Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by Jovocop » Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:58 pm

Todd Bersnoozi wrote:That would be nice if we can afford it, but having a $6 mill backup for most of the season is just not feasible in today's salary cap NHL.

ukcanuck wrote:yeah well then we should keep him and have him as our back up until the trade deadline and see what he's worth then.
The worst case scenario is 1A/1B instead of a startup and backup goalies. Luongo will not be a full time backup.

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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by dbr » Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:00 pm

Luongo doesn't have a NMC, it is a modified NTC - and while Mike Gillis may never waive him, some other GM could if they chose to. (I don't think many would.)

Of course it remains to be seen whether the next CBA (or the one after that) would make it worth anyone's while to waive a player with a $5.3m cap hit.

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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by Meds » Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:56 pm

Zedlee wrote: duh...doesn't Luongo have a "no movement" clause? No minors for him.
Not according to capgeek. He has a No Trade Clause, but not a NMC.

For whatever capgeek's info is worth anyways.

Lever is right regardless, GMMG is not going to park him in the AHL.

Edit: dbr beat me to it...

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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by Blob Mckenzie » Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:18 pm

Fred wrote:Honestly would you give up Rielly or Gardiner if you were BB, he'd be lynched. Both young players best yet to come for a 33 year old goalie ranked 16th in the league for GA and 12th for SV%, & 14th for games won playing on the President Trophy team, he wasn't back stopping the Columbus Blue Jackets with those number.
Luongo's numbers for the past 7 or 8 eight years combined put him in the top 5 for average, save pctg and wins. He is a top 8 golaie in the league no matter what you think.

Then again this is the same poster who shouted from the rooftops the Alex Mogilny's play went into the toilet when he left Vancouver. Yes quite the ride into the shitter for Almo, winning a cup and putting up almost a ppg finishing out his career.
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by Blob Mckenzie » Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:42 pm

Mondi wrote:Why are we considering Luongo's numbers over the past 8 seasons?

He should be judged on his most recent body of work (i.e. one or two seasons max).

He's middle of the pack, I'd say from 10 to 15 of all starting goalies and trending down.

Why anyone would think that a top 5 overall pick is a fair trade or perhaps even a deal for Leaves, I cannot understand.

Not precisely comparable, but would anyone have traded Mattias Ohlund in 2001 for Ed Belfour? Or Curtis Joseph? I wouldn't have. And Rielly and Gardiner, may have more upside than Ohlund.

There is no reason to expect junk for RL, but I'm thinking a recent top 5 pick is unlikely. I hope I'm wrong.
So after one less than stellar season after 8 great years he's washed up ?
Middle of the pack after years of consistency ? Other than Rinne, Quick, Lunquist and Price.....maybe a couple others , I'm not sure who the better goalies in the league are. I think ranking him in the 10 - 15 range is a little harsh.
I wonder if all players are held to that high of a standard.
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by Southern_Canuck » Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:45 pm

Mondi wrote:Why are we considering Luongo's numbers over the past 8 seasons?

He should be judged on his most recent body of work (i.e. one or two seasons max).

He's middle of the pack, I'd say from 10 to 15 of all starting goalies and trending down.
2011-12
16th in GAA (2.41)
12th in SV% (0.919)

2010-11
2nd in GAA (2.11)
4th in SV% (0.928)

2009-10
19th in GAA (2.57)
18th in SV% (0.913)

2008-09
5th in GAA (2.34)
5th in SV% (0.920)

2007-08
13th in GAA (2.38)
14th in SV% (0.917)

2006-07
6th in GAA (2.29)
4th in SV% (0.921)

All I see is an incredibly consistent and great goalie, backed up by consistently good stats. Did you say that after 2009-10 as well?

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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by Blob Mckenzie » Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:20 pm

They probably won't get Rielly or Gardiner......but if the Leaves get off to a shitty start perhaps Burke could be convinced to push the panic button.

I would be ok with a 2013 1st rounder.......with Luongo there i believe the Leaves make the playoffs so it would probly be a 16th- 20th overall pick in a deep draft. I'd also ask for one or both of Tyler Biggs and Matt Finn. If Burke will only cough up one maybe take Frattin off his hands........maybe Bozak to fill a hole for a year or two.

