There will be a strike

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Re: There will be a strike

Postby Potatoe1 » Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:30 pm

ukcanuck wrote:



Since I am out of my depth and you are the self appointed know it all about NHL finances...

perhaps you can explain how all of this would not help Katz bottom line and how it would appear in a PA audit and more importantly, did you notice that Katz refused a PUBLIC hearing on the matter.



Look at you all bitter...

Katz want's his team to be in the best financial situation possible.

Much like the players have every right to get the best deal they can, so does the owner of the Edmonton Oilers.

And no he doesn't have to disclose his financials to anyone other then the tax man, his bankers and the NHLPA.
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Re: There will be a strike

Postby ukcanuck » Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:03 pm

Potatoe1 wrote:
ukcanuck wrote:



Since I am out of my depth and you are the self appointed know it all about NHL finances...

perhaps you can explain how all of this would not help Katz bottom line and how it would appear in a PA audit and more importantly, did you notice that Katz refused a PUBLIC hearing on the matter.



Look at you all bitter...

Katz want's his team to be in the best financial situation possible.

Much like the players have every right to get the best deal they can, so does the owner of the Edmonton Oilers.

And no he doesn't have to disclose his financials to anyone other then the tax man, his bankers and the NHLPA.


lol bitter? isn't that what you wanted?

Not really but I'm even more amazed that for you, public money going on the sly to a man wealthy enough to buy an NHL team is just good business, while supporting the players trying to get the best share they can for the sweat they put in is unreasonable.

But now more than that I am a little angry with myself for even giving your posts the time of day because here's your chance to prove that you actually know what you accuse me of not knowing and took me to task for yet you totally evade the chance.

You see, I am thinking that the tax concessions, development costs and bylaw changes the city of Edmonton will have to give Katz in order to keep his team has real dollar value that won't show up in the PA accounting because its not HRR. now I am admitting that I dont know for sure maybe you do?

You should hope that you do know because if you dont then it lends credence to my point that the player's money is public knowledge and its been real easy to point that out time and again. however, on the other hand the owners worth,the source of that wealth, their income, profit and losses are not as public, generally hidden and not even the NHLPA really knows for sure.
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Re: There will be a strike

Postby Cornuck » Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:49 pm

Speaking of lockouts and strikes, did the NFL get their replacement refs from out of work NHL refs?
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Re: There will be a strike

Postby Per » Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:05 am

Potatoe1 wrote:
I have been a small business owners since I finished my degree (which was in Business BTW).

I am quite familiar with the tax man and I think it's kind of amusing that you charcterise the relationship as "sacred" :lol:

So you're saying the tax man doesn't have you on your knees praying... Nor bending over like an altar boy?

But he's certainly extracting his tithe, eh?
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Re: There will be a strike

Postby Potatoe1 » Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:43 pm

ukcanuck wrote:Not really but I'm even more amazed that for you, public money going on the sly to a man wealthy enough to buy an NHL team is just good business, while supporting the players trying to get the best share they can for the sweat they put in is unreasonable.


When did I ever say that the players position was "unreasonable" I have stated repeatedly that they should try and get the best deal they can.

I'm a middle guy who sees both sides. The only reason you and I disagree is because your position is so far tilted towards the players. Well that and you seem to enjoy talking out of your ass (smile)


But now more than that I am a little angry with myself for even giving your posts the time of day


You certainly seem angry about something.....



You see, I am thinking that the tax concessions, development costs and bylaw changes the city of Edmonton will have to give Katz in order to keep his team has real dollar value that won't show up in the PA accounting because its not HRR. now I am admitting that I dont know for sure maybe you do?


Of course it isn't revenue. I'm sure the city maintains ownership of the portion it puts up.

That said, the teams revenue will go up drastically because of expanded seating and sky boxes. That of course is HRR.



You should hope that you do know because if you dont then it lends credence to my point that the player's money is public knowledge and its been real easy to point that out time and again. however, on the other hand the owners worth,the source of that wealth, their income, profit and losses are not as public, generally hidden and not even the NHLPA really knows for sure.



The NHLPA has full access, so they do know. You are right though we are talking about private companies so the information is not public. My guess is the NHLPA and it's auditors have non-disclosure agreements with the teams so they cant really comment on the owners financial position.

