Oils owner in seattle....?

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Re: Oils owner in seattle....?

Postby RoyalDude » Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:21 pm

Hey don't shit on Kerfoot Blobby Bear, he tried with all his mightiest to build his own stadium with his own money, WITH NOT ONE PENNY COMING FROM THE BC TAXPAYING COFFERS, but UKCANUCKS beloved DERA and some federally funded fat cat railroad company he dearly loves, their space above their tracks had something to say about it. What is so fucking hypocritical about DERA's approach to the Kerfoot stadium is that Gastown and the Lower Eastside is now the new Robson Street, all the top rich young techies, lawyers, architects, companies blah, blah, blah are all setting up shop their now, high end condo's going up everywhere in DERA's own backyard, high end restaurants, retailers litter the area BUT NO TO KERFOOTS Stadium, bad, bad, bad man that Kerfoot for wanting to spend his own money in our neighborhood. But hey, sure damn glad we spent over half a billion of the taxpayers dollars for a new roof over BC Place which is spitting distance from DERA's neighborhood. All in the name of the BC Lions 8 home games. Go LIONS Go! Go Boat Show Go!
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Re: Oils owner in seattle....?

Postby ukcanuck » Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:51 am

Blob wrote: shitty money


I really wasn't comparing leagues or teams financially or otherwise. Just suggesting that comparing oranges was better than comparing hockey rinks to football stadiums.

And in such a comparison, although I have seen neither in the flesh, is Cowboys Stadium three times the building that BC Place is? Just askin..

As for the cowboys being a money machine, did Tex Scam or whomever pay for their own stadium or was the taxpayer there on the hook, because somehow I'm thinking it's no better a deal for social
Programs in Dallas as the tax money spent on BC Place...

In a more personal question though why the hate on for the CFL? I get that some Canadian football fans prefer the American game, it's smaller field and 4 downs make for a harder hitting slower paced intense game.
I get that some would be attracted to the hype of the NFL machine and fall for the Hollywood factor.

But what don't get is the insulted attitude

Why does the fact that the CFL exists and that most Football fans prefer the Canadian league get up NFL fans nose so bad?
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Re: Oils owner in seattle....?

Postby dbr » Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:36 am

ukcanuck wrote:And in such a comparison, although I have seen neither in the flesh, is Cowboys Stadium three times the building that BC Place is? Just askin..


Well given you are saying we shouldn't compare apples to oranges, maybe comparing a reno to a completely new building is not the best way to put the cost of BC Place's new roof in perspective.

Anyway, Cowboys stadium has capacity for 110 000 and seats 25 000 more than BC Place does (80 000 to under 55 000) so they are not comparable buildings beyond both housing football teams.

I'd take Cowboys Stadium at $1.3b over a $563m roof (and if you include the 2009 phase of renos we're actually talking about $720m) from a pure bang-for-the-buck standpoint.

If you take the difference in the size of the businesses occupying the buildings its even more lopsided, some quick googling suggests the Cowobys revenue is triple that of the entire CFL.

I guess you could justify the expense of BC Place on the grounds that Vancouver needs a 50 000 seat stadium but I don't really agree with that. Anyway whatever, what's another few hundred million dollars of public money, amirite?
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Re: Oils owner in seattle....?

Postby rats19 » Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:44 am

dbr wrote:
ukcanuck wrote:And in such a comparison, although I have seen neither in the flesh, is Cowboys Stadium three times the building that BC Place is? Just askin..


Well given you are saying we shouldn't compare apples to oranges, maybe comparing a reno to a completely new building is not the best way to put the cost of BC Place's new roof in perspective.

Anyway, Cowboys stadium has capacity for 110 000 and seats 25 000 more than BC Place does (80 000 to under 55 000) so they are not comparable buildings beyond both housing football teams.

I'd take Cowboys Stadium at $1.3b over a $563m roof (and if you include the 2009 phase of renos we're actually talking about $720m) from a pure bang-for-the-buck standpoint.

If you take the difference in the size of the businesses occupying the buildings its even more lopsided, some quick googling suggests the Cowobys revenue is triple that of the entire CFL.

I guess you could justify the expense of BC Place on the grounds that Vancouver needs a 50 000 seat stadium but I don't really agree with that. Anyway whatever, what's another few hundred million dollars of public money, amirite?



ok , so we are 720m with the roof and 2009 reno...what was the original cost again?
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Re: Oils owner in seattle....?

Postby donlever » Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:13 pm

dbr wrote: Anyway whatever, what's another few hundred million dollars of public money, amirite?


Awesome dbr. LOFL!

So fukin great it actually made me log on and post which i have little motivation to do anymore.

