There will be a strike

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Blob Mckenzie
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Re: There will be a strike

Post by Blob Mckenzie »

Mondi wrote:
Gary Bettman is an idiot, and so are the people supporting the owners, however the people supporting the players are as dumb as a sack of hammers and they make the owner supporters look fairly cunning in comparison. Neither side deserves support in this ridiculous situation.

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Re: There will be a strike

Post by Strangelove »

Mondi wrote: If Bettman was truly a smart guy, he'd have brokered a deal a long time ago using collaborative techniques so that both sides walked away from the table happy with the outcome.
*Strangelove shows up dressed as the dread pirate Roberts*

Nice Mondi, no one, including Bettman, could even imagine that POSSIBILITY!

Wow, must be nice to be a super-genius.

Yes, it's truly a shame Bettman isn't Mondi-smart....
Mondi wrote: Gary Bettman is an idiot


*pulls out packet of Iocaine powder....*
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Re: There will be a strike

Post by Strangelove »

okcanuck wrote:
Blob Mckenzie wrote:Bettman is an ivy league grad . White probably has a grade 10 education at best. Bettman must be the idiot. :roll:
An ivy league degree doesn't necessarily make you a good commissioner of the NHL. His background is round-ball .He should of stayed with the NBA. As a matter of fact the NHL was perking along quite well until that "genius" showed up.
So you were happy with the previous ivy league grad, American lawyer Gil Stein running things?

And yankee John Ziegler before that?

For what it's worth, Bettman was a Big Red season ticket holder for four years at Cornell.

And I could be wrong but I thought I read once he was a Ranger fan growing up.

Doesn't matter though, it's always gonna be "lonely at the top"....
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Re: There will be a strike

Post by Tiger »

Mondi said:
One thing I can guarantee you, I'd be less pigheaded and egotistical than either Fehr or Bettman. And from the sidelines, I can tell you that it looks like some humility and collaboration would help this situation greatly.

Your faith in free markets and unrestrained capitalism means you're an owners guy, that's fine for you and other every-man-for-himselfer. Just pile onside with the richest businessmen, they are the smartest and most worthy anyway aren't they SL? But, for the thoughtful folk out there, there is a deal that would make both sides happy and wouldn't require the mindset that one side has the crush the other.

I mean if only everyone was SL-smart, the selfless people would just be dead or at least serving their aggressive Friedmanite masters.
So, the owners want to cut salaries and the players want more .. nothing selfless there.. and Darwin is right .. The fittest survive.. so both sides hire "gunslingers".. Bettman and Fehr..not nice guys ( Nice guys finish last ).. Bettman didn't put the southern franchises in place but he is trying to keep them going ... Thats the NHL owners decision.. So the only way most of the fringe franchises can keep going is if costs are cut and revenue sharing is raised.. Of course both the owners of those franchises and the players benefit .. If the teams folded owners go broke and less jobs for players.. The only question is how much of a deficit some of these teams will have and for how long and how much the NHL will subsidize them.. The one major cost is players salaries .. which in spite of the salary cap went up in the last few years.. Now is the time to make a long term agreement so that the NHL is a viable growing entity.. That will take a small sacrifice on the players part and on the owners of the "rich" franchises too. More money in the transfer fund and a little less % of revenue for the players.. YEP ITS CALLED FREE ENTERPRISE.. Don't look for any altruism on either side.. its a question of surviving for the money losing franchises and greed on the part of the "rich" owners and the players .. Meantime the gunslingers are shooting ..
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Re: There will be a strike

Post by Per »

I believe in the free market. The problem is that the NHL is not about free market capitalism, it's about collussion.
The courts in Europe ruled decades ago that a team cannot claim to own a player they have not signed to a contract. In the NHL they still do that. If any player, regardless of age etc, not under contract was considered a free agent, then we get a free market where players and owners can negotiate the terms on equal footing.

What we have today is a contorted market where the owners collude so that only one team will negotiate with any given player (apart from those considered free agents). This gives the owners an unfair advantage, since the players have very little choice but to accept whatever they are offered. In the real world, if you're not happy with the offer you get, you look for employment elsewhere. In hockey, so far, there's not really been another option for a star player than the NHL.