As for the players salaries being public, the main proponent of that is the NHLPA it's self.
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Re: There will be a strike

Postby Potatoe1 » Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:47 pm

Per wrote:
Potatoe1 wrote:
I have been a small business owners since I finished my degree (which was in Business BTW).

I am quite familiar with the tax man and I think it's kind of amusing that you charcterise the relationship as "sacred" :lol:

So you're saying the tax man doesn't have you on your knees praying... Nor bending over like an altar boy?

But he's certainly extracting his tithe, eh?



You may be right about the altar boy bit :)

To be honest my experience with the CRA has been reasonably smooth and I have always been fairly aggressive when it comes to write offs.

If you have a decent accountant and you get everything submitted on time, it's typically smooth sailing.

Audits are generally triggers by mistakes and late filings.
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Re: There will be a strike

Postby Topper » Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:55 pm

Potatoe1 wrote:You certainly seem angry about something.....

Survey says..........Missed his email from Jason Kenny.
Over the Internet, you can pretend to be anyone or anything.

I'm amazed that so many people choose to be complete twats.
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Re: There will be a strike

Postby ukcanuck » Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:48 pm

potato 1 wrote: You certainly seem angry about something.....

gee would it have something to do with the unwarranted smugness, I wonder?  

Or maybe the dishonest tactics your employing to try to appear superior? 

let's review a little shall we? 

I said in the post you responded to: 
UKcanuck wrote: Anyway, I thought you asked philosophically how anyone can support the players, and since I've been pretty vocal about it, I thought I would be philosophical about it in kind. As for being precise about estimates, nobody can be precise, because we can't be precise about all the numbers.


But this is  what you choose to focus on:
UKcanuck wrote: the numbers they release to the PA and the rest of us, academics and laymen alike are the numbers they choose to release and you can bet your ass, seriously, the real numbers are a closely guarded secret.


you ignore that I prefaced my statements saying I was being philosophical and not trying to be specific 

And then you jump on me wanting specific examples knowing full well that is beyond the scope of my claims or argument and this forum altogether. 

potato1 wrote: Ok so explain the diference between the rights of the PA and the rights of the IRS with regard to their ability to audit NHL teams?

While you are at it explain how a company with 100 to 150 mill in revenue is able to hide signifigant pourtions of it and still evade both the tax man and the PA's auditors (who are likely to be top notch BTW)


Despite the fact that you yourself recently cant or won't do it yourself,  I give you an example and tactic that we both know is in fact being argued by the NHL and the PA in the press- the different percentages based on DIFFERENT accountings by both sides...or in other words the league having different versions of HRR which   Shows that the PA does not accept the leagues numbers which in turn points to the suspicion that the NHL is not forthcoming with all of their information. Which was all I was alluding to in the first place.

potato 1 wrote:The PA has the right to hire their own accounting firm to go through the books, records, ledgers, etc at any time (15 teams a year). They can double check deposits, look at invoices, double check ticket revenue, view local cable deals, hell they can probably go down and double check the cash till statements at GM place.


More than anything what's pissing me off about the whole thing is that from the quote above, clearly you arguing something different than I am and while your sitting there all happy with yourself. you're totally and completely missing the point yet again and still...

It makes me want to repeat or rephrase my point but you'll probably  only just pick on some red herring, take it out of context and twist it to your advantage...

However, in the interest of fair play I shall try again...

In my humble opinion, it's to one's competitive advantage to hold ones cards as close to vest as possible in business.

When the owners and players agreed to a salary cap they linked the cap to revenue.
when they did so, they must have  negotiated what constitutes hockey related revenue, I am pretty sure (because it's logical) that the owners did not volunteer any information to the players and their lawyers other than what was asked for. If the players missed it or an argument could be made against being included, these professional businessmen who are experts at the game of  getting rich and winning at it are going to keep it a closely guarded secret. 

(Just like the taxman does not volunteer loopholes they know exist. Oh they have to tell you if you ask, but if you make a mistake and pay more than you have to because you didn't know about a paragraph in the tax law, they aren't going to voluntarily educate you. )

The grey area between what is revenue and what is income from other sources including ways to put off expenses for another day... which the owners and their lawyers search for full time, as they rightly should, means that the PA will always be catching up and never in a position of strength... It is this that makes me wonder about the owners position.