I will be furious if Kadri or Colborne comes back this way.
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by RoyalDude » Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:51 pm

Potatoe1 wrote:
As for Pertovic, it isn't about him being an NHL player or not. You said clearly that we needed a potential star prospect for Luongo. You can hype Petrovic as much as you like but NO ONE thinks he is a potential star.

Most, if not everyone, has his pegged as a physical stay at home type.

BTW have you even seen Petrovic play live?
Listen Pot Pourri. When I mention Petrovic I talk of his role in the grand scheme of a Lou trade as sort of a throw in, sort of what Kadri and Colbourne would be in a Toronto deal. I do not, have not, will not ever consider Petro as 'Star Potential', but if it is absolutely impossible for Gillis to get star potential I would much rather have a stab at Florida's 2nd tier prospects over Toronto's 2nd tier prospects.

I don't know Pot, you seem to like these sort of lightweight AHL superstars who lack those intangibles to make it in the NHL cause they simply are not THAT skilled enough to seperate themselves from the pack to have staying power in the league, ie Tambellini, Steve Kariya and the plethora of similar type AHL superstars out there past and present whom could never make the jump. I strongly feel that Kadri and Colbourne will be those types, they don't give you enough in other areas to make up for the fact that they cannot produce at a high clip offensively like the have and done in lesser leagues.

The reason I like Petrovic is that he has those intangibles that will enable to have a long career in the NHL which is why Hockeysfuture gives Petrovic a 'B' in the 'Probability of Success' category where as Kadri and Colbourne get a 'C' in the 'Probability of Success' category. Florida has 4 prospects with a 'B' rating in that category, Huberdeau, Bjugstad, Howden and Petrovic. I don't think we will be able to land Huberdeau or Bjugstad but I would be much more happy to land Howden and Petrovic over lets say Kadri and Colbourne by a country mile, if GILLIS simply cannot land 'star potential' in return for Lou.

It all comes down to, which prospects you think can translate their game to a long career in the NHL no matter the type of role they play and I believe that Howden and Petrovic do have that ability and Kadri and Colbourne do not.
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by RoyalDude » Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:59 pm

Blob Mckenzie wrote:
I will be furious if Kadri or Colborne comes back this way.
You and I may not agree on a lot of things Blobby Beers, other than that we both agree that the Arms Pub in that shite strip mall in PoCo is the best damn, greasy, hole in the wall pub of the Tri-Cities but I 100% agree with you regarding Kadri and Colbourne.
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by dbr » Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:18 pm

I'd be be disappointed if the best player we get back for Luongo at the time of the trade is Tyler Bozak (unless the deal is clearly tilted towards futures and we're getting a Reilly or Bjugstad type prospect in the deal).

If we can't get Reilly or Gardiner from Toronto I'd be asking for Carl Gunnarson plus a pick and one of their better prospects.

But if the Leaves or anyone else think they are getting a top 5-10 goaltender (yes Mondi that's what he is, your longstanding distaste for him aside) without giving up a decent player on or even near their roster they had better be prepared to pay through the nose.

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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by The_Pauser » Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:27 pm

Mondi wrote:Yeah, fine. Maybe Luongo is top 5.

Regardless a guy 33, who is known for blowing up when it counts is not going to net you a top 5 pick. Hardly anyone is.

For the record, I didn't say he was washed up. I also didn't say to expect crap.

But, in my view, there are a number of goalies in a group with RL who can are comparable in value and may or may not be rated higher by subject assessment.

I'd say outside of Rinne, Quick and Lundqvist the following list are goalies worthy of comparison based on performance, value and potential over the next 4 to 5 seasons (in no particular order):

1. Schneider
2. Price
3. Fleury
4. Rask
5. Elliot
6. Miller
7. Hiller
8. Smith
9. Howard
10. Ward
This is a joke right? You would seriously take MA Fleury, Brian Elliot, Ryan Miller, Jonas Hiller, Mike Smith, Jimmy Howard and Cam Ward over Roberto Luongo? Am I on Punked or something?

