Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby Meds » Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:11 am

The_Pauser wrote:
RoyalDude wrote:Mondi must have missed the shooting gallery playoff series between Philadelphia and Pittsburgh last year which might have been the motivating factor as to why Shero brought in Vokoun this off-season. I'm surprised Mondi didn't add the other culprit to that list - Bryzgalov.


It's really disgusting how criminally underrated Luongo has become. He is easily a top 5 goaltender. Right now I would have Lundqvist (although barely), Quick, and Tim Thomas ahead of him. Pekka Rinne might have a slight edge, although he hasn't shown anything that suggests he should be put ahead of Luongo conclusively. Either way though, Luongo is still in the top 5.


I would even argue against those 3.

Thomas has been good, but when he hasn't had the all-world defense of the Boston "Clutch and Grab" Bruins in front of him he has been fairly average. I don't see him giving Luongo's Panthers of old a chance at anything. All the same, he is a competitor and at least Louie's equal.

Lundqvist is coming off an incredible year, but he has done far less in the playoffs than Bobby Lou. Regular season numbers are fairly comparable, Lundqvist has a slight edge, but last year's performance really gave him a nice boost on the career totals. He certainly has never carried a middle of the pack team into the playoffs and then proceeded to win a goaltending duel to get into the next round. Again, he's Louie's equal but needs to repeat this past season's performance.

Rinne has had one amazing year. Last year he was good, but his numbers dropped off. He is also back-stopping one of the most defensively focussed teams in the NHL. It will be interesting to see what his numbers do now that he has lost one of his top 2 defensemen.

Jonathan Quick is coming off an incredible year. But I'm going to say it, he didn't deserve that Conn Smythe. He was not the reason that LA won the Cup. The team steam rolled their opponents. Against us in the opening round he was quite beatable, it wasn't until game 5 that he finally put it together and actually won LA the game. Before that it was the team in front of him taking away Vancouver's chances, clearing loose pucks, blocking shots, eliminating second shot opportunities, and playing the clutch-and-grab-dead-puck-era-hockey that saw goaltender's numbers skyrocket and netminders like Dominik "flop around" Hasek post unbelievable stats by simply laying down and taking away the bottom of the net. Second round was more of the same, St. Louis threw alot of perimeter shots at the net. Easy work for the goalie. In the last 2 games they only got 21 and 18 shots on net. Phoenix, more of the same. The Finals? 17, 33, 22, 23, 19, 18. Those are the shot totals that Quick faced against New Jersey. Only in game 2 did he have to post any real numbers. Game 6 was a wash, thanks to officiating, from the half way point of the opening period. Quick had an easy Cup clinching game. He's a really good goaltender, but we've seen how rattled he can get in years past. I would like to see what would have happened if he had been our goaltender and Schneider or Louie had been theirs. We probably would have watched the Kings destroy the Canucks in 4 and the scores not even be close.

It's funny how quickly people dismiss some amazing seasons and games and compare a goalie to peers who have less experience and have seen the benefit of some amazing play by the players in front of them.

My problem with Luongo is that he is a slow starter and lets in soft goals at bad times. I still think he opened up the series against LA with a vengeance. He was incredible and the Canucks should have been completely out of both games in the first period, but Louie kept them in it with some amazing saves. Unfortunately a goalie is only going to bail his team out with unstoppable stops for so long. The fact that Vigneault went with Schneider tells me that it is perhaps the team that feels better with Cory in net.....and we have all seen the collective deflation that follows Luongo's gaffs. It is just time for a change.
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby Mondi » Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:48 am

Everyone is so willing to give RL a pass for not one, but THREE playoff series where he brought his gas can to the crease, but everyone quickly throws the likes of Quick, Fleury, Thomas and Ward under the bus when those four have only thing that means anything, cup rings.

If people as many excuses for MAF as they did for RL he'd be up for consideration for the Hall of Fame already...he's done what Luongo did (take at team to the SCF) and then won a friggin' cup.

