Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by Blob Mckenzie » Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:06 pm

RoyalDude wrote:Listen Blobby Big Mack...the Canucks do not have one prospect on the latest Top 50 Prospects of the NHL. Yakupov ranked 1st, Schultz ranked 22nd, Klefbom ranked 29th. Not one Canuck, Blobby Mac, not one Canuck - http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospect-rankings/

The Penguins have 3. The Red Wings have 2. It proves that you can still find good players later in the draft in which Gillis has not been able to. Tired of the excuse, "well the Canucks haven't been drafting from a favorable position since Gillis has been in charge!" A big pile of stinky ass bull shite that is batman.
Once again, it's hard to take someone seriously who puts any stock into the clowns who write for hockeysfuture.
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by RoyalDude » Sun Nov 11, 2012 7:07 pm

Jack Gordon, Tom Watts, Harry Neale, Bill Laforge, Michel Petit, JJ Daigneault, Moe Lemay dark days of Canuck hockey are set to return to these shores in a couple years Blobby Mac. Trust me my good man.
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by Blob Mckenzie » Sun Nov 11, 2012 7:58 pm

RoyalDude wrote:Jack Gordon, Tom Watts, Harry Neale, Bill Laforge, Michel Petit, JJ Daigneault, Moe Lemay dark days of Canuck hockey are set to return to these shores in a couple years Blobby Mac. Trust me my good man.
Is that what the experts at HF are predicting ?
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by RoyalDude » Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:35 pm

Seriously Coast Meridian Blobby, I think this Canuck bunch has two good years left in them. I don't doubt for a minute that they will finish tops of the league, they will still continue to struggle bulging the twine, rippling the mesh. But they will continue to eek out the wins, but once the Sisters start hitting mid 30's we are in deep cow dung cause we got nothing in the way of high end NHL talent waiting in the wings, brewing on the farm if ya dig. Thats my beef. The Gillis management team has created a serious void in the next wave. We've had a good run of torch passing for more than a decade starting with the Bure/Linden years, then the Naslund/Bertuzzi years then the Sedin years, but who is next Blobby? Who do ya see capable of taking the torch from the sisters? Nada, nobody, zilcho damilcho. That is my beef with Gillis, he has severed the chain with his poor drafting and developing. Trust me my man, Kassian, Jensens and Gaunce will not keep this team in prominentville hockey. Unless Gillis is able to get back a top notch prospect/pick from a Lou trade we might avoid Jack Gordon like hockey, but if not, this team is heading for some serious dark days of hockey once again. All because of Gillis.
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by Island Nucklehead » Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:54 am

I'm too drunk to read RD's last rant, sorry bud, It's (or was) remembrance day and as a soldier it's my day to get gassed!

Anyways.... was meaning to post this in the prospects forum but given the conversation this seems to make sense.

In the last 30-something years, only six number 1 picks have won the Cup with the teams that drafted them. Pretty sure it's Kane, Crosby, Fleury, Lecavalier, Modano and Lemieux. I'm sure someone will correct me if i'm wrong. Seems to me, if you don't play for a team in Pittsburgh, you're royally fucked (much like the dude's social life).

The Oilers better get mighty good, because they've been the most pathetic, disgusting, and tragic hockey team to grace the NHL over the past few seasons.... we'll benefit from watching such a fantastic team 6 times/year.... but there's no way the Canucks should be scared of the Oilers yet.

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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by RoyalDude » Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:48 am

Island Nucklehead wrote:I'm too drunk to read RD's last rant, sorry bud, It's (or was) remembrance day and as a soldier it's my day to get gassed!

Anyways.... was meaning to post this in the prospects forum but given the conversation this seems to make sense.

In the last 30-something years, only six number 1 picks have won the Cup with the teams that drafted them. Pretty sure it's Kane, Crosby, Fleury, Lecavalier, Modano and Lemieux. I'm sure someone will correct me if i'm wrong. Seems to me, if you don't play for a team in Pittsburgh, you're royally fucked (much like the dude's social life).