Anyone believing in free markets should oppose what Bettman and his ilk are doing. The NHL system is actually more related to serfdom or slavery. And yes, they are fortunate slaves, that can lead a far better life than either of us, but they're still not free. The teams own them. Whether they sign that contract or not.
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Re: There will be a strike

Post by Tiger »

Per wrote:I believe in the free market. The problem is that the NHL is not about free market capitalism, it's about collussion.
The courts in Europe ruled decades ago that a team cannot claim to own a player they have not signed to a contract. In the NHL they still do that. If any player, regardless of age etc, not under contract was considered a free agent, then we get a free market where players and owners can negotiate the terms on equal footing.

What we have today is a contorted market where the owners collude so that only one team will negotiate with any given player (apart from those considered free agents). This gives the owners an unfair advantage, since the players have very little choice but to accept whatever they are offered. In the real world, if you're not happy with the offer you get, you look for employment elsewhere. In hockey, so far, there's not really been another option for a star player than the NHL.

Anyone believing in free markets should oppose what Bettman and his ilk are doing. The NHL system is actually more related to serfdom or slavery. And yes, they are fortunate slaves, that can lead a far better life than either of us, but they're still not free. The teams own them. Whether they sign that contract or not.
And the KHL has a cap system too... and a draft.. The other leagues pay peanuts.. Open bidding for players would mean only the very rich clubs.. Rangers, Laffs etc.. would be viable contenders and most of the other teams would fold.. Is that what you want??
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Re: There will be a strike

Post by ukcanuck »

Hmm could I have been ahead of the curve, seems like support for Bettman and his saving the league from the greedy players might be wavering?

The fact that the lockout continues is more proof that there is only one solution for Bettman and that's the one where he wins every concession he was after to begin with.

If I'm Fehr I say no and no and still no as long as the players resolve holds there is no deal to be had from Bettman until a gun is at Bettman's head.

That gun is coming soon...

Topper, you figure the southern expansion was in play before Bettman but only three teams were added before Bettman, while Nashville, Columbus, Atlanta and Minnesota are all on his watch, plus the relocation to Dallas, Colorado, Carolina and Phoenix are his too. He may have come in after the move to expand was on the way but it was his mandate to continue it a d its not exactly been aces all around...
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Re: There will be a strike

Post by ukcanuck »

Per wrote:I believe in the free market. The problem is that the NHL is not about free market capitalism, it's about collussion.
The courts in Europe ruled decades ago that a team cannot claim to own a player they have not signed to a contract. In the NHL they still do that. If any player, regardless of age etc, not under contract was considered a free agent, then we get a free market where players and owners can negotiate the terms on equal footing.

What we have today is a contorted market where the owners collude so that only one team will negotiate with any given player (apart from those considered free agents). This gives the owners an unfair advantage, since the players have very little choice but to accept whatever they are offered. In the real world, if you're not happy with the offer you get, you look for employment elsewhere. In hockey, so far, there's not really been another option for a star player than the NHL.

Anyone believing in free markets should oppose what Bettman and his ilk are doing. The NHL system is actually more related to serfdom or slavery. And yes, they are fortunate slaves, that can lead a far better life than either of us, but they're still not free. The teams own them. Whether they sign that contract or not.
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Re: There will be a strike

Post by the Dogsalmon »

this is just all too clear to me...UKcanuck and Per are hell bent on creating a socialist monster out of the NHL...we can call it the ESHL(European Socialist Hockey League)...these two are out for world domination...hide your assets capitalists as its all happening before our eyes on this board...
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Re: There will be a strike

Post by ukcanuck »

Tiger wrote:
Per wrote:I believe in the free market. The problem is that the NHL is not about free market capitalism, it's about collussion.
The courts in Europe ruled decades ago that a team cannot claim to own a player they have not signed to a contract. In the NHL they still do that. If any player, regardless of age etc, not under contract was considered a free agent, then we get a free market where players and owners can negotiate the terms on equal footing.

