Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby RoyalDude » Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:03 am

Aaronp18 wrote:
RoyalDude wrote:I missed the overtime of the Abbotsford Heat game last night, can anybody tell me who won and who scored the winning goal?


I missed the game on Friday, can anyone tell me how many goals the Barons scored?


Ya no, the Heat shit canned the Barons that night, I was just wondering who won the 2nd game and who scored the OT goal, do you know?
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby Blob Mckenzie » Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:23 am

RoyalDude wrote:Seriously Coast Meridian Blobby, I think this Canuck bunch has two good years left in them. I don't doubt for a minute that they will finish tops of the league, they will still continue to struggle bulging the twine, rippling the mesh. But they will continue to eek out the wins, but once the Sisters start hitting mid 30's we are in deep cow dung cause we got nothing in the way of high end NHL talent waiting in the wings, brewing on the farm if ya dig. Thats my beef. The Gillis management team has created a serious void in the next wave. We've had a good run of torch passing for more than a decade starting with the Bure/Linden years, then the Naslund/Bertuzzi years then the Sedin years, but who is next Blobby? Who do ya see capable of taking the torch from the sisters? Nada, nobody, zilcho damilcho. That is my beef with Gillis, he has severed the chain with his poor drafting and developing. Trust me my man, Kassian, Jensens and Gaunce will not keep this team in prominentville hockey. Unless Gillis is able to get back a top notch prospect/pick from a Lou trade we might avoid Jack Gordon like hockey, but if not, this team is heading for some serious dark days of hockey once again. All because of Gillis.


Does the phrase "salary cap space" mean anything to you ?
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby RoyalDude » Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:22 am

Blob Mckenzie wrote:
RoyalDude wrote:Seriously Coast Meridian Blobby, I think this Canuck bunch has two good years left in them. I don't doubt for a minute that they will finish tops of the league, they will still continue to struggle bulging the twine, rippling the mesh. But they will continue to eek out the wins, but once the Sisters start hitting mid 30's we are in deep cow dung cause we got nothing in the way of high end NHL talent waiting in the wings, brewing on the farm if ya dig. Thats my beef. The Gillis management team has created a serious void in the next wave. We've had a good run of torch passing for more than a decade starting with the Bure/Linden years, then the Naslund/Bertuzzi years then the Sedin years, but who is next Blobby? Who do ya see capable of taking the torch from the sisters? Nada, nobody, zilcho damilcho. That is my beef with Gillis, he has severed the chain with his poor drafting and developing. Trust me my man, Kassian, Jensens and Gaunce will not keep this team in prominentville hockey. Unless Gillis is able to get back a top notch prospect/pick from a Lou trade we might avoid Jack Gordon like hockey, but if not, this team is heading for some serious dark days of hockey once again. All because of Gillis.


Does the phrase "salary cap space" mean anything to you ?


Well, if we didn't have the likes of uselessness in Booth and Ballard wasting a lot of salary cap space I'd might fee better about things. I agree that the system of the Salary Cap levels the playing field in acquiring talent but ya still need those good young cheap players coming up through the system to help offset being jammed up against the cap. Also, having good young players coming up through the system puts a manager in a position of power when it comes to trading, making current expensive core veterans expendable to make room for the young and bringing back cheaper, younger talent from that in a trade. The cycle of hockey team managing life. Gillis hasn't quite figured it out. This very thing made it easier for Holmgren to dish Richards and Carter for good young talent when he had good young Philly draft picks ready for prime time in Giroux and Van Reimsdyk.
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby Strangelove » Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:22 pm

And… yawn, fart… the dude’s attempts to drown common sense in a sea of words continues.
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby Meds » Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:56 pm

RoyalDude wrote:But if you look at teams like the Red Wings and Bruins you can still find great players later in the draft and combine that with smart trades you can still win the cup.


Red Wings: The argument has been made before, and it's a good one, that the Wings lucked out when it came to their drafting. Let's have a look at players on Detroit's roster that were drafted by them and have played with them exclusively.

Justin Abdelkader. 2nd round in 2005. Didn't crack the lineup as a regular until 2009-10. Is a depth forward.

Pavel Datsyuk. 6th round in 1998. Did not become a true scoring forward until 2002-03. Now an elite player.