The Oilers better get mighty good, because they've been the most pathetic, disgusting, and tragic hockey team to grace the NHL over the past few seasons.... we'll benefit from watching such a fantastic team 6 times/year.... but there's no way the Canucks should be scared of the Oilers yet.
Hey Nucklehead, stay focused and screw that noggin on. Who the fuck is talking about drafting no. 1 overall and the results from that? Any idiot will tell you that if you just narrow down Cup wins won by teams with their own no. 1 picks, the odds of that happening are going to be quite fucking slim. Widen that margin a little and join in on the conversation will ya. We are talking about drafting as a whole, not just no. 1 picks my good man. How often does a team get to draft no. 1 overall? When was the last time the Wings drafted no. 1 overall, how many cups they won? How many of those players on those Cup winning Red Wing teams were their own draft picks. Take a look at the Hawks. Toews, Seabrook, Bolland, Byfuglien, Kane, Keith etc. Take a look at the Bruins. Where did they draft - Beregeron. Lucic, Marchand, Kreji? Certainly not no. 1. All 2nd and 3rd round picks, how important were those players to that Cup win for the Bruins. Kinda knocks down the excuse for Gillis not being able to draft good players due to the unfavorable position he has been drafting from. The rest of the Bruins key players were acquired in shrewd trades, something that Gillis has yet to succeed in. Same goes for the Blackhawks cup win, take a look at some of those key trades.

The problem with Gillis is that he inherited a team already set with good players, he has failed enormously in the area of drafting and trading. Anyhow, at least we finally get to see what Gillis is truly made of now that the team is about to enter a transitional phase as some key players will start to show their age soon. When that happens, thats when we finally get to see what kind of smarts Gillis has.

I'm not championing the Oilers management for stinking the joint out for a good number of seasons to acquire these group of good young players. I think it's cheeseball management and that awarding the worst team in the league with a no. 1 pick is wrong. I fucking hate it. Giving the top prize to the worst management of the year is ass backwards, IMO. It frustrates me that the Oilers are stocked with all these good young players because of that. But if you look at teams like the Red Wings and Bruins you can still find great players later in the draft and combine that with smart trades you can still win the cup. That is where I give Gillis low marks. I talk about the Oilers not being great at drafting, I talk about them in that they will be a very good team in a few years due to an archaic system in drafting in pro sports.

All your argument does is point out the obvious, you can win a cup by building a team with top picks by stinking for a good number of years like the Hawks and Penguins, or you can win the cup by having smart management who can find great players outside the first round, or late in the first round and making smart, timely trades like the Bruins, the Devils and Red Wings have.
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by RoyalDude » Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:03 am

Aaronp18 wrote:
RoyalDude wrote:I missed the overtime of the Abbotsford Heat game last night, can anybody tell me who won and who scored the winning goal?
I missed the game on Friday, can anyone tell me how many goals the Barons scored?
Ya no, the Heat shit canned the Barons that night, I was just wondering who won the 2nd game and who scored the OT goal, do you know?
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by Blob Mckenzie » Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:23 am

RoyalDude wrote:Seriously Coast Meridian Blobby, I think this Canuck bunch has two good years left in them. I don't doubt for a minute that they will finish tops of the league, they will still continue to struggle bulging the twine, rippling the mesh. But they will continue to eek out the wins, but once the Sisters start hitting mid 30's we are in deep cow dung cause we got nothing in the way of high end NHL talent waiting in the wings, brewing on the farm if ya dig. Thats my beef. The Gillis management team has created a serious void in the next wave. We've had a good run of torch passing for more than a decade starting with the Bure/Linden years, then the Naslund/Bertuzzi years then the Sedin years, but who is next Blobby? Who do ya see capable of taking the torch from the sisters? Nada, nobody, zilcho damilcho. That is my beef with Gillis, he has severed the chain with his poor drafting and developing. Trust me my man, Kassian, Jensens and Gaunce will not keep this team in prominentville hockey. Unless Gillis is able to get back a top notch prospect/pick from a Lou trade we might avoid Jack Gordon like hockey, but if not, this team is heading for some serious dark days of hockey once again. All because of Gillis.
Does the phrase "salary cap space" mean anything to you ?
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by RoyalDude » Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:22 am