What we have today is a contorted market where the owners collude so that only one team will negotiate with any given player (apart from those considered free agents). This gives the owners an unfair advantage, since the players have very little choice but to accept whatever they are offered. In the real world, if you're not happy with the offer you get, you look for employment elsewhere. In hockey, so far, there's not really been another option for a star player than the NHL.

Anyone believing in free markets should oppose what Bettman and his ilk are doing. The NHL system is actually more related to serfdom or slavery. And yes, they are fortunate slaves, that can lead a far better life than either of us, but they're still not free. The teams own them. Whether they sign that contract or not.

And the KHL has a cap system too... and a draft.. The other leagues pay peanuts.. Open bidding for players would mean only the very rich clubs.. Rangers, Laffs etc.. would be viable contenders and most of the other teams would fold.. Is that what you want??
actually the KHL cap is about 40 + million and the NHL wants what 50 something? sounds like if they get what they want the NHL will not necessarily be where you will find ALL the best players...
Do you want a stanley cup championship that may or may not be the best team in the world??
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Re: There will be a strike

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Per wrote:I believe in the free market. The problem is that the NHL is not about free market capitalism, it's about collussion.
We keep using the word "collusion" improperly. The NHL is made up of 1 league, with 30 franchises. The NHL itself is a monopolistic structure. Collusion can only exist in an oligopoly. It would be akin to accusing all of the MacDonalds franchises of "fixing" the wages of employees at minimum wage, which is just a company policy (probably unwritten too).

The free market in hockey exists, where players are allowed to play in any league in the world that they choose. Most just happen to choose the one with the highest paying jobs.

Collusion would be if all the leagues got together to "fix" wages. The SEL and KHL would laugh at such an attempt.
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Re: There will be a strike

Post by Tciso »

ukcanuck wrote:actually the KHL cap is about 40 + million and the NHL wants what 50 something? sounds like if they get what they want the NHL will not necessarily be where you will find ALL the best players...
Do you want a stanley cup championship that may or may not be the best team in the world??
I could care less. If other countries can afford to pay players more that we do here, then that competition is good for the players, and that is the leverage they need to have ownership pay more. If an owner in Omsk want to pay the Columbus Blue Jackets players more than Columbus wants to pay them, then let's axe a team in the NHL, and let them play in the KHL.

After this strike is over, and as the KHL pays players more, the owners will come to their own "fiscal cliff". The NHL has been all about maximizing revenue, but if other leagues start to compete for players, the NHL might finally be about maximizing profits, which is what all businesses are supposed to be about. If/when this occurs, the teams that are costing the league $$ may finally get flushed or moved. The NHL will end up stronger if this happens.
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Re: There will be a strike

Post by ukcanuck »

Tciso wrote:
ukcanuck wrote:actually the KHL cap is about 40 + million and the NHL wants what 50 something? sounds like if they get what they want the NHL will not necessarily be where you will find ALL the best players...
Do you want a stanley cup championship that may or may not be the best team in the world??
I could care less. If other countries can afford to pay players more that we do here, then that competition is good for the players, and that is the leverage they need to have ownership pay more. If an owner in Omsk want to pay the Columbus Blue Jackets players more than Columbus wants to pay them, then let's axe a team in the NHL, and let them play in the KHL.

After this strike is over, and as the KHL pays players more, the owners will come to their own "fiscal cliff". The NHL has been all about maximizing revenue, but if other leagues start to compete for players, the NHL might finally be about maximizing profits, which is what all businesses are supposed to be about. If/when this occurs, the teams that are costing the league $$ may finally get flushed or moved. The NHL will end up stronger if this happens.
I don't care either, thats why I don't see the logical reason why there should be an artificial drag on salaries in the first place, let it all sink or swim on its own merit period, players, teams, leagues, owners, etc
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Re: There will be a strike

Post by Blob Mckenzie »

ukcanuck wrote:Hmm could I have been ahead of the curve
No
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Re: There will be a strike

Post by ukcanuck »

Blob Mckenzie wrote:
ukcanuck wrote:Hmm could I have been ahead of the curve
No
well I know you and I aren't on the same curve, unless its deadman's curve on the way to the pits of hell lol
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