Oh let's downplay Rinne and Lindqvist's accomplishments too, of course let's not considered these guys have never played for a team like 2010-2011 Canucks, who were, for all intents and purposes, the best regular season team in a decade. The 2011-2012 Canucks were pretty darn good too. Oh and so were the 2009-2010 Canucks. And 2008-2009 for that matter.

When considering a constellation of facts, including age, potential, past performance, salary, contract length and mental toughness, it is certainly debatable as to whether RL is a top 5 goalie.

It hasn't been like other GMs have been knocking down GMMG's door, now has it? If RL is worth as much as you people think don't you believe a trade would have taken place long ago?

Luongo is going to get us something useful, but for people thinking he is worth another play in top 5 at his position or a bevy of top flight assests...well, you're dreaming.

At the end of the day the proof will be in the pudding, let's just wait and see who comes back for the man who gave up 8.

Once again, for the record, I didn't say we should expect crap. I didn't say GMMG shouldn't hold out for a good deal. I didn't say Luongo was a bad goalie, or even a decent goalie. RL is a good goalie with several great seasons under his belt. Only thing separating him from HoF consideration is a Cup, and we've seen his playoff performances in the clutch.
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby dbr » Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:21 am

Mondi wrote:Everyone is so willing to give RL a pass for not one, but THREE playoff series where he brought his gas can to the crease, but everyone quickly throws the likes of Quick, Fleury, Thomas and Ward under the bus when those four have only thing that means anything, cup rings.

If people as many excuses for MAF as they did for RL he'd be up for consideration for the Hall of Fame already...he's done what Luongo did (take at team to the SCF) and then won a friggin' cup.

Oh let's downplay Rinne and Lindqvist's accomplishments too, of course let's not considered these guys have never played for a team like 2010-2011 Canucks, who were, for all intents and purposes, the best regular season team in a decade. The 2011-2012 Canucks were pretty darn good too. Oh and so were the 2009-2010 Canucks. And 2008-2009 for that matter.


Most of the arguments you make against Luongo's position in the upper echelon of goaltenders (be it top 5 or 10) are highly subjective, don't be so shocked that many of the counter arguments are similarly so.

The fact is that a guy like MA Fleury has easily as many "choke" moment as Luongo.. the difference is that Fleury won one more game than Luongo did one year (and you could persuasively argue about factors other than the goaltenders that contributed to the different outcomes for the Canucks and Penguins in their playoff runs).

When considering a constellation of facts, including age, potential, past performance, salary, contract length and mental toughness, it is certainly debatable as to whether RL is a top 5 goalie.


This I totally agree with.

That being said.. if you look at all of those factors I don't think you can name three current goaltenders superior to Roberto in every area, let alone five.

It all depends how you want to weigh each of those individual considerations, and I suspect for you the trump card is that Luongo is one of the few active goaltenders who has failed the "has he let me down" test for you and other Canucks fans.

(Personally I believe "mental toughness" is generally colossally overrated when looking at professional athletes, sure there are softies who disappear in physical games and there are legitimate cases of players having awful games at the worst times but I don't think you win even close to as many pressure filled games as you lose if you don't have "mental toughness.")
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby the Dogsalmon » Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:37 am

You must remember this
a kiss is just a kiss,a sigh is just a sigh...


and the beat goes on...ad naseum...
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby Mondi » Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:39 am

I don't disagree with what you say, but there is one objective factor we must consider: cup rings.

Of course, you can call it the difference between winning and losing one game. But, the fact of the matter is, guys like Ward, MAF, Thomas, Quick, Niemi, and Khabulin have done it and RL hasn't Not exactly a list of all-time goalies.

All things being equal (i.e. the team in front of you and the grind of the playoffs), some players step up in the SCF (and elimination games) and some don't.

The rest is completely up for debate. The point, as always, is that I don't expect more than 1 good asset and a pick for RL. The point is not to sewer RL, rather point out what I would say to GMMG were I to be an opposing GM.
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby dbr » Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:14 am

Mondi wrote:All things being equal (i.e. the team in front of you and the grind of the playoffs), some players step up in the SCF (and elimination games) and some don't.


