Arabian Territories, Other African Territories. (see From Time Immemorial, by Joan Peters, p. 227)

It is not surprising, then, that the United Nation's definition of "refugees" was changed from people forced to leave "permanent" or "habitual" homes, to persons who had been in "Palestine" for as little as two years. (see From Time Immemorial. by Joan Peters, p. 4)
Only in 1964, when the PLO was formed did Arabs choose to be called "Palestinians." In this way they made It seem that they were native to the area and that all of Palestine belonged to them. (Apparently they thought westerners were too uninformed and shallow to notice the switch. Were they right?)_"

Since there was a continuous Jewish presence in Judea and Samaria for some 3,500 years, when and how did this become Arab land?

And how can Jews returning to well-known Jewish towns such as Shilo and Hebron be called "settlers"? How can Jews living anywhere in this land that was their sovereign nation until it was occupied by foreign powers for 2,700 years be called "settlers"? The words "occupation" and "settlers" do not line up with the facts. When the wrong words are used, justice becomes impossible.

By the way, 80% of "Palestine" is already under Arab rule, while Arabs are only 55% of the population. Pundits and government officials think nothing of demanding that Jewish people uproot themselves and move out of areas they have inhabited for 3,500 years, turning their homes and businesses over to Arabs who already have more than their fair share of "Palestine:'

Yet were we to suggest that Arabs who don't want to live under Jewish rule, or who refuse to live peacefully in autonomous areas, uproot themselves and move to the 80% of "Palestine" that is already under Arab rule, we would be seen as wild-eyed radicals. Why is this? Please explain this to me? Terrorists are "terrorists" everywhere except Israel. And it's OK to uproot Jews, but not Arabs. How can we account for this? "
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Re: Gaza Attacks

Postby Cornuck » Thu Nov 22, 2012 3:52 pm

So the native americans have every right (but not the means) to resettle North America and put us in reserations? :?
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