Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Welcome to the main forum of our site. Anything and everything to do with the Vancouver Canucks is dicussed and debated here.

Moderator: Referees

Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby The_Pauser » Sat Nov 03, 2012 1:41 pm

RoyalDude wrote:
C'mon Blobbybelly...with his track record at trading and drafting/developing prospects ya don't expect eyebags Gillis to actually make a good trade for the long term benefit of this organization do ya? His eye for talent leaves a lot to be desired. But hey, I can't win against the Gillis apologists around here. With the young up and coming talented whipper snapper teams surrounding us in our division, ie the Oilers, Avalanche and Wild ya just know that the Flames and Canucks, whom both share the same MGMT philosophies are in a transitional phase, ie their time at the top is coming to a close but Gillis has zero talent for the future, take note of the fact that the Canucks, at end of season, were the only team in the NHL whom did not have a player on their roster whom they had drafted from the last 5 draft classes.

Hell, Nonis kicks Gillis ass in drafting at only 3 years when compared to Gillis 5. Shite, can you imagine if Bourdon was still with us? Gillis should be thankful for Nonis drafting and acquiring Schneider and Luongo. Just those two Nonis players make Nonis a mere fucking GM'ing geniuse right up their with Jake fucking Milford.


Nonis was a terrible GM. His only good draft was 2004, which is hard to credit to Nonis because he had JUST taken over from Burke. Similar to how it's hard to credit Gillis with the 2008 draft as he had JUST taken over from Nonis (not that we got anyone good out of that draft aside from Cody Hodgson who, as has been reported, was picked by Gillis overruling our scouts who wanted to go with Beach). The Luongo trade was nice, but it wouldn't have happened if Florida ownership did not insist on not taking back salary (Luongo was set to be dealt for Joe Thornton prior to that).

In 2005 we passed up on Anze Kopitar (huge mistake), and only have Mason Raymond to show from it.

In 2006 we have nothing to show from it, and the only decent player drafted was Grabner (who in 2010 was put on waivers by Florida).

In 2007 we have nothing to show from it, and we passed up on David Perron (huge mistake) for a guy who right now is playing in the German tier 3 league.

Nonis took a team that was a division champion and turned it into a team that missed the playoffs 2 out of 3 seasons. We had no direction, no offense, and had to rely on Luongo to win us games. Gillis has taken pieces that he inherited and supplemented them with quality pieces necessary to take this team to the next step. He's not completely done his job yet as we still have holes that he needs to address (and hasn't addressed), but we're certainly in a better position under Gillis than we were under Nonis.
The_Pauser
CC 2nd Team All-Star
 
Posts: 338
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 10:21 pm
Location: Surrey, BC

Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby RoyalDude » Sat Nov 03, 2012 6:43 pm

The_Pauser wrote:
The Luongo trade was nice,


"the Luongo trade was 'nice''. No big deal. What-eva! Like, arguabley, the dude will probably go down as one of the teams best goalies ever AND Nonis draft pick Schneider MAY even challenge for that honor one day. No biggie though right Pauser? Like Goalies don't matter much, like pitching baseball, like what-everrrrrr! Inheriting Luongo and Schneider from the previous GM is 'nice', but nothing special right Pauser? Like acquiring quality goaltending is like no sweat.

You forgot to mention that right after drafting Schneider the Nonis regime picked Edler in the 2nd round, who is quite arguably our best defenseman right now. Didn't one of you cats defend Gillis that he has had the unenviable task of having to draft late??? Who says ya can't find quality players after the first round or late in the first round???? Take a look at the Canucks draft history and you will marvel at what they have drafted post 1st round, some of the best Canuck players in history, ie Smyl, Bure etc. Oh, in case you forgot Jannik Hansen was drafted later on in that same draft.

Didn't Grabner did go on to score 35 goals was it? For the Islanders? And 20 the next year??? Does that count for something? Raymond?? Bourdon???
"I just want to say one word to you. Just one word. Are you listening? - Plastics." - The Graduate
User avatar
RoyalDude
CC Legend
 
Posts: 4513
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 6:36 pm
Location: Vancouver

Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby RoyalDude » Sat Nov 03, 2012 6:49 pm

Uncle dans leg wrote:Gillis seems to be having some success attracting free agents and this could be to compensate for his poor draft position resulting from on ice success.


You mean Justin Schultz???

What free agents you talking about? The real difficult to sway B.C. born and raised and living Dan Hamhius and Jason Garrison? Real difficult signings those were. Regarding Schultz, Gillis and his arrogance thought that like Hamhius and Garrison, Schultz was a lock to sign here so his hard nosed sales pitch was outmatched by the enthusiastic sales pitch done by the Oilers.

regarding poor draft positioning, where in the order did Nonis draft Schneider, Edler, Raymond and Hansen??????
"I just want to say one word to you. Just one word. Are you listening? - Plastics." - The Graduate
User avatar
RoyalDude
CC Legend
 
Posts: 4513
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 6:36 pm
Location: Vancouver

Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby Uncle dans leg » Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:56 pm

RoyalDude wrote:
Uncle dans leg wrote:Gillis seems to be having some success attracting free agents and this could be to compensate for his poor draft position resulting from on ice success.