All things are rarely if ever equal.
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby Tciso » Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:12 am

Mondi wrote:Everyone is so willing to give RL a pass for not one, but THREE playoff series where he brought his gas can to the crease, but everyone quickly throws the likes of Quick, Fleury, Thomas and Ward under the bus when those four have only thing that means anything, cup rings.

If people as many excuses for MAF as they did for RL he'd be up for consideration for the Hall of Fame already...he's done what Luongo did (take at team to the SCF) and then won a friggin' cup.

Oh let's downplay Rinne and Lindqvist's accomplishments too, of course let's not considered these guys have never played for a team like 2010-2011 Canucks, who were, for all intents and purposes, the best regular season team in a decade. The 2011-2012 Canucks were pretty darn good too. Oh and so were the 2009-2010 Canucks. And 2008-2009 for that matter


What minimizes those 3 regular seasons were the injuries the team had going into the playoffs. All 3 were terrible injury seasons. And, our team did shit the bed against a very hot LA. RL is not responsible for any of that. He's still a top 5 goalie in my opinion. If he had only 5 or 6 years left on his contract, it's be another story for trade options.
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby Mondi » Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:10 pm

dbr wrote:
Mondi wrote:All things being equal (i.e. the team in front of you and the grind of the playoffs), some players step up in the SCF (and elimination games) and some don't.


All things are rarely if ever equal.


Yeah, and in this case Luongo had better teams than the goalies listed (save MAF). And he still didn't win a Cup.
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby donlever » Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:17 pm

Mondi wrote:
dbr wrote:
Mondi wrote:All things being equal (i.e. the team in front of you and the grind of the playoffs), some players step up in the SCF (and elimination games) and some don't.


All things are rarely if ever equal.


Yeah, and in this case Luongo had better teams than the goalies listed (save MAF). And he still didn't win a Cup.


....you don't get tired of debating Luongo?

I mean, how many years has this been going on?

Not critiquing, just wondering, because I could be construed as leaning more towards your line of thinking but simply had enough of the discussion some 18 months ago personally.

It is what it is, right Bert?
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby Tciso » Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:26 pm

Mondi wrote:
dbr wrote:
Mondi wrote:All things being equal (i.e. the team in front of you and the grind of the playoffs), some players step up in the SCF (and elimination games) and some don't.


All things are rarely if ever equal.


Yeah, and in this case Luongo had better teams than the goalies listed (save MAF). And he still didn't win a Cup.


On paper he did, but we were badly injured during the playoffs, and while our team is great in the regular season rules, we are not built for the playoff rules. A lot of apples and oranges in the comparisons.
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby Mondi » Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:46 pm

donlever wrote:
....you don't get tired of debating Luongo?

I mean, how many years has this been going on?

Not critiquing, just wondering, because I could be construed as leaning more towards your line of thinking but simply had enough of the discussion some 18 months ago personally.

It is what it is, right Bert?


At this point, I'm just glad you know I've been around that long ;).

He's a good goalie, he's just had a number of cracks here with the best team we've ever iced. Sure he's part of the success but he's also been part of the failures.

With respect to this debate, I just see his value on the trade market as being good, but not great.

If we get one of Morgan Riley or Jake Gardiner I will be pleasantly surprised. Though I won't be shocked. And if we end up with Tyler Bozak and a first, I'll be happy about it.
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby RoyalDude » Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:51 pm

Mondi wrote:Everyone is so willing to give RL a pass for not one, but THREE playoff series where he brought his gas can to the crease, but everyone quickly throws the likes of Quick, Fleury, Thomas and Ward under the bus when those four have only thing that means anything, cup rings.

If people as many excuses for MAF as they did for RL he'd be up for consideration for the Hall of Fame already...he's done what Luongo did (take at team to the SCF) and then won a friggin' cup.

Only thing separating him from HoF consideration is a Cup, and we've seen his playoff performances in the clutch.


You keep going on about Lou and how he 'has never won the cup'. Mondi.