Valtteri Filppula. 3rd round of 2002. Breakout season was 2011-12. Until then he was a 3rd line skater.

Darren Helm. 5th round of 2005. Became a 30 point player in 2010-11.

Henrik Zetterberg. 6th round of 1999. Breakout season in 2005-06.

Jonathan Ericsson. 9th round of 2002. Didn't even become a regular on the team until 2009-10. Is a bottom pairing dman.

Niklas Kronwall. 1st round of 2000. Became a regular on the roster in 2006-07. Top 2 dman.

Brendan Smith. 1st round of 2007. Still not a regular on the Wings roster.

Jakub Kindl. 1st round of 2005. Has played 2 half seasons with the big club.

Jimmy Howard. 2nd round of 2003. Didn't become legitimate NHL goaltender until 2009-10.

None of these guys cracked the NHL roster or became regular contributors for at least 4, and usually more, seasons in the system.

Looking back to 2002, the roster that mentored their current top players, you can see that they had some key players who were drafted by the organization and stayed there. They didn't win another cup until the next group really matured and the roster was augmented by some FA pickups and trades. The start of their current success can actually be traced back to some shit years until they drafted Steve Yzerman 4th overall in 1983. So is it the drafting or is it the development system? Ken Holland inherited a team in 1997 that was coached by Scotty Bowman, who had already put his fingerprints all over the organization. The system was in place already. He has just continued to manage it. It helps that he started is post-playing career as a scout, but I almost would have thought we would have seen more Zetterberg's and another Datsyuk or two over the last 15 years since he started making the calls..... :roll:
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby Meds » Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:21 pm

RoyalDude wrote:But if you look at teams like the Red Wings and Bruins you can still find great players later in the draft and combine that with smart trades you can still win the cup.


Now let's look at the Bruins.....and since this is about GM's we will look at players that were drafted, or acquired, since 2006, and seeing as Chiarelli didn't actually start until May 26 of 2006, well that draft year should hardly count as he was just following the advice of the scouting staff, after all, he'd only been there less than a month by the time draft day rolled around. But I digress.

Tyler Seguin. 2nd overall in 2010. Would have been Hall if the Oilers had gone the other way. No-brainer selection.

Milan Lucic. 2nd round in 2006. Surprised other teams passed on him. Now a top 6 power forward. Good draft pick.

Brad Marchand. 3rd round in 2006. Sandpaper. Can put up points. Good draft pick.

That's it for draft picks by the current GM of the Bruins. Nobody else is on their roster that he picked up, and their blueline is completely devoid of Boston drafted players. So let's look at pick-ups and trades.

Tuuka Rask. One of Chiarelli's first trades moves as GM was to send Andrew Raycroft to Toronto for Rask. A good trade as Rask is now going to be their starting goaltender......6 years later.

Zdeno Chara. Signed as a UFA in 2006. Great signing, other teams were in the mix, Chara chose Boston.

Nathan Horton. Good trade. But it was with Florida, they give up talent all over the place.

Marc Savard. Good UFA pick up, complete disaster in last 2 years due to concussion problems.

Dennis Seidenberg. Not really sure what Florida was thinking there.

Johnny Boychuk. A decent trade, Boychuk fits the mold of the team as a big body who can play physical, defensive hockey.

Adam McQuaid. Traded for a pick that ended up being Jamie Benn.

So Chiarelli has done very little in the way of drafting players, but he has made some good trades (robbed Florida blind) and UFA signings. His signings fit the mold of the team, but we all know that the Bruins can't play hockey within the actual rules. But I guess the won a Cup, so that counts for something. I don't really see alot of mind blowing moves here though. Horton and Seidenberg were good trades, but UFA signings are as much the work of the GM as the choice of the player and where he wants to play.
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby Meds » Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:53 pm

Now let's look at the players on the Canucks roster that have been drafted and developed by this team (comparing systems here, not GM's).

Henrik Sedin. 3rd overall 1999. Art Ross and Hart Trophy winner, 1st team All-Star.

Daniel Sedin. 2nd overall 1999. Art Ross and Ted Lindsay winner, 1st team All-Star.

Ryan Kesler. 1st round 2003. Selke winner, premiere two-way forward. Breakthrough year 2007-08.

Jannik Hansen. 9th round 2004. Shutdown energy winger. Earned regular spot in 2009-10.