I don't trust the owners when they claim poverty because I don't know what the term means to them.
 
In corporate speak losing money means not making as much profit as expected.  It's another language altogether than the one called English. 

Sure the players lawyers can go through every sheet of paper and till tape 15 times a year,  whatever, that's all fine and dandy. But they will never find what is not there.
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Re: There will be a strike

Postby Potatoe1 » Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:26 pm

ukcanuck wrote:
potato 1 wrote: You certainly seem angry about something.....

gee would it have something to do with the unwarranted smugness, I wonder?  


Smug --- ME !!

No way, not this guy ! (smile)



And then you jump on me wanting specific examples knowing full well that is beyond the scope of my claims or argument and this forum altogether. 


I'm not the one who accused the owners of manipulating their HRR, nor am I the one who claimed the teams use 2 sets of books.

You are the one making there types of acusations so you are the one who needs to demonstrate some type of conceptual understanding of what it is they are doing.

The reason I took issue with your statements is that you were making fairly heavy accusations not only with out evidence but with out even the basic understanding of how or why someone would do the things you were saying.

This is pretty much the textbook definition of "talking out ones ass".


More than anything what's pissing me off about the whole thing is that from the quote above, clearly you arguing something different than I am and while your sitting there all happy with yourself. you're totally and completely missing the point yet again and still...



The point seems to be changing as we move along.
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Re: There will be a strike

Postby ukcanuck » Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:49 pm

potato 1 wrote: smug.....me!!

sigh,
Well it looks like we will have to agree to disagree, not only on what each has said, and what we think we have said but also what we think the other one has said as well.
I suppose that's the rule rather than exception around
Here :)
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Re: There will be a strike

Postby herb » Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:47 am

If every single fan called the league and gave their two cents, would it make a lick of a difference?

Regular season games have officially been cancelled, and that really pisses me off.

I called: 212-789-2000
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Re: There will be a strike

Postby Benjo » Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:13 pm

We've already lost our game vs. Pitts :scowl:
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Re: There will be a strike

Postby okcanuck » Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:53 pm

OK its official we now are losing regular season games. Whats wrong with this picture? I'll tell you whats wrong.

The NHL dispute is being led by two people, Feur (baseball origins) and Bettman (basketball origins) , neither one of which are true hockey people and neither one of which really understand the true nature of the greatest sport in the world. Both of these idiots have to go. Enough is enough. Bring in two real hockey people,like say Malholtra for the players and Kevin Lowe for the owners ,get them to hammer out a reasonable deal(probably half way between both proposals) and end this ridiculous dispute.

I honestly think the whole problem so far has been that the wrong people are leading each side. It takes people with a true passion for the game to try and settle this thing.

I for one have vowed that I will never watch another NHL game if this season is totally lost.I've had it with these prima donnas like Feur and Buttman destroying the game I really love. I'll watch my WHL games and the Lions ,but I'll totally block out the NHL.
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Re: There will be a strike

Postby Meds » Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:57 pm

I believe Lever owes us a rant.....
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Re: There will be a strike

Postby Per » Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:10 am

okcanuck wrote:OK its official we now are losing regular season games. Whats wrong with this picture? I'll tell you whats wrong.

The NHL dispute is being led by two people, Feur (baseball origins) and Bettman (basketball origins) , neither one of which are true hockey people and neither one of which really understand the true nature of the greatest sport in the world. Both of these idiots have to go. Enough is enough. Bring in two real hockey people,like say Malholtra for the players and Kevin Lowe for the owners ,get them to hammer out a reasonable deal(probably half way between both proposals) and end this ridiculous dispute.

I honestly think the whole problem so far has been that the wrong people are leading each side. It takes people with a true passion for the game to try and settle this thing.

I for one have vowed that I will never watch another NHL game if this season is totally lost.I've had it with these prima donnas like Feur and Buttman destroying the game I really love. I'll watch my WHL games and the Lions ,but I'll totally block out the NHL.

Totally agree! Get rid of the non-hockey people. Let the players and former players work it out.
At least we can assume they understand the need for the games to be played!

As for the netball and stickball people - good riddance! :evil:
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