You mean Justin Schultz???

What free agents you talking about? The real difficult to sway B.C. born and raised and living Dan Hamhius and Jason Garrison? Real difficult signings those were. Regarding Schultz, Gillis and his arrogance thought that like Hamhius and Garrison, Schultz was a lock to sign here so his hard nosed sales pitch was outmatched by the enthusiastic sales pitch done by the Oilers.

regarding poor draft positioning, where in the order did Nonis draft Schneider, Edler, Raymond and Hansen??????

I'm having trouble understanding exactly what you are accusing Gillis of not doing but given the lack of actual hockey discussion of late, I welcome the conversation!
In my opinion, it's only now becoming apparent exactly how good or bad these draft picks end up and it has been just over 5 years of development to gauge their progress. This hinders giving a clear judgement of latter drafts. The shitty teams that end up needing their young players earlier sometimes end up ruining budding young stars by rushing them into scenarios that destroy confidence or set them up to accept failure. See Edmonton, Islanders, etc...
Gillis has been preaching development since taking the helm and has used the Detroit model of success as his blueprint to build around veterans and bring along their young guys once they are more physically prepared for playing in the NHL.

First off, Gillis started drafting in 2008 if I am correct.
His significant picks were (1) Hodgson and (2) Sauve. CoHo is a good pick and Sauve is looking to be a dud.
Ok...not great but CoHo could pan out as a top line centre so I wouldn't call that a total failure. definitely Gillis's weakest performance.
Significant picks of 2009- (1) Schroeder, (2) Rodin and (3) Connauton...(5) Andersson is still hanging in there but a longshot
I really like what I've seen in Connauton. No, he's not in the show just quite yet but I watch all the games from Chicago and can say this kid will be definitely challenging for a spot when they return. He has a cannon and is the teams best D-man on the farm. Excellent depth pick in my opinion.
Schroeder....well, I can't say he's going to make it as 5'9" centre. He has skill for sure but his size is a huge disadvantage.
Rodin is likely never going to make the NHL in my opinion.
Andersson has NHL size but doesn't appear to have anything that suggests to me a breakout at this stage of his development.
I think we have a gem in Connauton. Definitely. The rest are disappointing but not a write off just yet. Schroeder could pull a Martin St Louis and find his mojo a bit later. He is definitely strong for his size so it's possible for him to succeed. Remember he is still pretty young.
Significant pick of 2010- (4) Pat McNally and Alex Friesen
Still early but considering McNally was a 4th rounder and has apparently shown considerable promise, I won't judge yet. Same goes for Friesen. Too early
The draft years of 2011 and 2012 are far from being able to evaluate. Waay too early.

I figure you can only judge Gillis on his first year (2008) as the other years players are still developing. So can you really judge him on the results of 1 year? That's pretty damn tough dude. There is always a certain degree of luck in drafting, especially in the later rounds. From what I have seen of his drafting, I think he's probably done no worse or better than any other GM in the league.
nobody forks with...the jesus
User avatar
Uncle dans leg
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 1978
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:19 pm
Location: Lethbridge AB

Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby The_Pauser » Sat Nov 03, 2012 10:41 pm

RoyalDude wrote:
The_Pauser wrote:
The Luongo trade was nice,


"the Luongo trade was 'nice''. No big deal. What-eva! Like, arguabley, the dude will probably go down as one of the teams best goalies ever AND Nonis draft pick Schneider MAY even challenge for that honor one day. No biggie though right Pauser? Like Goalies don't matter much, like pitching baseball, like what-everrrrrr! Inheriting Luongo and Schneider from the previous GM is 'nice', but nothing special right Pauser? Like acquiring quality goaltending is like no sweat.

You forgot to mention that right after drafting Schneider the Nonis regime picked Edler in the 2nd round, who is quite arguably our best defenseman right now. Didn't one of you cats defend Gillis that he has had the unenviable task of having to draft late??? Who says ya can't find quality players after the first round or late in the first round???? Take a look at the Canucks draft history and you will marvel at what they have drafted post 1st round, some of the best Canuck players in history, ie Smyl, Bure etc. Oh, in case you forgot Jannik Hansen was drafted later on in that same draft.

Didn't Grabner did go on to score 35 goals was it? For the Islanders? And 20 the next year??? Does that count for something? Raymond?? Bourdon???


