Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

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the Dogsalmon
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by the Dogsalmon » Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:37 am

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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by dbr » Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:14 am

Mondi wrote:All things being equal (i.e. the team in front of you and the grind of the playoffs), some players step up in the SCF (and elimination games) and some don't.
All things are rarely if ever equal.

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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by Tciso » Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:12 am

Mondi wrote:Everyone is so willing to give RL a pass for not one, but THREE playoff series where he brought his gas can to the crease, but everyone quickly throws the likes of Quick, Fleury, Thomas and Ward under the bus when those four have only thing that means anything, cup rings.

If people as many excuses for MAF as they did for RL he'd be up for consideration for the Hall of Fame already...he's done what Luongo did (take at team to the SCF) and then won a friggin' cup.

Oh let's downplay Rinne and Lindqvist's accomplishments too, of course let's not considered these guys have never played for a team like 2010-2011 Canucks, who were, for all intents and purposes, the best regular season team in a decade. The 2011-2012 Canucks were pretty darn good too. Oh and so were the 2009-2010 Canucks. And 2008-2009 for that matter
What minimizes those 3 regular seasons were the injuries the team had going into the playoffs. All 3 were terrible injury seasons. And, our team did shit the bed against a very hot LA. RL is not responsible for any of that. He's still a top 5 goalie in my opinion. If he had only 5 or 6 years left on his contract, it's be another story for trade options.
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by donlever » Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:17 pm

Mondi wrote:
dbr wrote:
Mondi wrote:All things being equal (i.e. the team in front of you and the grind of the playoffs), some players step up in the SCF (and elimination games) and some don't.
All things are rarely if ever equal.
Yeah, and in this case Luongo had better teams than the goalies listed (save MAF). And he still didn't win a Cup.
....you don't get tired of debating Luongo?

I mean, how many years has this been going on?

Not critiquing, just wondering, because I could be construed as leaning more towards your line of thinking but simply had enough of the discussion some 18 months ago personally.

It is what it is, right Bert?
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by Tciso » Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:26 pm

Mondi wrote:
dbr wrote:
Mondi wrote:All things being equal (i.e. the team in front of you and the grind of the playoffs), some players step up in the SCF (and elimination games) and some don't.
All things are rarely if ever equal.
Yeah, and in this case Luongo had better teams than the goalies listed (save MAF). And he still didn't win a Cup.
On paper he did, but we were badly injured during the playoffs, and while our team is great in the regular season rules, we are not built for the playoff rules. A lot of apples and oranges in the comparisons.
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by RoyalDude » Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:51 pm

Mondi wrote:Everyone is so willing to give RL a pass for not one, but THREE playoff series where he brought his gas can to the crease, but everyone quickly throws the likes of Quick, Fleury, Thomas and Ward under the bus when those four have only thing that means anything, cup rings.

If people as many excuses for MAF as they did for RL he'd be up for consideration for the Hall of Fame already...he's done what Luongo did (take at team to the SCF) and then won a friggin' cup.

Only thing separating him from HoF consideration is a Cup, and we've seen his playoff performances in the clutch.
You keep going on about Lou and how he 'has never won the cup'. Mondi.

Here is a list done by the Bleacher Report of the '20 Best Players To Never Win The Cup' - http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1188 ... tanley-cup

The player who tops the list - Marcel Dionne, I mean what a fucking shitty hockey player cause he's never won the cup, but current LA Kings like Dustin Penner and Colin Fraser are ten times the better hockey players cause they've won a cup, I mean fuck, it's that simple, Batman.

The one goalie on that list Curtis Joseph, what a SHITE goalie for not ever winning the cup!

Thanks for pointing out to me Mondi, that it's Luongo's sole responsibility for his team to win the cup all by myself. All this time I thought it was a team game.

As for Fleury winning the cup, you ever take in account the best player in the world right now, Sidney Crosby and one who is not to far behind him for that consdiration Malkin are his teamates and that they might have had something to do with winning the cup?

Lets give Quick a few more seasons before we start labelling him as a 'Great' goalie.