Blob Mckenzie wrote:
RoyalDude wrote:Seriously Coast Meridian Blobby, I think this Canuck bunch has two good years left in them. I don't doubt for a minute that they will finish tops of the league, they will still continue to struggle bulging the twine, rippling the mesh. But they will continue to eek out the wins, but once the Sisters start hitting mid 30's we are in deep cow dung cause we got nothing in the way of high end NHL talent waiting in the wings, brewing on the farm if ya dig. Thats my beef. The Gillis management team has created a serious void in the next wave. We've had a good run of torch passing for more than a decade starting with the Bure/Linden years, then the Naslund/Bertuzzi years then the Sedin years, but who is next Blobby? Who do ya see capable of taking the torch from the sisters? Nada, nobody, zilcho damilcho. That is my beef with Gillis, he has severed the chain with his poor drafting and developing. Trust me my man, Kassian, Jensens and Gaunce will not keep this team in prominentville hockey. Unless Gillis is able to get back a top notch prospect/pick from a Lou trade we might avoid Jack Gordon like hockey, but if not, this team is heading for some serious dark days of hockey once again. All because of Gillis.
Does the phrase "salary cap space" mean anything to you ?
Well, if we didn't have the likes of uselessness in Booth and Ballard wasting a lot of salary cap space I'd might fee better about things. I agree that the system of the Salary Cap levels the playing field in acquiring talent but ya still need those good young cheap players coming up through the system to help offset being jammed up against the cap. Also, having good young players coming up through the system puts a manager in a position of power when it comes to trading, making current expensive core veterans expendable to make room for the young and bringing back cheaper, younger talent from that in a trade. The cycle of hockey team managing life. Gillis hasn't quite figured it out. This very thing made it easier for Holmgren to dish Richards and Carter for good young talent when he had good young Philly draft picks ready for prime time in Giroux and Van Reimsdyk.
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by Strangelove » Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:22 pm

And… yawn, fart… the dude’s attempts to drown common sense in a sea of words continues.
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by Meds » Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:56 pm

RoyalDude wrote:But if you look at teams like the Red Wings and Bruins you can still find great players later in the draft and combine that with smart trades you can still win the cup.
Red Wings: The argument has been made before, and it's a good one, that the Wings lucked out when it came to their drafting. Let's have a look at players on Detroit's roster that were drafted by them and have played with them exclusively.

Justin Abdelkader. 2nd round in 2005. Didn't crack the lineup as a regular until 2009-10. Is a depth forward.

Pavel Datsyuk. 6th round in 1998. Did not become a true scoring forward until 2002-03. Now an elite player.

Valtteri Filppula. 3rd round of 2002. Breakout season was 2011-12. Until then he was a 3rd line skater.

Darren Helm. 5th round of 2005. Became a 30 point player in 2010-11.

Henrik Zetterberg. 6th round of 1999. Breakout season in 2005-06.

Jonathan Ericsson. 9th round of 2002. Didn't even become a regular on the team until 2009-10. Is a bottom pairing dman.

Niklas Kronwall. 1st round of 2000. Became a regular on the roster in 2006-07. Top 2 dman.

Brendan Smith. 1st round of 2007. Still not a regular on the Wings roster.

Jakub Kindl. 1st round of 2005. Has played 2 half seasons with the big club.

Jimmy Howard. 2nd round of 2003. Didn't become legitimate NHL goaltender until 2009-10.