If you read my post you would have read all my counter points to what you've just written. Ill give you some more time to formulate an intelligent response that counters what I've said, if you even have one.
The_Pauser
CC 2nd Team All-Star
 
Posts: 338
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 10:21 pm
Location: Surrey, BC

Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby Meds » Sun Nov 04, 2012 1:36 am

RoyalDude wrote:
Uncle dans leg wrote:Gillis seems to be having some success attracting free agents and this could be to compensate for his poor draft position resulting from on ice success.


You mean Justin Schultz???

What free agents you talking about? The real difficult to sway B.C. born and raised and living Dan Hamhius and Jason Garrison? Real difficult signings those were. Regarding Schultz, Gillis and his arrogance thought that like Hamhius and Garrison, Schultz was a lock to sign here so his hard nosed sales pitch was outmatched by the enthusiastic sales pitch done by the Oilers.

regarding poor draft positioning, where in the order did Nonis draft Schneider, Edler, Raymond and Hansen??????


I don't think the official numbers that were pitched to Schultz were ever released, but when the Oilers brass play the Gretzky and Coffey phone call card, I'd say that's borderline tampering of some kind. Schultz himself alluded to the importance of that phone call when it came to coming to a decision. How do you match that without dumping a ton of money on a contract for a guy that has done nothing at the big league level? His first NHL contract is paying him $3.7M. With the Oilers track record for defensemen of late, he could be a total bust, and considering their goaltending situation Schultz had better be a helluvalot better defensively than most guys playing in their first NHL season.

Tell us RD, do you really think that Gillis should have matched that contract offer?
User avatar
Meds
CC Legend
 
Posts: 3344
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:50 pm

Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby RoyalDude » Sun Nov 04, 2012 9:07 am

Meds wrote:With the Oilers track record for defensemen of late, he could be a total bust, and considering their goaltending situation Schultz had better be a helluvalot better defensively than most guys playing in their first NHL season.

Tell us RD, do you really think that Gillis should have matched that contract offer?


Well, I don't like to get too worked up over AHL stats but if you wonder over to the AHL website and scan the stats, you will notice that Justin Schultz is leading the AHL in scoring with 6 goals and 9 assists for 15 points in 9 games. Not bad for a rookie D-man. Next guy on the list has 12 points. Much to popular belief around here, the Oilers actually have some very good prospects on defense, Oscar Klefbom is a highly touted prospect.

I don't know what the Canuck brass should have offered but they seem to have no problem throwing the bucks at Mr. Sports Hernia Garrison after just one good season of hockey in Florida where Gillis has an amazing track record of acquiring not so very cheap hockey players where the on ice product simply do not match up to their costs. i just don't get the hard ball approach they took with Schultz, really. I guess, they had hoped on the hometown discount, in which Gillis seems to try to take advantage of.
"I just want to say one word to you. Just one word. Are you listening? - Plastics." - The Graduate
User avatar
RoyalDude
CC Legend
 
Posts: 4513
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 6:36 pm
Location: Vancouver

Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby the Dogsalmon » Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:03 am

i have to admit that GMMG has done some shitty goddamn deals up to this point...he's a 3 dressed up as a 9...
User avatar
the Dogsalmon
CC 1st Team All-Star
 
Posts: 665
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 9:12 am
Location: in the ainus

Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby Hockey Widow » Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:33 am

Money was never the issue with Shultz. The Canucks offered the maximum allowed under the ELC. Opportunity to play in the NHL with good minutes was the breaking point. Edmonton offered him a regular NHL spot, his to lose. The Canucks offered him a shot at camp to earn the spot. Shultz never demanded a spot. But the opportunity was greater in Edmonton that he would get a chance right away, not so with the Canucks.

His decision was based upon where he felt he could slide in right away and play NHL minutes. It is where most pundits predicted he would end up or where they felt he SHOULD end up. That in the end was the deciding factor for him. His heart was in Vancouver but his career opportunities lied elsewhere.

What could MG have done to counter that? Well, I guess he could have said yes, you have a spot on the D and it is yours to lose. I mean the let Salo go, they let Rome go. To me that sent a message that they were clearing a spot for the kid. But MG would not make a promise he would be on the opening day roster. In fairness to Shultz he never demanded that but Edmonton offered it up. I'm not really sure what someone expects MG should have done. Been nicer, sweeter, kinder, more fatherly?
The only HW the Canucks need
User avatar
Hockey Widow
CC Legend
 
Posts: 3988
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:52 pm

Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby Blob Mckenzie » Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:05 pm

RoyalDude wrote:


Hell, Nonis kicks Gillis ass in drafting at only 3 years when compared to Gillis 5. Shite, can you imagine if Bourdon was still with us? Gillis should be thankful for Nonis drafting and acquiring Schneider and Luongo. Just those two Nonis players make Nonis a mere fucking GM'ing geniuse right up their with Jake fucking Milford.