Here is a list done by the Bleacher Report of the '20 Best Players To Never Win The Cup' - http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1188 ... tanley-cup

The player who tops the list - Marcel Dionne, I mean what a fucking shitty hockey player cause he's never won the cup, but current LA Kings like Dustin Penner and Colin Fraser are ten times the better hockey players cause they've won a cup, I mean fuck, it's that simple, Batman.

The one goalie on that list Curtis Joseph, what a SHITE goalie for not ever winning the cup!

Thanks for pointing out to me Mondi, that it's Luongo's sole responsibility for his team to win the cup all by myself. All this time I thought it was a team game.

As for Fleury winning the cup, you ever take in account the best player in the world right now, Sidney Crosby and one who is not to far behind him for that consdiration Malkin are his teamates and that they might have had something to do with winning the cup?

Lets give Quick a few more seasons before we start labelling him as a 'Great' goalie.

Rinne has had the luxury of playing behind what was considerably the stingiest defense and defensive system in the entire league. Same goes for Thomas and the defense in front of him.

Who was the goalie that won the cup with the Blackhawks a couple seasons ago? I can't even remember. Why? Cause the Hawks won for reasons outside of goaltending. Osgood, how many cups he win? He must be one of the greatest goalies of all time for winning a cup.
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby Mondi » Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:16 am

You make irrelevant points to this discussion.

It's not that there aren't good/great players without Cups, it is that Luongo saves his career-worst performances for the biggest games. I have never doubted his ability, but his follow-through is what I questioned.

Beyond that, goalies and forwards are not really comparable. Nor do you seem comprehend the fact that RL played for one of the best teams (statistically) in the last 20 years. Dionne was a King in the late 70s and early 80s..not exactly the Kings heyday. But, he had a few good team around him....of course he was playing in era when NYI and EDM were legendary teams.I'm not sure the comparison is useful at all in fact.

However, Joseph...that's a good comparison. Decent career, never really broke through in the playoffs.

Now as I ask you...would you have traded Mattias Ohlund or Ed Jovanovski for Cujo in 2001?
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby Jovocop » Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:40 am

Mondi wrote:You make irrelevant points to this discussion.

It's not that there aren't good/great players without Cups, it is that Luongo saves his career-worst performances for the biggest games. I have never doubted his ability, but his follow-through is what I questioned.

Beyond that, goalies and forwards are not really comparable. Nor do you seem comprehend the fact that RL played for one of the best teams (statistically) in the last 20 years. Dionne was a King in the late 70s and early 80s..not exactly the Kings heyday. But, he had a few good team around him....of course he was playing in era when NYI and EDM were legendary teams.I'm not sure the comparison is useful at all in fact.

However, Joseph...that's a good comparison. Decent career, never really broke through in the playoffs.

Now as I ask you...would you have traded Mattias Ohlund or Ed Jovanovski for Cujo in 2001?


Actually RD made some very good points :crazy:. Do you consider Ben Eager a very good hockey player just because he won a cup with the Hawks? The same idiot who singlehandedly lost the SJ-Van series by running at the Canucks.

You could argue that Luongo did not raise his game X times to win game 7 in SCF; however, you could also agrue that the other injured players did not raise their games Y times to win game 7 as well. Most of our problems with Luongo is really his play vs his paycheck (not cap hit). If he got paid $2m a year instead of $10m, I bet you would not even complain about his performance in game 7. The same thing applies to Steve Bernier. If he got paid less than $1m a year instead of $2.5m, I doubt anyone would even complain about him as a Canuck.
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby Tiger » Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:19 am

Jovocop said :
You could argue that Luongo did not raise his game X times to win game 7 in SCF; however, you could also agrue that the other injured players did not raise their games Y times to win game 7 as well.


Nope I would argue that our top 3 players .. Luongo and 2 Sedins where on the ice for all 4 goals against and that the Sedins are just as culpable for poor defensive play and not raising their game offensively.

Your arguement about trading a star dman for a goaltender is a bit faulty.. WE DID JUST THAT.. Aucoin and a draft choice for Cloutier..
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