None of these guys cracked the NHL roster or became regular contributors for at least 4, and usually more, seasons in the system.

Looking back to 2002, the roster that mentored their current top players, you can see that they had some key players who were drafted by the organization and stayed there. They didn't win another cup until the next group really matured and the roster was augmented by some FA pickups and trades. The start of their current success can actually be traced back to some shit years until they drafted Steve Yzerman 4th overall in 1983. So is it the drafting or is it the development system? Ken Holland inherited a team in 1997 that was coached by Scotty Bowman, who had already put his fingerprints all over the organization. The system was in place already. He has just continued to manage it. It helps that he started is post-playing career as a scout, but I almost would have thought we would have seen more Zetterberg's and another Datsyuk or two over the last 15 years since he started making the calls..... :roll:

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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by Meds » Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:21 pm

RoyalDude wrote:But if you look at teams like the Red Wings and Bruins you can still find great players later in the draft and combine that with smart trades you can still win the cup.
Now let's look at the Bruins.....and since this is about GM's we will look at players that were drafted, or acquired, since 2006, and seeing as Chiarelli didn't actually start until May 26 of 2006, well that draft year should hardly count as he was just following the advice of the scouting staff, after all, he'd only been there less than a month by the time draft day rolled around. But I digress.

Tyler Seguin. 2nd overall in 2010. Would have been Hall if the Oilers had gone the other way. No-brainer selection.

Milan Lucic. 2nd round in 2006. Surprised other teams passed on him. Now a top 6 power forward. Good draft pick.

Brad Marchand. 3rd round in 2006. Sandpaper. Can put up points. Good draft pick.

That's it for draft picks by the current GM of the Bruins. Nobody else is on their roster that he picked up, and their blueline is completely devoid of Boston drafted players. So let's look at pick-ups and trades.

Tuuka Rask. One of Chiarelli's first trades moves as GM was to send Andrew Raycroft to Toronto for Rask. A good trade as Rask is now going to be their starting goaltender......6 years later.

Zdeno Chara. Signed as a UFA in 2006. Great signing, other teams were in the mix, Chara chose Boston.

Nathan Horton. Good trade. But it was with Florida, they give up talent all over the place.

Marc Savard. Good UFA pick up, complete disaster in last 2 years due to concussion problems.

Dennis Seidenberg. Not really sure what Florida was thinking there.

Johnny Boychuk. A decent trade, Boychuk fits the mold of the team as a big body who can play physical, defensive hockey.

Adam McQuaid. Traded for a pick that ended up being Jamie Benn.

So Chiarelli has done very little in the way of drafting players, but he has made some good trades (robbed Florida blind) and UFA signings. His signings fit the mold of the team, but we all know that the Bruins can't play hockey within the actual rules. But I guess the won a Cup, so that counts for something. I don't really see alot of mind blowing moves here though. Horton and Seidenberg were good trades, but UFA signings are as much the work of the GM as the choice of the player and where he wants to play.

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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by Meds » Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:53 pm

Now let's look at the players on the Canucks roster that have been drafted and developed by this team (comparing systems here, not GM's).

Henrik Sedin. 3rd overall 1999. Art Ross and Hart Trophy winner, 1st team All-Star.

Daniel Sedin. 2nd overall 1999. Art Ross and Ted Lindsay winner, 1st team All-Star.

Ryan Kesler. 1st round 2003. Selke winner, premiere two-way forward. Breakthrough year 2007-08.

Jannik Hansen. 9th round 2004. Shutdown energy winger. Earned regular spot in 2009-10.

Alex Burrows. Undrafted. Top 6 forward rounding out one of the best lines in hockey. Great at both ends of the ice.

Mason Raymond. 2nd round 2005. Speedy winger. Breakout season 2009-10.

Kevin Bieksa. 5th round 2001. Earned regular spot on blueline in 2006-06. Top 3 defenseman.