Jake Milford traded Rick Vaive and Billy D for Tiger Williams. Yeah he was a real wizard.
Tell me how my ass tastes.
User avatar
Blob Mckenzie
CC Legend
 
Posts: 3102
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 12:34 pm
Location: Oakalla

Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby the Dogsalmon » Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:19 pm

Blob Mckenzie wrote:
RoyalDude wrote:


Hell, Nonis kicks Gillis ass in drafting at only 3 years when compared to Gillis 5. Shite, can you imagine if Bourdon was still with us? Gillis should be thankful for Nonis drafting and acquiring Schneider and Luongo. Just those two Nonis players make Nonis a mere fucking GM'ing geniuse right up their with Jake fucking Milford.


Jake Milford traded Rick Vaive and Billy D for Tiger Williams. Yeah he was a real wizard.



i think that was sarcasm Blob...
User avatar
the Dogsalmon
CC 1st Team All-Star
 
Posts: 665
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 9:12 am
Location: in the ainus

Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby coco_canuck » Sun Nov 04, 2012 1:04 pm

Justin Schultz has been lights out in the AHL, but what's the historical precedence for AHL d-men who were a top the league in scoring?

Well Elliotte Friedman brought this up in his 30 thoughts:

Mark Spector looked back and noticed that no defenceman was AHL player of the week last season. Justin Schultz has one already. Here's another stat: Schultz leads the league in scoring with 12 points. In the last 32 years, only three blue-liners have reached the Top 10 -- Steve Bancroft (2001), Chris Snell (1994) and Craig Levie (1981).


http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/opinion/2012/10/30-thoughts-lockouts-chock-full-of-familiar-refrains.html

Bancroft and Snell combined to play 40 career NHL games, and one time Canuck Levie did the best out of the three, playing in 183 games, the equivalent to a little more than two full NHL seasons.

Not saying Schultz will go the way of those three, but just some perspective about the AHL and the role of offensive d-men in that league. Its long been understood that offensive d-men can flourish in the AHL because they can get away with offensive risks and skill moves at that level. But in the NHL, positioning, defensive awareness and mental aptitude is much more critical to two-way success.

Having said that, it was very disappointing that the Canucks could not sign Schultz, and maybe MG could have been more shrewd, but for those thinking Schultz is a sure-fire superstar based on his AHL performance, temper your enthusiasm just a bit and let his game speak for itself in the NHL.
User avatar
coco_canuck
CC 1st Team All-Star
 
Posts: 966
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:54 pm

Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby Strangelove » Sun Nov 04, 2012 2:20 pm

Hockey Widow wrote:Money was never the issue with Shultz.


DUH! RD, Meds: WAKE UP... you braindead mammyrammers!!
____
The Ring Leader
User avatar
Strangelove
CC Legend
 
Posts: 7398
Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2004 1:13 pm

Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby Tiger » Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:02 pm

Hockey Widow wrote:Money was never the issue with Shultz. The Canucks offered the maximum allowed under the ELC. Opportunity to play in the NHL with good minutes was the breaking point. Edmonton offered him a regular NHL spot, his to lose. The Canucks offered him a shot at camp to earn the spot. Shultz never demanded a spot. But the opportunity was greater in Edmonton that he would get a chance right away, not so with the Canucks.

His decision was based upon where he felt he could slide in right away and play NHL minutes. It is where most pundits predicted he would end up or where they felt he SHOULD end up. That in the end was the deciding factor for him. His heart was in Vancouver but his career opportunities lied elsewhere.

What could MG have done to counter that? Well, I guess he could have said yes, you have a spot on the D and it is yours to lose. I mean the let Salo go, they let Rome go. To me that sent a message that they were clearing a spot for the kid. But MG would not make a promise he would be on the opening day roster. In fairness to Shultz he never demanded that but Edmonton offered it up. I'm not really sure what someone expects MG should have done. Been nicer, sweeter, kinder, more fatherly?

Take him to the Roxy? :drink: :wow:
" If you cant beat them in the alley - you can't beat them on the ice
User avatar
Tiger
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 1047
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 7:09 pm

Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby Aaronp18 » Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:03 pm

Strangelove wrote:
Hockey Widow wrote:Money was never the issue with Shultz.


DUH! RD, Meds: WAKE UP... you braindead mammyrammers!!


Yup, if it was about a chance to win he'd be in Vancouver.

He knows, and Edmonton all but guaranteed this, he has a far better chance landings a full time NHL gig with the Oilers. Of course paying him his NHL salary.

In Vancouver there no way he has a chance like that and there's a high probability (if the league actually started when it was supposed to) he starts in Chicago, making his AHL salary.
User avatar
Aaronp18
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 1767
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:36 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Canucks Corner Chat

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Island Nucklehead, Meds and 3 guests