Rinne has had the luxury of playing behind what was considerably the stingiest defense and defensive system in the entire league. Same goes for Thomas and the defense in front of him.

Who was the goalie that won the cup with the Blackhawks a couple seasons ago? I can't even remember. Why? Cause the Hawks won for reasons outside of goaltending. Osgood, how many cups he win? He must be one of the greatest goalies of all time for winning a cup.
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by Jovocop » Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:40 am

Mondi wrote:You make irrelevant points to this discussion.

It's not that there aren't good/great players without Cups, it is that Luongo saves his career-worst performances for the biggest games. I have never doubted his ability, but his follow-through is what I questioned.

Beyond that, goalies and forwards are not really comparable. Nor do you seem comprehend the fact that RL played for one of the best teams (statistically) in the last 20 years. Dionne was a King in the late 70s and early 80s..not exactly the Kings heyday. But, he had a few good team around him....of course he was playing in era when NYI and EDM were legendary teams.I'm not sure the comparison is useful at all in fact.

However, Joseph...that's a good comparison. Decent career, never really broke through in the playoffs.

Now as I ask you...would you have traded Mattias Ohlund or Ed Jovanovski for Cujo in 2001?
Actually RD made some very good points :crazy:. Do you consider Ben Eager a very good hockey player just because he won a cup with the Hawks? The same idiot who singlehandedly lost the SJ-Van series by running at the Canucks.

You could argue that Luongo did not raise his game X times to win game 7 in SCF; however, you could also agrue that the other injured players did not raise their games Y times to win game 7 as well. Most of our problems with Luongo is really his play vs his paycheck (not cap hit). If he got paid $2m a year instead of $10m, I bet you would not even complain about his performance in game 7. The same thing applies to Steve Bernier. If he got paid less than $1m a year instead of $2.5m, I doubt anyone would even complain about him as a Canuck.

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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by Tiger » Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:19 am

Jovocop said :
You could argue that Luongo did not raise his game X times to win game 7 in SCF; however, you could also agrue that the other injured players did not raise their games Y times to win game 7 as well.


Nope I would argue that our top 3 players .. Luongo and 2 Sedins where on the ice for all 4 goals against and that the Sedins are just as culpable for poor defensive play and not raising their game offensively.

Your arguement about trading a star dman for a goaltender is a bit faulty.. WE DID JUST THAT.. Aucoin and a draft choice for Cloutier..
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by Blob Mckenzie » Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:29 am

Tiger wrote:Jovocop said :
You could argue that Luongo did not raise his game X times to win game 7 in SCF; however, you could also agrue that the other injured players did not raise their games Y times to win game 7 as well.


Nope I would argue that our top 3 players .. Luongo and 2 Sedins where on the ice for all 4 goals against and that the Sedins are just as culpable for poor defensive play and not raising their game offensively.

Your arguement about trading a star dman for a goaltender is a bit faulty.. WE DID JUST THAT.. Aucoin and a draft choice for Cloutier..
Enough about the Sedins. They were the only ones who threatened any offence against the Bruins. If they had gotten ANY offensive support from the other three lines playing behind them things may have been different. Team doesn't even make the playoffs , let alone the finals without Henrik and Daniel.
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by dbr » Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:45 am

Mondi wrote:Now as I ask you...would you have traded Mattias Ohlund or Ed Jovanovski for Cujo in 2001?
Ironically it probably would have been a great trade for the Canucks.

I would have happily swapped out Jovanovski for Aucoin if it meant also swapping out Cloutier for Cujo.. that would have made a big difference in the 2002 and 2003 playoffs.

Not to mention that draft pick we included was high enough that Mike Cammalleri, Jason Pominville, Tomas Plekanec and Patrick Sharp were all still on the board (all drafted within the next 40 picks), not to mention a handful of other serviceable NHLers.

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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by dbr » Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:26 am

A players "market value" is a hard thing to pin down. There aren't many top 5-10 (let's put him there for the sake of argument) goaltenders in the league with good cap hits on huge, risky contracts who are 33 and maybe going downhill but also just recently had one of the best seasons of their careers.