Alex Edler. 3rd round of 2004. Earned regular spot on blueline in 2007-08. Top 3 (maybe 2) defenseman.

Chris Tanev. Undrafted, signed 2010-11. Expected to be on regular roster when hockey resumes. Top 4? defenseman.

Cory Schneider. 1st round 2004. Earned regular spot on roster in 2010-11. Starting goaltender.

That's not bad, 10 current players that are major contributors to the team and have been drafted (or found) and developed within the organization.

Now look at some of the moves made by Mike Gillis since he took the reigns in 2008.

Mats Sundin. Big signing, though not ideal. Sundin didn't contribute as expected but was instrumental in Kesler's development.

Dan Hamhuis. UFA signing. Good move, though Hamhuis wanted to come here. Top 3 defenseman.

Chris Higgins. Acquired via trade. Good trade, key contributor in 2011 playoffs.

Keith Ballard. Acquired via trade. A bust, but not one that anyone predicted.

David Booth. Acquired via trade. Did not live up to expectations, though injuries have been an issue. Jury still out.

Max Lapierre. Acquired via trade. Solid depth center who can move up the lineup as needed.

Manny Malhotra. Signed as UFA. Good signing at the time. Eye injury making contract look like waste of cap last season.

Jason Garrison. Signed as UFA. Was much sought after on UFA market, chose Vancouver.

Zack Kassian. Acquired via trade. Who knows what will happen here. Kassian could be a boom or a bust, if he pans out Gillis will look like a genius.

Sedins. Gillis extended them to bargain bin contracts.

Alex Burrows. Gillis has extended his contract twice since taking the helm in Vancouver. Both times the contract has been a very good one for the team.

Luongo. Gillis extended his contract, and regardless of what people say, $5.5M for a goalie like Luongo is a good deal.

Schneider. Signed to extension. Gillis looking towards future with Schneider in net rather than trade young talent.

Christian Ehrhoff. Acquired via trade. Really good pickup for a puck moving dman. Ehrhoff wanted longer term in the end. Was still an amazing trade to get him for a couple of seasons.

It's tragic that Gillis has done such a shit job of adding to this team while letting so many key assets just depart as UFA's..... :roll:

I wish we had as many home-grown players on our roster as the Bruins and Red Wings have on theirs. :look:

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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by Fred » Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:06 pm

Detroit picks, of the list shown, 5 are later than 2nd round...which means Detroit themselves passed on these players twice at very least. A lot of luck. Which they have never been repeated since then, which further suggests it was mainly luck.

Look at some of the loosers they picked with higher picks

http://canucks.nhl.com/club/draftstats. ... DET&supl=N

Take a look at the year they drafted Datsyuk in the 6th round 1998 here's some of the names of players they took before they settled on Datsyuk. Fischer (good) Ryan Barnes , Tomek Valtonen, Jake McCracken , Brent Hobday , Calle Steen and who can forget Adam Deleeuw . Before they took Zettersburg they drafted these winners Jari Tolsa , Andrei Maximenko and the great Kent McDonell
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by RoyalDude » Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:39 pm

I just love how Meds switches mid stream to benefit his own delusional argument from comparing GM's when talking about the Bruins drafting to JUMPING TO systems when analyzing Canucks draft picks like Gillis had so much to do with it. Fuck me. When will people stop waxing on about how amazing Gillis is for re-signing Nonis and Burke Canuck players. Wow, a real GM feat I say. I guess Meds realized that he couldn't compare GM's when it came Gillis drafting, cause it sucks, so he so conveniently shifts it to 'systems' and then how amazing Gillis is at re-siging players he inherited or signing BC born UFA's who wanted to come back and home and play in BC. LMAO

Pick an argument Meds, GM's or systems???? The bottom line is, the Canucks were the only team in the NHL at the end of last season whom did not have one of their own drafted players in the line-up, Gillis has had how many drafts now? 5 Drafts? That's bad my friend.
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