Well played sir.

GODS STADIUM IN ARLINGTON

Cost of Construction $1.15 billion

Stadium Financing City sales tax increased by one-half of a percent, the hotel occupancy tax by 2 percent, and car rental tax by 5 percent. The City of Arlington provided $325 million in funding, and Jerry Jones covered any cost overruns. Also, the NFL provided the Cowboys with an additional $150 million.

And yes, it is 3 times the building that BC Place is.

To start.
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Re: Oils owner in seattle....?

Postby rats19 » Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:09 pm

So fukin great it actually made me log on and post which i have little motivation to do anymore.


which is a shame ...... :blush:
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Re: Oils owner in seattle....?

Postby ukcanuck » Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:14 pm

Maybe it's a shitty comparison, I only thought of it cause I understand the replay clock in BC place is second only to the one in Dallas.

I think if the stadium was just intended for the bclions and a boat show, it probably. Would be a colossal waste of money, but its too easy to forget all the other events that have been held in the dome, not the least of which was Expo 86 which heralded the a huge economic boom that has seen Vancouver grow from a small city on the edge of nowhere to an international world class community.

It seems to me that a city like Vancouver needs to have a facility like BC place to keep it from falling into the same category as bountiful in the Rockies.

One of the first things that struck me about how freaking huge the city of London was by comparison to Vancouver is that there are four or five stadiums like BC place including the one they built for the olys.
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Re: Oils owner in seattle....?

Postby ukcanuck » Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:47 pm

donlever wrote:
dbr wrote:  Anyway whatever, what's another few hundred million dollars of public money, amirite?


Awesome dbr. LOFL!

So fukin great it actually made me log on and post which i have little motivation to do anymore.

Well played sir.

 GODS STADIUM IN ARLINGTON

Cost of Construction $1.15 billion 

Stadium Financing City sales tax increased by one-half of a percent, the hotel occupancy tax by 2 percent, and car rental tax by 5 percent. The City of Arlington provided $325 million in funding, and Jerry Jones covered any cost overruns. Also, the NFL provided the Cowboys with an additional $150 million. 

And yes, it is 3 times the building that BC Place is.

To start.

So what you are saying is that "God's" stadium is worth the cost to taxpayers?

(Not betraying any bias in calling it God's instead of Cowboy stadium at all?)


I don't know what the deal was or is for BC place but tax dollars are tax dollars and the figures you list for God's Stadium doesn't say how much  the public paid vs how much is private and who owns the thing nor who gets the profits over time? 
I mean if all the tax money invested in it amounts to a loan for Jerry Jones what's so great about that versus BC place?

  If ones a white elephant and the other is a shrine, it sure looks like its because the NFL makes more money than the CFL ? 
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Re: Oils owner in seattle....?

Postby ukcanuck » Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:00 pm

dbr wrote:
ukcanuck wrote:And in such a comparison, although I have seen neither in the flesh, is Cowboys Stadium three times the building that BC Place is? Just askin..


I guess you could justify the expense of BC Place on the grounds that Vancouver needs a 50 000 seat stadium but I don't really agree with that. Anyway whatever, what's another few hundred million dollars of public money, amirite?


I guess that's a fair statement, except I might counter that if we were discussing building a stadium that didn't exist maybe Vancouver doesn't need a 50,000 seat stadium but we aren't. we're talking about investing in keeping an asset that we would lose both the original investment and the use of the facility without. 

saying its only boat shows and the CFL  is understating both and ignoring many more events that take place there. 
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Re: Oils owner in seattle....?

Postby dbr » Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:42 pm

donlever wrote:
dbr wrote: Anyway whatever, what's another few hundred million dollars of public money, amirite?


Awesome dbr. LOFL!

So fukin great it actually made me log on and post which i have little motivation to do anymore.

Well played sir.


Hah, thanks. I would consider myself to be pretty far left of center (just like uk by comparison to most on these boards) but even I have my limits..

Anyway nice to see you. And not just because you showed up to acknowledge my brilliance. 8-)

ukcanuck wrote:(Not betraying any bias in calling it God's instead of Cowboy stadium at all?)


Donnie is a pretty notorious Cowboys fan uk, but even so I am fairly sure the nomenclature is tongue in cheek.

I don't know what the deal was or is for BC place but tax dollars are tax dollars and the figures you list for God's Stadium doesn't say how much  the public paid vs how much is private and who owns the thing nor who gets the profits over time? 


His post said $325m from the city, I don't know how (or if) they split up the pie but that's less than half what the province has spent on BC Place in the last three years.

I mean if all the tax money invested in it amounts to a loan for Jerry Jones what's so great about that versus BC place?