Alex Burrows. Undrafted. Top 6 forward rounding out one of the best lines in hockey. Great at both ends of the ice.

Mason Raymond. 2nd round 2005. Speedy winger. Breakout season 2009-10.

Kevin Bieksa. 5th round 2001. Earned regular spot on blueline in 2006-06. Top 3 defenseman.

Alex Edler. 3rd round of 2004. Earned regular spot on blueline in 2007-08. Top 3 (maybe 2) defenseman.

Chris Tanev. Undrafted, signed 2010-11. Expected to be on regular roster when hockey resumes. Top 4? defenseman.

Cory Schneider. 1st round 2004. Earned regular spot on roster in 2010-11. Starting goaltender.

That's not bad, 10 current players that are major contributors to the team and have been drafted (or found) and developed within the organization.

Now look at some of the moves made by Mike Gillis since he took the reigns in 2008.

Mats Sundin. Big signing, though not ideal. Sundin didn't contribute as expected but was instrumental in Kesler's development.

Dan Hamhuis. UFA signing. Good move, though Hamhuis wanted to come here. Top 3 defenseman.

Chris Higgins. Acquired via trade. Good trade, key contributor in 2011 playoffs.

Keith Ballard. Acquired via trade. A bust, but not one that anyone predicted.

David Booth. Acquired via trade. Did not live up to expectations, though injuries have been an issue. Jury still out.

Max Lapierre. Acquired via trade. Solid depth center who can move up the lineup as needed.

Manny Malhotra. Signed as UFA. Good signing at the time. Eye injury making contract look like waste of cap last season.

Jason Garrison. Signed as UFA. Was much sought after on UFA market, chose Vancouver.

Zack Kassian. Acquired via trade. Who knows what will happen here. Kassian could be a boom or a bust, if he pans out Gillis will look like a genius.

Sedins. Gillis extended them to bargain bin contracts.

Alex Burrows. Gillis has extended his contract twice since taking the helm in Vancouver. Both times the contract has been a very good one for the team.

Luongo. Gillis extended his contract, and regardless of what people say, $5.5M for a goalie like Luongo is a good deal.

Schneider. Signed to extension. Gillis looking towards future with Schneider in net rather than trade young talent.

Christian Ehrhoff. Acquired via trade. Really good pickup for a puck moving dman. Ehrhoff wanted longer term in the end. Was still an amazing trade to get him for a couple of seasons.

It's tragic that Gillis has done such a shit job of adding to this team while letting so many key assets just depart as UFA's..... :roll:

I wish we had as many home-grown players on our roster as the Bruins and Red Wings have on theirs. :look:
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby Fred » Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:06 pm

Detroit picks, of the list shown, 5 are later than 2nd round...which means Detroit themselves passed on these players twice at very least. A lot of luck. Which they have never been repeated since then, which further suggests it was mainly luck.

Look at some of the loosers they picked with higher picks

http://canucks.nhl.com/club/draftstats. ... DET&supl=N

Take a look at the year they drafted Datsyuk in the 6th round 1998 here's some of the names of players they took before they settled on Datsyuk. Fischer (good) Ryan Barnes , Tomek Valtonen, Jake McCracken , Brent Hobday , Calle Steen and who can forget Adam Deleeuw . Before they took Zettersburg they drafted these winners Jari Tolsa , Andrei Maximenko and the great Kent McDonell
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby RoyalDude » Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:39 pm

I just love how Meds switches mid stream to benefit his own delusional argument from comparing GM's when talking about the Bruins drafting to JUMPING TO systems when analyzing Canucks draft picks like Gillis had so much to do with it. Fuck me. When will people stop waxing on about how amazing Gillis is for re-signing Nonis and Burke Canuck players. Wow, a real GM feat I say. I guess Meds realized that he couldn't compare GM's when it came Gillis drafting, cause it sucks, so he so conveniently shifts it to 'systems' and then how amazing Gillis is at re-siging players he inherited or signing BC born UFA's who wanted to come back and home and play in BC. LMAO

Pick an argument Meds, GM's or systems???? The bottom line is, the Canucks were the only team in the NHL at the end of last season whom did not have one of their own drafted players in the line-up, Gillis has had how many drafts now? 5 Drafts? That's bad my friend.
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby RoyalDude » Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:49 pm

Meds wrote:
RoyalDude wrote:But if you look at teams like the Red Wings and Bruins you can still find great players later in the draft and combine that with smart trades you can still win the cup.