Hell, what have Pekka Rinne, Tuukka Rask, Cory Schneider and Carey Price even done that has them ahead of Luongo?

What's funny is Henrik Lundqvist hasn't been able to get the job done in the playoffs either, and in fact by Luongo standards has choked, yet he somehow escapes criticism.

Luongo is easily a top 5 goalie and just giving him away to a team like Toronto would be downright idiotic.

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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by RoyalDude » Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:47 pm

The_Pauser wrote:
Mondi wrote:Yeah, fine. Maybe Luongo is top 5.

Regardless a guy 33, who is known for blowing up when it counts is not going to net you a top 5 pick. Hardly anyone is.

For the record, I didn't say he was washed up. I also didn't say to expect crap.

But, in my view, there are a number of goalies in a group with RL who can are comparable in value and may or may not be rated higher by subject assessment.

I'd say outside of Rinne, Quick and Lundqvist the following list are goalies worthy of comparison based on performance, value and potential over the next 4 to 5 seasons (in no particular order):

1. Schneider
2. Price
3. Fleury
4. Rask
5. Elliot
6. Miller
7. Hiller
8. Smith
9. Howard
10. Ward
This is a joke right? You would seriously take MA Fleury, Brian Elliot, Ryan Miller, Jonas Hiller, Mike Smith, Jimmy Howard and Cam Ward over Roberto Luongo? Am I on Punked or something?

Hell, what have Pekka Rinne, Tuukka Rask, Cory Schneider and Carey Price even done that has them ahead of Luongo?

What's funny is Henrik Lundqvist hasn't been able to get the job done in the playoffs either, and in fact by Luongo standards has choked, yet he somehow escapes criticism.

Luongo is easily a top 5 goalie and just giving him away to a team like Toronto would be downright idiotic.
Mondi must have missed the shooting gallery playoff series between Philadelphia and Pittsburgh last year which might have been the motivating factor as to why Shero brought in Vokoun this off-season. I'm surprised Mondi didn't add the other culprit to that list - Bryzgalov.
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by The_Pauser » Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:49 pm

RoyalDude wrote: Mondi must have missed the shooting gallery playoff series between Philadelphia and Pittsburgh last year which might have been the motivating factor as to why Shero brought in Vokoun this off-season. I'm surprised Mondi didn't add the other culprit to that list - Bryzgalov.
It's really disgusting how criminally underrated Luongo has become. He is easily a top 5 goaltender. Right now I would have Lundqvist (although barely), Quick, and Tim Thomas ahead of him. Pekka Rinne might have a slight edge, although he hasn't shown anything that suggests he should be put ahead of Luongo conclusively. Either way though, Luongo is still in the top 5.

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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by Meds » Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:11 am

The_Pauser wrote:
RoyalDude wrote: Mondi must have missed the shooting gallery playoff series between Philadelphia and Pittsburgh last year which might have been the motivating factor as to why Shero brought in Vokoun this off-season. I'm surprised Mondi didn't add the other culprit to that list - Bryzgalov.
It's really disgusting how criminally underrated Luongo has become. He is easily a top 5 goaltender. Right now I would have Lundqvist (although barely), Quick, and Tim Thomas ahead of him. Pekka Rinne might have a slight edge, although he hasn't shown anything that suggests he should be put ahead of Luongo conclusively. Either way though, Luongo is still in the top 5.
I would even argue against those 3.

Thomas has been good, but when he hasn't had the all-world defense of the Boston "Clutch and Grab" Bruins in front of him he has been fairly average. I don't see him giving Luongo's Panthers of old a chance at anything. All the same, he is a competitor and at least Louie's equal.

Lundqvist is coming off an incredible year, but he has done far less in the playoffs than Bobby Lou. Regular season numbers are fairly comparable, Lundqvist has a slight edge, but last year's performance really gave him a nice boost on the career totals. He certainly has never carried a middle of the pack team into the playoffs and then proceeded to win a goaltending duel to get into the next round. Again, he's Louie's equal but needs to repeat this past season's performance.

