There will be a strike

Welcome to the main forum of our site. Anything and everything to do with the Vancouver Canucks is dicussed and debated here.

Moderator: Referees

User avatar
ukcanuck
MVP
MVP
Posts: 4591
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:04 am

Re: There will be a strike

Post by ukcanuck »

Tiger wrote:ukcanuck said:
Per works for a slightly more efficient government
another oxymoron..." efficient government "
I don't know if you noticed, but they have a pretty good hockey team and soccer team over there, they have medical and dental and social programs to die for, they have a national automotive industry and they build their own fighter jets amongst other things im sure Per would be happy to point out, so i dont know if the oxymoron holds in the land of Swedish meatballs.

(ya ya I know the swedish government didnt do that stuff, but they didnt fuck it up neither)
User avatar
Lancer
CC Legend
Posts: 3118
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 10:41 am
Location: Kingston, Ontario

Re: There will be a strike

Post by Lancer »

Mondi wrote:I trust corporations, they have always been fantastic stewards of public health and safety, the financial system, the housing market, the automotive sector and more. In fact the United States is a model society, if only there were less government intervention and even lowers taxes...say like Chile!
Love the tongue in cheek.

Say what you will about governments and bureaucrats (who should be more accountable than they currently are), but there's one endearing trait about government that you can never say about corporations: they're accountable to the people they serve. Corporations are only accountable to their share-holders, and even then only significant ones.

People slag bureaucrats and I get that. Many bureacrats may be inefficient, and some may be a little dim and diffident. Personally I think there should be more insecurity regarding their employment, even though they get laid off like everybody else. That said, I've come across some good ones and more than a few who are motivated by serving the public rather than themselves. I'd take them over the nakedly amoral capitalists and mercantile classes. For every Warren Buffett there are 10 Gordon Geckos.
Love the Sport. Love the Team.

Hate the League.
User avatar
Tiger
CC Hall of Fan Member
Posts: 1742
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:09 pm
Contact:

Re: There will be a strike

Post by Tiger »

Lancer wrote:
Mondi wrote:I trust corporations, they have always been fantastic stewards of public health and safety, the financial system, the housing market, the automotive sector and more. In fact the United States is a model society, if only there were less government intervention and even lowers taxes...say like Chile!
Love the tongue in cheek.

Say what you will about governments and bureaucrats (who should be more accountable than they currently are), but there's one endearing trait about government that you can never say about corporations: they're accountable to the people they serve. Corporations are only accountable to their share-holders, and even then only significant ones.

People slag bureaucrats and I get that. Many bureacrats may be inefficient, and some may be a little dim and diffident. Personally I think there should be more insecurity regarding their employment, even though they get laid off like everybody else. That said, I've come across some good ones and more than a few who are motivated by serving the public rather than themselves. I'd take them over the nakedly amoral capitalists and mercantile classes. For every Warren Buffett there are 10 Gordon Geckos.
All companies ( except government controlled monopolies ) are subject to competition therefore have to be more efficient in providing goods and services than monopolistic government agencies.. One of the problems of most union contracts is the "seniority clause" or in the case of universities "tenure" that make it almost impossible to promote the best employees and get rid of the deadwood.. Thank god the NHL doesn't have that one -- Gordie Howe would still be playing !! Add that to the fact of self policing ( such as Doctors etc. ) and we have government paid for bureaucrats that do little to increase the nations wealth and a lot to do with high taxation
" If you cant beat them in the alley - you can't beat them on the ice
dbr
CC Legend
Posts: 3093
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 5:37 pm

Re: There will be a strike

Post by dbr »

Tiger wrote:All companies ( except government controlled monopolies ) are subject to competition therefore have to be more efficient in providing goods and services than monopolistic government agencies..
That's a shortsighted way of looking at efficiency.

If there are enough companies out there to fill 150% of a population's need for something, no matter how efficient they are it's probably going to be a bigger waste of resources than a marginally less efficient government agency providing just 100% of it.
User avatar
Per
MVP
MVP
Posts: 9331
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:45 am
Location: Sweden

Re: There will be a strike

Post by Per »

Blob Mckenzie wrote:
ukcanuck wrote: Per works for a slightly more efficient government
I guess .....as bad as the govt here is I would be pissed paying 60 % income tax rates.
Well... On incomes below SEK 372,000 (roughly CAD 55,000) you only pay municipal tax, which varies from 29 to 36%, depending on where you live. The lowest rates are mostly found in the South and in the Stockholm area, while the highest rates are typically in the sparsely populated "forest counties". Where I live it's 32%, so pretty average.