Red Wings: The argument has been made before, and it's a good one, that the Wings lucked out when it came to their drafting. Let's have a look at players on Detroit's roster that were drafted by them and have played with them exclusively.

Justin Abdelkader. 2nd round in 2005. Didn't crack the lineup as a regular until 2009-10. Is a depth forward.

Pavel Datsyuk. 6th round in 1998. Did not become a true scoring forward until 2002-03. Now an elite player.

Valtteri Filppula. 3rd round of 2002. Breakout season was 2011-12. Until then he was a 3rd line skater.

Darren Helm. 5th round of 2005. Became a 30 point player in 2010-11.

Henrik Zetterberg. 6th round of 1999. Breakout season in 2005-06.

Jonathan Ericsson. 9th round of 2002. Didn't even become a regular on the team until 2009-10. Is a bottom pairing dman.

Niklas Kronwall. 1st round of 2000. Became a regular on the roster in 2006-07. Top 2 dman.

Brendan Smith. 1st round of 2007. Still not a regular on the Wings roster.

Jakub Kindl. 1st round of 2005. Has played 2 half seasons with the big club.

Jimmy Howard. 2nd round of 2003. Didn't become legitimate NHL goaltender until 2009-10.

None of these guys cracked the NHL roster or became regular contributors for at least 4, and usually more, seasons in the system.

Looking back to 2002, the roster that mentored their current top players, you can see that they had some key players who were drafted by the organization and stayed there. They didn't win another cup until the next group really matured and the roster was augmented by some FA pickups and trades. The start of their current success can actually be traced back to some shit years until they drafted Steve Yzerman 4th overall in 1983. So is it the drafting or is it the development system? Ken Holland inherited a team in 1997 that was coached by Scotty Bowman, who had already put his fingerprints all over the organization. The system was in place already. He has just continued to manage it. It helps that he started is post-playing career as a scout, but I almost would have thought we would have seen more Zetterberg's and another Datsyuk or two over the last 15 years since he started making the calls..... :roll:


Just curious where were Lidstrom, Franzen and Holmstrem drafted. By what team and where in the draft order? I know, Lidstrom 53rd overall, Franzen - 97th overall, Holmstrom 257th overall. All by Detroit. But hey, only Gillis can't find later round steals cause he hasn't been drafting from a favorable position. Again, the Red Wings are far and away superior at finding gems outside the first round. You seem to really downplay Datsyuk and Zetterberg like they is nothing special, who drafted them and where in the order???? Whereabouts in the first round was Kronwall drafted???? On and on and on and on. Gillis has no excuse, he sucks at drafting.
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby Island Nucklehead » Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:34 pm

Ken Holland traded for Robert Lang and gave up Fleischmann and Mike Green, shockingly bad. Bertuzzi for Matthias and Nick Spaling wasn't exactly a winner.

Chiarelli traded Kris Versteeg for Brandon Bochenski. Whopper.
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby Blob Mckenzie » Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:49 pm

RoyalDude wrote:I just love how Meds switches mid stream to benefit his own delusional argument from comparing GM's when talking about the Bruins drafting to JUMPING TO systems when analyzing Canucks draft picks like Gillis had so much to do with it. Fuck me. When will people stop waxing on about how amazing Gillis is for re-signing Nonis and Burke Canuck players. Wow, a real GM feat I say.



So should he have let the twins go and traded Kesler, Edler and Schneider etc ? You do realize EVERY SINGLE FUCKING ONE of these players along with Burrows and Bieksa have improved greatly since Gillis took over don't you ? You are probably the type of guy who buys an $80 strip loin at costco, marinates it with garlic flakes in a jar and parkay, cooks it on a George Foreman grill and wonders why it tastes like a catchers mitt. But hey you bought the steak right.... :lol:

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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby Uncle dans leg » Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:23 pm

RoyalDude wrote: Gillis has had how many drafts now? 5 Drafts? That's bad my friend.