  If ones a white elephant and the other is a shrine, it sure looks like its because the NFL makes more money than the CFL ? 


They spent half as much and got a vastly superior facility (from scratch) to what we got for our public dollars. And yes it is entirely because Cowboy Stadium meets a business need (ie. a place where you can charge 80 000 people top dollar to walk in the door once a week) where BC Place absolutely does not.

ukcanuck wrote:I guess that's a fair statement, except I might counter that if we were discussing building a stadium that didn't exist maybe Vancouver doesn't need a 50,000 seat stadium but we aren't. we're talking about investing in keeping an asset that we would lose both the original investment and the use of the facility without. 


Honestly I did not pay much attention to the whole saga, but I think it's probably excessive to say that the fine folks of British Columbia would have lost the use of the facility if they didn't drop almost three quarters of a billion dollars on it. As for the original investment.. what's that saying about throwing good money after bad?

Anyway like I said I haven't studiously followed the proceedings around the renovation but I seem to recall reading someone's suggestion that the province could tear down BC Place, sell the land to developers and build a more appropriately sized venue at Hastings Park for vastly less.

saying its only boat shows and the CFL  is understating both and ignoring many more events that take place there. 


Look at what's on the schedule for BC Place for the next few months. September is two Lions and two Whitecaps games. October is the same and they have the BC Home and Design Show for four days. November their only concrete dates are one Lions game and a Paul McCartney tour.

(Paul's playing a ton of venues smaller than Rogers Arena by the looks of it so I don't know what we'd be missing out on.)

You can't even get a December calendar for BC Place on their site, I don't know if that's because there is legitimately nothing going on or what.
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Re: Oils owner in seattle....?

Postby Island Nucklehead » Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:09 pm

ukcanuck wrote:In a more personal question though why the hate on for the CFL? I get that some Canadian football fans prefer the American game, it's smaller field and 4 downs make for a harder hitting slower paced intense game.
I get that some would be attracted to the hype of the NFL machine and fall for the Hollywood factor.


For me it's the athletes. The NFL is unquestionably the best of the best at their sport.

The CFL game format is superior. But the NFL is where the talent is.

Maybe it's something like comparing European hockey (big ice) vs NHL hockey (small ice). Someone might think the big ice is better to watch, but it's hard to argue that the NHL has the better hockey players.
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Re: Oils owner in seattle....?

Postby ukcanuck » Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:29 pm

dbr wrote:
Hah, thanks. I would consider myself to be pretty far left of center (just like uk by comparison to most on these boards) but even I have my limits.. 

Anyway nice to see you. And not just because you showed up to acknowledge my brilliance. 8-)


I guess I have been arguing pretty hard for the players in this lockout because I am pro union, and probably pretty far left of centre in a lot of ways but in this case i'd point out it was a right wing government that spent the cash on BC place... All three times if I'm not mistaken.

But if I'm giving the impression that I'm arguing that the price tag was worth it for BC Place, I'm sending the wrong message.

I'm just asking questions and throwing up observations cause it's a slow news day...:( 

dbr wrote:
ukcanuck wrote:(Not betraying any bias in calling it God's instead of Cowboy stadium at all?)


Donnie is a pretty notorious Cowboys fan uk, but even so I am fairly sure the nomenclature is tongue in cheek.


My comment was meant to be tongue in cheek as well. I wouldn't seriously accuse DL of deliberate bias....much :) 

dbr wrote:
His post said $325m from the city, I don't know how (or if) they split up the pie but that's less than half what the province has spent on BC Place in the last three years.

just wasn't clear if the 325 mil was total amount or if the sales tax was in addition or for how long, or if the local government retains any ownership or if they get a cut of the revenue generated by the facility? 

UKcanuck wrote: mean if all the tax money invested in it amounts to a loan for Jerry Jones what's so great about that versus BC place?

Doesn't BC place still belong to the good folk of BC and all revenue comes back to the public? 
 
dbr wrote:They spent half as much and got a vastly superior facility (from scratch) to what we got for our public dollars. And yes it is entirely because Cowboy Stadium meets a business need (ie. a place where you can charge 80 000 people top dollar to walk in the door once a week) where BC Place absolutely does not.

I'll have to take your word for the vastly superior bit as I've seen neither stadium since before the roof was removed...but the few times I've watched a CFL game on the net  i've heard descriptions use the term "world class' and I'm thinking it's not a stretch to say its probably the nicest facility in Canada.

dbr wrote:
Honestly I did not pay much attention to the whole saga, but I think it's probably excessive to say that the fine folks of British Columbia would have lost the use of the facility if they didn't drop almost three quarters of a billion dollars on it. As for the original investment.. what's that saying about throwing good money after bad? 