So, on incomes above 372,000 there is a national 20% tax, and on incomes above 533,000 (roughly CAD 80,000) there is an additional 5%. Thus, sure, you can have a 60% tax rate, but only if you earn more than CAD 80,000 a year and live in the outback. Plus those 60% would only apply to the amount exceding the aforementioned CAD 80,000, so it's not the effective tax rate, merely the marginal tax rate on the part of your income exceding 80,000.

OK, here's an example. Say you live in a municipality that charges 36% in municipal taxes and your yearly earnings are CAD 100,000. You then pay municipal tax on the full 100,000, ie 36,000. On the earnings between 55,000 and 80,000 you pay an additional 20%, ie 5,000, and on the earnings between 80,000 and 100,000 you pay 25%, ie another 5,000. Thus in total you pay 46,000 and end up with a 46% effective tax rate. Now sure, if you instead earn a sweet CAD 1,000,000 million you'd end up paying 595,000, so on incomes exceding CAD 1,000,000 a 60% tax rate may actually occur, but only if you live in one of those rural munipialities that are at the top of the tax league.
Whatever you do, always give 100 %!
Except when donating blood.
User avatar
Lancer
CC Legend
Posts: 3118
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 10:41 am
Location: Kingston, Ontario

Re: There will be a strike

Post by Lancer »

Tiger wrote:One of the problems of most union contracts is the "seniority clause" or in the case of universities "tenure" that make it almost impossible to promote the best employees and get rid of the deadwood..
Agree with you here. IMHO, unions should be about protecting workers from management's abuses, not sheltering the slack and the idle just because they have the time in. Unmotivated oldtimers who mail it in exist in workforces, and I'm all for debriding the dead flesh out of a shop floor.
Tiger wrote:and we have government paid for bureaucrats that do little to increase the nations wealth and a lot to do with high taxation
Sorry Tiger, but you're not close to right. You have diplomats abroad who beat the drums to secure trade deals for Canadian companies. You have food inspection agency chaps trying to ease things with customs guys in other countries so our meat and other agro exporters have a more efficient time selling their stuff outside of Canada. Transport Canada employs air traffic controllers who make sure the planes take off and arrrive safely and on time. People curse the public works guys who sit around in the shop when the weather's fine, but get a couple snowflakes dropping and how would commercial and residential traffic move without those union slobs behind the wheel? You think those folks don't add to the nation's wealth? Want to see what privatizing those services would create for the nation's wealth? I don't

What about health care - the sacred cow of the nation? Want to see the alternative? Look south and tell me how good privatized health care looks. Our health system doesn't come cheap and it's far from perfect, but it beats the alternative so I'll swallow deep when I look at my income tax deductions and carry on.

You bet there is waste in government at all levels. Bureacrats should be held more accountable and more easily fired when their ineptitude and avarice cost taxpayers needlessly. But to imply they're useless holes into which your hard-earned tax dollars get swallowed for no apparent use, dude just gotta say you're wrong.
Love the Sport. Love the Team.

Hate the League.
User avatar
Tiger
CC Hall of Fan Member
Posts: 1742
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:09 pm
Contact:

Re: There will be a strike

Post by Tiger »

Lancer said:
Sorry Tiger, but you're not close to right. You have diplomats abroad who beat the drums to secure trade deals for Canadian companies. You have food inspection agency chaps trying to ease things with customs guys in other countries so our meat and other agro exporters have a more efficient time selling their stuff outside of Canada. Transport Canada employs air traffic controllers who make sure the planes take off and arrrive safely and on time. People curse the public works guys who sit around in the shop when the weather's fine, but get a couple snowflakes dropping and how would commercial and residential traffic move without those union slobs behind the wheel? You think those folks don't add to the nation's wealth? Want to see what privatizing those services would create for the nation's wealth? I don't