Detroits picks don't even start cracking the line up for at least 5 years after they're drafted. When they finally do, they pay their dues on the 3rd or 4th lines. Usually it takes even longer for them to become impact players.
As far as I can see, Gillis's picks are coming along quite nicely and will be in a position to be impact players along the same timeline.
Also, CoHo was a pretty decent prospect and if his old man hadn't have been snivelling in Gillis's ear so much he would still be a Canuck I figure. I dont blame Gillis for flushing that bullshit at all. Not to mention the player he picked up in the trade looks to fill a GLARING weakness recently exposed.

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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby Meds » Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:28 pm

RoyalDude wrote:I just love how Meds switches mid stream to benefit his own delusional argument from comparing GM's when talking about the Bruins drafting to JUMPING TO systems when analyzing Canucks draft picks like Gillis had so much to do with it. Fuck me. When will people stop waxing on about how amazing Gillis is for re-signing Nonis and Burke Canuck players. Wow, a real GM feat I say. I guess Meds realized that he couldn't compare GM's when it came Gillis drafting, cause it sucks, so he so conveniently shifts it to 'systems' and then how amazing Gillis is at re-siging players he inherited or signing BC born UFA's who wanted to come back and home and play in BC. LMAO

Pick an argument Meds, GM's or systems???? The bottom line is, the Canucks were the only team in the NHL at the end of last season whom did not have one of their own drafted players in the line-up, Gillis has had how many drafts now? 5 Drafts? That's bad my friend.


I did that because Detroit has a great system for developing players and it's hardly fair to compare the work of a GM, who has been manning the helm of the same team for 15 years, to another GM who has only been in his current posting for 4 years. Also, Gillis has made it no secret that he looks at Detroit's system as a model going forward.

Also, Gillis has only been the GM in Vancouver since 2008. That's only 4 years. If you look at all these Detroit players that you want to hold up as amazing draft picks from later rounds, well they took at least 4 years to mature to the point where they were NHL ready. And, again, 4 years vs. 15 years, not really a basis for comparisson, especially when the longer serving guy started as a scout and not a player agent.

Comparing Chiarelli and Gillis is the GM comparrison (I didn't clarify that in my last post). 6 years vs. 4 years, and their respective teams met in the finals 2 seasons ago. Outside of Lucic and Marchand, I'm not sure who Chiarelli has drafted in later rounds that have panned out for the Bruins.....and as I already said, he was only the GM for a month when those picks were made, so he's taking pretty much all cues from the scouts that year. As for trades, pretty close really. Ehrhoff was a better pick up for Vancouver than Seidenberg was for Boston. Horton a better pickup for the Bruins than Higgins or Booth have been for Vancouver.

RoyalDude wrote:Just curious where were Lidstrom, Franzen and Holmstrem drafted.


Of those 3 guys only Franzen was drafted under Ken Holland's tenure as GM. So I guess you are now comparing systems rather than General Managers?
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby Meds » Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:50 pm

RoyalDude wrote:Gillis has no excuse, he sucks at drafting.


He's had 5 drafts. Let's look at them.

In 2008 he took Cody Hodgson 10th overall. This means he passed on Jordan Eberle, Tyler Myers, Tyler Ennis, and Henrik Karlsson. Beyond those names there have been no real names that Gillis should have taken. There have been no diamonds that have come up out of the later rounds either.....Justin Shultz may become one, but I don't think I would have taken him over Hodgson at that point, and he was gone before Gillis drafted again. Eberle, Myers, or Karlsson, would have been better picks.....not sure on Ennis.

In 2009 he took Jordan Schroeder at 22nd overall. Nothing stands out in that draft where he missed the boat. Nobody has really blown anyone out of the water with a later round pick from that year either.

In 2010, and I could be mistaken, but I don't think the Canucks even had a draft pick until the 4th round. Again, nothing here that is looking like it was a missed gem.

In 2011 he took Niklas Jensen at 29th overall. Jensen looks to be a decent prospect in the making. Time will tell. Nobody behind him looks like they would have been a better option. And here again we see nobody coming out of nowhere in the later rounds.

In 2012 he took Brendan Gaunce 26th overall. Nobody behind Gaunce that looks to have been a more savvy selection.

Man Gillis just SUCKS at drafting. 5 years in a row with only one pick in the top 20 and he has nothing to show for it. No Datsyuk or Zetterberg, not even a Franzen. 5 years and only 3 players he passed on that would have been a better pick.....and all of them in the same year. Dammit anyways.
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