Even if there were, there aren't any trades that have occurred in the same CBA environment as the one in which the Luongo deal will occur.

There's simply little or no precedent with which to make conclusions about Roberto Luongo's "trade value" - you might well be right but you could also be way, way off (in either direction, frankly).

I will be pleasantly surprised if Gillis can get a player of Gardiner, Reilly etc. calibre and age back in the eventual Luongo trade and pretty happy if it's as part of a larger package. I think if he can get a couple of GMs working against one another it's feasible, but I think it could go in the other direction as well - although who knows, maybe Gillis just sits on the Luongo deal for the forseeable future if there's nothing of value to be had.

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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by Meds » Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:36 am

Mondi wrote:Yeah, and in this case Luongo had better teams than the goalies listed (save MAF). And he still didn't win a Cup.
Clearly he didn't though.

Outside of one game against Chicago and the SCF against Boston Luongo was amazing in the 2010-11 playoffs. The SCF is inexcusable, though Vigneault proved himself to be a complete bust as a coach when he kept letting Louie have the starts, especially considering his track record against teams that manage to get in his head.....Schneider would have stolen one game in Boston. But that is neither here nor there.

The LA Kings STEAMROLLED the playoffs. If the Canucks were so much better than them then they should have posted, at a minimum, a 16-2 record enroute to a Cup. They didn't.

Not gonna argue that Thomas had a better team in front of him. He didn't. He had a bigger more responsible defense and the Canucks were just too beat up to even play anymore at that point, so it could be said that it came down to Lou versus the Bruins and Lou came up short. I guess that's bound to happen when you ask one guy to hold off 18 attackers.

Niemi was a fluke artist. We've all seen his performance since 2009-10. His Cup winning Hawks were arguable one of the most stacked teams to win it in recent history. The next year proved it when they had to blow up their team due to salary constraints. Niemi ended up on another NHL powerhouse, the Sharks, we all know their track record in the post season. Big players shit the bed and don't perform, goalie goes home with the rest of the team. Ironically, Bieksa's series winning goal in the WCF was a fluke which nobody faults Niemi on as he had no idea where the puck was and played it as best he could taking away 90% of the bottom of the net, that wobbler just found its way in.....had that been the Sharks scoring on Luongo Vancouver fans would have crucified Louie for that goal.

Regardless, if the Canucks were so much better than those other SC winners, then obviously the Canucks should have 3 banners in the rafters as those are the 3 teams that ousted them from the playoffs and went on to take home the Cup. The last 3 Cups as a matter of fact.

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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by Tiger » Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:42 am

Blob .. said:
Enough about the Sedins. They were the only ones who threatened any offence against the Bruins. If they had gotten ANY offensive support from the other three lines playing behind them things may have been different. Team doesn't even make the playoffs , let alone the finals without Henrik and Daniel.
Hmm we were discussing game 7 of the Bruins/Canucks series .. and the Sedins scored nothing and were on the ice for all 4 goals against..nothing to do with the regular season .. They did not do well against the Bruins in the series.. 1 even handed goal.. 1 power play goal in 7 games.. ended up with -7 .. and a -5,, Luongo? a sv % of .891 and Goals against of .341 . The "Stars" didn't come through ..With kesler playing injured and Hamhuis and Samuellson out there wasn't much offensive support to call on.. Lapierre and Burrows lead the team with 2 goals each.. Hansen had a decent series both offensively and defensively..

And YES the Sedins are slowing down .. and where on the ice for all 4 goals against in the final game.. No question about there regular season play.. without Luongo and the twins we wouldn't have won the Presidents trophy ..
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by Blob Mckenzie » Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:20 pm

I get my back up a bit when the twins are bashed. You bash them...... a lot. I agree they aren't perfect , but they are the best value first line players in the league. You tell me where you are going to get that type of production at a combined salary of 12.2 million per season. They got zero support from Kesler, Raymond, Higgins, Sammy etc, or the decimated back end . I know they didn't deliver in game 7 but neither did anyone else. It's shocking the series actually went seven games.
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by Topper » Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:50 pm

In most of the games that final, Timmy stoned them early in what could have been game changers.
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