What about health care - the sacred cow of the nation? Want to see the alternative? Look south and tell me how good privatized health care looks. Our health system doesn't come cheap and it's far from perfect, but it beats the alternative so I'll swallow deep when I look at my income tax deductions and carry on.
ok.. starting with health care.. it Sucks.. in the year 2000 Canada was ranked as #30.. behind most of the developed world and just slightly better than the USA at #37.. Our cost per patient was #2.. just behind the USA again.. A waiting list is not medical care !! We do not offer any alternatives to the public "medical insurance ".. The insurance actually is to pay doctors , nurses plus bureaucrats, Sure Sweden is better ,, but so is Italy, France and many other countries that have private or mixed private and public hospitals.. The old plan put together by the SoCreds was far superior to our present one.. No waiting periods, new hospitals being built , no shortage of medical staff or equipment.. Hospitals cost $1 a day the rest was paid by the provincial sales tax.. Most of us had medical insurance but for the poor the BC government paid for MSI ( private medical insuance .. NO WAITING and a choice of treatment. :)
" If you cant beat them in the alley - you can't beat them on the ice
User avatar
Tiger
CC Hall of Fan Member
Posts: 1742
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:09 pm
Contact:

Re: There will be a strike

Post by Tiger »

sorry screwed up last post so..
Lancer also said :
You have food inspection agency chaps trying to ease things with customs guys in other countries so our meat and other agro exporters have a more efficient time selling their stuff outside of Canada. Transport Canada employs air traffic controllers who make sure the planes take off and arrrive safely and on time. People curse the public works guys who sit around in the shop when the weather's fine, but get a couple snowflakes dropping and how would commercial and residential traffic move without those union slobs behind the wheel? You think those folks don't add to the nation's wealth? Want to see what privatizing those services would create for the nation's wealth? I don't
Got to agree with you on Air Traffic control.. ( was one once ) but its governed by IACO ( UN based in Montreal ) not the canadian government .Yep, run by the DOT.Again "seniority over performance. The senior controller at Vancouver airport could not read a radar screen ! familiar with the "Diplomats".. mostly in Thailand where they are busy most of the year organizing a golf tournament for Ex Pats.. Called the Beaver Open.. though maybe should be called the Open Beaver considering the amount of lovely and available female caddies .. A private Canadian/thai Chamber of Commerce is much more useful in Import/Export..
OK.. now to the "public works " .. the BC department of highways privatized most of the highway work and saved a load of money.. and as for the municipal workers I for one am tired of watching 4 guys with 1 shovel trying to look busy.. Sure there are some things that should be government services but also should be made much more responsible to the public they are supposed to be serving ..
" If you cant beat them in the alley - you can't beat them on the ice
User avatar
the Dogsalmon
CC 1st Team All-Star
Posts: 665
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 9:12 am
Location: in the ainus

Re: There will be a strike

Post by the Dogsalmon »

keep going Tiger...most of us are lovin' it...the truth hurts...
User avatar
ukcanuck
MVP
MVP
Posts: 4591
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:04 am

Re: There will be a strike

Post by ukcanuck »

Tiger wrote:
ok.. starting with health care.. it Sucks.. in the year 2000 Canada was ranked as #30.. behind most of the developed world and just slightly better than the USA at #37.. Our cost per patient was #2.. just behind the USA again.. A waiting list is not medical care !! We do not offer any alternatives to the public "medical insurance ".. The insurance actually is to pay doctors , nurses plus bureaucrats, Sure Sweden is better ,, but so is Italy, France and many other countries that have private or mixed private and public hospitals.. The old plan put together by the SoCreds was far superior to our present one.. No waiting periods, new hospitals being built , no shortage of medical staff or equipment.. Hospitals cost $1 a day the rest was paid by the provincial sales tax.. Most of us had medical insurance but for the poor the BC government paid for MSI ( private medical insuance .. NO WAITING and a choice of treatment. :)
It's a bit unfair to refer to public health care as a government monopoly as its not something private industry is really interested in.
Sure there is big money in providing health care to the wealthy who have the resources to pay and that is exactly where a private companies resources would go