Rinne has had one amazing year. Last year he was good, but his numbers dropped off. He is also back-stopping one of the most defensively focussed teams in the NHL. It will be interesting to see what his numbers do now that he has lost one of his top 2 defensemen.

Jonathan Quick is coming off an incredible year. But I'm going to say it, he didn't deserve that Conn Smythe. He was not the reason that LA won the Cup. The team steam rolled their opponents. Against us in the opening round he was quite beatable, it wasn't until game 5 that he finally put it together and actually won LA the game. Before that it was the team in front of him taking away Vancouver's chances, clearing loose pucks, blocking shots, eliminating second shot opportunities, and playing the clutch-and-grab-dead-puck-era-hockey that saw goaltender's numbers skyrocket and netminders like Dominik "flop around" Hasek post unbelievable stats by simply laying down and taking away the bottom of the net. Second round was more of the same, St. Louis threw alot of perimeter shots at the net. Easy work for the goalie. In the last 2 games they only got 21 and 18 shots on net. Phoenix, more of the same. The Finals? 17, 33, 22, 23, 19, 18. Those are the shot totals that Quick faced against New Jersey. Only in game 2 did he have to post any real numbers. Game 6 was a wash, thanks to officiating, from the half way point of the opening period. Quick had an easy Cup clinching game. He's a really good goaltender, but we've seen how rattled he can get in years past. I would like to see what would have happened if he had been our goaltender and Schneider or Louie had been theirs. We probably would have watched the Kings destroy the Canucks in 4 and the scores not even be close.

It's funny how quickly people dismiss some amazing seasons and games and compare a goalie to peers who have less experience and have seen the benefit of some amazing play by the players in front of them.

My problem with Luongo is that he is a slow starter and lets in soft goals at bad times. I still think he opened up the series against LA with a vengeance. He was incredible and the Canucks should have been completely out of both games in the first period, but Louie kept them in it with some amazing saves. Unfortunately a goalie is only going to bail his team out with unstoppable stops for so long. The fact that Vigneault went with Schneider tells me that it is perhaps the team that feels better with Cory in net.....and we have all seen the collective deflation that follows Luongo's gaffs. It is just time for a change.

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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by dbr » Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:21 am

Mondi wrote:Everyone is so willing to give RL a pass for not one, but THREE playoff series where he brought his gas can to the crease, but everyone quickly throws the likes of Quick, Fleury, Thomas and Ward under the bus when those four have only thing that means anything, cup rings.

If people as many excuses for MAF as they did for RL he'd be up for consideration for the Hall of Fame already...he's done what Luongo did (take at team to the SCF) and then won a friggin' cup.

Oh let's downplay Rinne and Lindqvist's accomplishments too, of course let's not considered these guys have never played for a team like 2010-2011 Canucks, who were, for all intents and purposes, the best regular season team in a decade. The 2011-2012 Canucks were pretty darn good too. Oh and so were the 2009-2010 Canucks. And 2008-2009 for that matter.
Most of the arguments you make against Luongo's position in the upper echelon of goaltenders (be it top 5 or 10) are highly subjective, don't be so shocked that many of the counter arguments are similarly so.

The fact is that a guy like MA Fleury has easily as many "choke" moment as Luongo.. the difference is that Fleury won one more game than Luongo did one year (and you could persuasively argue about factors other than the goaltenders that contributed to the different outcomes for the Canucks and Penguins in their playoff runs).
When considering a constellation of facts, including age, potential, past performance, salary, contract length and mental toughness, it is certainly debatable as to whether RL is a top 5 goalie.
This I totally agree with.

That being said.. if you look at all of those factors I don't think you can name three current goaltenders superior to Roberto in every area, let alone five.

It all depends how you want to weigh each of those individual considerations, and I suspect for you the trump card is that Luongo is one of the few active goaltenders who has failed the "has he let me down" test for you and other Canucks fans.

(Personally I believe "mental toughness" is generally colossally overrated when looking at professional athletes, sure there are softies who disappear in physical games and there are legitimate cases of players having awful games at the worst times but I don't think you win even close to as many pressure filled games as you lose if you don't have "mental toughness.")

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