Anyway like I said I haven't studiously followed the proceedings around the renovation but I seem to recall reading someone's suggestion that the province could tear down BC Place, sell the land to developers and build a more appropriately sized venue at Hastings Park for vastly less.

me neither, I've missed all of the drama surrounding the oly bid as well, but I'm thinking that there must have been similar concerns with hastings park as there was for the waterfront stadium idea.

I don't  know why they decided on a BC Place redux, Perhaps there was collusion between the government and the contractors or a kick back in some way? 

dbr wrote:
Look at what's on the schedule for BC Place for the next few months. September is two Lions and two Whitecaps games. October is the same and they have the BC Home and Design Show for four days. November their only concrete dates are one Lions game and a Paul McCartney tour. 

(Paul's playing a ton of venues smaller than Rogers Arena by the looks of it so I don't know what we'd be missing out on.)

You can't even get a December calendar for BC Place on their site, I don't know if that's because there is legitimately nothing going on or what.


but if you look back from 1986 to today can you say that the province hasn't made good use of the place? Is it stretch to say it's not going to get good use going forward another 30 odd years. 

I dunno like I said it's a slow news day hockey wise :( 
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Re: Oils owner in seattle....?

Postby ukcanuck » Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:36 pm

Island Nucklehead wrote:
ukcanuck wrote:In a more personal question though why the hate on for the CFL? I get that some Canadian football fans prefer the American game, it's smaller field and 4 downs make for a harder hitting slower paced intense game.
I get that some would be attracted to the hype of the NFL machine and fall for the Hollywood factor.


For me it's the athletes. The NFL is unquestionably the best of the best at their sport.

The CFL game format is superior. But the NFL is where the talent is.

Maybe it's something like comparing European hockey (big ice) vs NHL hockey (small ice). Someone might think the big ice is better to watch, but it's hard to argue that the NHL has the better hockey players.

I have no argument that the best of the best is what the NFL Is all about, the CFL is by no means anywhere near the machine that the NFL is, but I don't get how some can't spit out the words Canadian Football League like it's some kind of abomination.
It may be small time by comparison to the NFl but the C stands for Canadian, how could it be anything more than a small time version of the NFL ? And BTW it represents towns and regions that will probably never be big enough to have a NFL
team.

Why go out ones way to disparage a Canadian institution just because it's not your cup of tea?
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Re: Oils owner in seattle....?

Postby RoyalDude » Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:58 pm

ukcanuck wrote:
Island Nucklehead wrote:
ukcanuck wrote:In a more personal question though why the hate on for the CFL? I get that some Canadian football fans prefer the American game, it's smaller field and 4 downs make for a harder hitting slower paced intense game.
I get that some would be attracted to the hype of the NFL machine and fall for the Hollywood factor.


For me it's the athletes. The NFL is unquestionably the best of the best at their sport.

The CFL game format is superior. But the NFL is where the talent is.

Maybe it's something like comparing European hockey (big ice) vs NHL hockey (small ice). Someone might think the big ice is better to watch, but it's hard to argue that the NHL has the better hockey players.

I have no argument that the best of the best is what the NFL Is all about, the CFL is by no means anywhere near the machine that the NFL is, but I don't get how some can't spit out the words Canadian Football League like it's some kind of abomination.
It may be small time by comparison to the NFl but the C stands for Canadian, how could it be anything more than a small time version of the NFL ? And BTW it represents towns and regions that will probably never be big enough to have a NFL
team.

Why go out ones way to disparage a Canadian institution just because it's not your cup of tea?


It comes down to economics. The Cowboys owner can justify the cost of building that team from the value of the team(Cowboys) that plays in it. I believe the Cowboys are considered one the Top 5 richest sports franchises in the World with the Yankees, Manchester United etc., Factor in the amount of money that organization brings in, apparently the NFL is so rich that, from what understand, each team gets a massive cheque from the league at the beginning of each season that covers the cost for the whole year of each franchise. The revenues for the Cowboys is ridiculous, so they can justify the construction costs of that building. I'm pretty damn sure the economy of Dallas would be seriously affected if the Cowboys left town, not the case in Vancouver here regarding the Lions. There is no justifying the renovation cost of BC Place. But DAMN KATZ TO HELL! DAMN HIM TO HELL!
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Re: Oils owner in seattle....?

Postby Topper » Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:13 pm

http://www.economist.com/node/21563293

According to Forbes, the "boys are tied with the Yankees as the 3rd most valuable franchise in the world. Man United and real Madrid top them.
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