However a huge portion of society could never afford anything beyond basic medical care ( broken bones, trauma etc) so in just about every democratic country that cares about its people rich and poor has universal coverage.
It's not the system that's the problem, it's the cost of progress, so much of medical advances that are miraculous also are as expensive as hell.
You mention the cost per patient being way up there with the US, perhaps that has a lot to do with the high percentage of high cost complicated procedures performed in one of the richest societies on Earth compared to countries that have to send their serious cases to countries like Canada or the US because they don't have the the resources at home?
nuckster
MVP
MVP
Posts: 612
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:35 am
Location: Penticton

Re: There will be a strike

Post by nuckster »

What the hell is this you guys!!?? This is a frikin hockey board and this thread is about the strike... (which should be titled `lockout'). If i wanted to read diatribe about the intricacies of fuckin healthcare I can opt to go to a site on healthcare... spare me!!! Is our moderator asleep at the wheel here, or has the lack of real hockey action been a catalyst for regression into or onto issues that actually mean something? I come here to escape reality and or digress into a alter-hockey universe.I wonder if my local Jr. A hockey team has a blog site? Jeeessus
cc oldtimer
User avatar
ukcanuck
MVP
MVP
Posts: 4591
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:04 am

Re: There will be a strike

Post by ukcanuck »

nuckster wrote:What the hell is this you guys!!?? This is a frikin hockey board and this thread is about the strike... (which should be titled `lockout'). If i wanted to read diatribe about the intricacies of fuckin healthcare I can opt to go to a site on healthcare... spare me!!! Is our moderator asleep at the wheel here, or has the lack of real hockey action been a catalyst for regression into or onto issues that actually mean something? I come here to escape reality and or digress into a alter-hockey universe.I wonder if my local Jr. A hockey team has a blog site? Jeeessus
Clearly it's the lack of anything in the NHL or the lockout to talk about that has the conversation going in this direction. Maybe you could hop a plane to New York and light a fire under Betamax and Fehr's ass for us all, I'm sure you would be a hero :)
User avatar
Strangelove
Moderator & MVP
Moderator & MVP
Posts: 42804
Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2004 12:13 pm
Location: Lake Vostok

Re: There will be a strike

Post by Strangelove »

nuckster wrote: What the hell is this you guys!!?? This is a frikin hockey board and this thread is about the strike... (which should be titled `lockout'). If i wanted to read diatribe about the intricacies of fuckin healthcare I can opt to go to a site on healthcare... spare me!!!
Good call!!

Obviously this is all part of some commie plot.

points finger at UK, Lancer, and Per

GET THEM PITCHFORKERS!!!
____
Try to focus on someday.
User avatar
Tiger
CC Hall of Fan Member
Posts: 1742
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:09 pm
Contact:

Re: There will be a strike

Post by Tiger »

nuckster wrote:
What the hell is this you guys!!?? This is a frikin hockey board and this thread is about the strike... (which should be titled `lockout'). If i wanted to read diatribe about the intricacies of fuckin healthcare I can opt to go to a site on healthcare... spare me!!!
Good call nuckster ... dunno how I got sucked into that one !! ( Now for 1 last capitalistic shot )
HOCKEY PLAYERS DONT USE THE PUBLIC MEDICAL SYSTEM !! part of their agreement .. team doctors .. specialized medical care and insurance ..

God will I be glad to get back to actually enjoying hockey ...
" If you cant beat them in the alley - you can't beat them on the ice
User avatar
Per
MVP
MVP
Posts: 9331
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:45 am
Location: Sweden

Re: There will be a strike

Post by Per »

nuckster wrote:What the hell is this you guys!!?? This is a frikin hockey board and this thread is about the strike... (which should be titled `lockout'). If i wanted to read diatribe about the intricacies of fuckin healthcare I can opt to go to a site on healthcare... spare me!!! Is our moderator asleep at the wheel here, or has the lack of real hockey action been a catalyst for regression into or onto issues that actually mean something? I come here to escape reality and or digress into a alter-hockey universe.I wonder if my local Jr. A hockey team has a blog site? Jeeessus
Yeah, we should be talking about hockey, but thanks to ****** Bettman, there's no hockey to talk about. :evil:
Whatever you do, always give 100 %!
Except when donating blood.
Post Reply