Locked Out - get it right this time

Welcome to the main forum of our site. Anything and everything to do with the Vancouver Canucks is dicussed and debated here.

Moderator: Referees

Re: Locked Out - get it right this time

Postby Fred » Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:49 am

Another point regarding team locations. Many US teams the fans have no idea where Edmonton,Winnpipeg is and often don't turn up or buy tickets for those games. The attendance drops off for many Cdn teams in the US. The NBC contract was not based on broadcasting Oiler/Flames games. If you want a National rather than a regional TV contract you must have National coverage IMO
cheers
Fred
CC Legend
 
Posts: 3433
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 7:00 pm

Re: Locked Out - get it right this time

Postby wafflecombine » Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:05 am

Madcombinepilot wrote:But I know this.

his biggest failure by far has been his inability to ruthlessly crush the players union. If we have another lockout, Bettman had best DESTROY the players union SO IT NEVER HAPPENS AGAIN. If there is another war, be sure it is the last.


The duration of peace is directly proportional to the casualties inflicted on the enemy... hmmmmm.... where have I heard that line before??

I too am sick to death of hearing about how both sides are greedy, "the Bettman" is a dick (hehehe... good one Ovi) and how somehow we need cost certainty. Last time, the deal IMPOSED was Bettmans. It was supposed to do all the things they wanted. But like a poor cook he failed to understand how his ingredients would come together and bake. You can't blame players for gaming the system The Bettman imposed.

Besides... I'd be more willing to listen to league chatter if they weren't signing people to the types of contracts we've seen over the last 2 months while still wanting this new deal structure. Gimme a break... my hypocracy only goes so far.
wafflecombine
CC 2nd Team All-Star
 
Posts: 366
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:20 pm

Re: Locked Out - get it right this time

Postby Jovocop » Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:40 am

Aaronp18 wrote:
the Dogsalmon wrote:no...they dont work for us...they work for the owners and they owe a fiduciary duty to the owner...they dont owe fuck all to us (the fans)...


You're dead wrong, the players and owners alike owe everything to us!

Without customers there is no business, there is no income, there is no pay for the owners or the players.

The NHL would not exist if not for our support.

The customer is the boss, like any business.


Unless there is a customers' union, we, as fans, do not have much leverage. We can cry all we want but once the puck drops, we will be sitting in the arena or in front of the TVs...
User avatar
Jovocop
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 1721
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:18 pm

Re: Locked Out - get it right this time

Postby Aaronp18 » Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:32 pm

The fake Cory Schneider account is better than the fake Luongo account, yet another reason to keep Schneids!

Corey Snyder ‏@CoreySnyder35

The NHL, in an unprecedented move, has decided to personalize the lockout in order to galvanize the players into action. Details to follow.


Corey Snyder ‏@CoreySnyder35

The NHL has locked out Dustin Byfuglien and Kyle Wellwood from their fridges and all fast food vendors. #LockoutGetsPersonal

Corey Snyder ‏@CoreySnyder35

The NHL has locked out Roberto Luongo from his super secret twitter account and all Reality TV. #LockoutGetsPersonal

Corey Snyder ‏@CoreySnyder35

The NHL has locked out Dustin Penner from all IHOP restaurants. #LockoutGetsPersonal

Corey Snyder ‏@CoreySnyder35

The NHL has locked out Sidney Crosby and Alex Ovechkin from studios which produce crappy TV commercials.

Corey Snyder ‏@CoreySnyder35

In a bold move, the NHL has locked out Mike Commodore from "staying single, my friends" #LockoutGetsPersonal

Corey Snyder ‏@CoreySnyder35

The NHL has now announced that the Sedin twins are locked out of their bunk beds and their tree fort. #LockoutGetsPersonal

Corey Snyder ‏@CoreySnyder35

The NHL tried to lockout the Edmonton Oilers from all local nightclubs, but they weren't old enough to get in anyhow. #LockoutGetsPersonal

Corey Snyder ‏@CoreySnyder35

Really stirring the pot now. the NHL announces that TML has been locked out of "being terrible". Players are disparate. #LockoutGetsPersonal

Corey Snyder ‏@CoreySnyder35

New NHLPA negotiation tactic is to put our fingers in our ears and go LALALA until we get what we want. Thanks fans for being on our side.


Corey Snyder ‏@CoreySnyder35

The NHL announces that Patrick Kane will be locked out of his liquor cabinet, limousines, and taxis. #LockoutGetsPersonal

Corey Snyder ‏@CoreySnyder35

NHL announces headshots and concussions will be at an all time low this year due to "creative crackdown"


Corey Snyder ‏@CoreySnyder35

In a truly bizarre twist, the NHL has locked out Tim Thomas from NOT playing citing "fair's fair" rule. #LockoutGetsPersonal


Corey Snyder ‏@CoreySnyder35

If I knew where Bettman lived I'd go to his house, fill all of his keyholes with super glue and say "WHO'S LOCKED OUT NOW?"


Corey Snyder ‏@CoreySnyder35

The NHL has just locked out the family of sparrows that live in Shea Webers beard. Available to a good home, cheep. #LockoutGetsPersonal


I laughed at a couple of these.
User avatar
Aaronp18
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 1746
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:36 pm

Re: Locked Out - get it right this time

Postby Madcombinepilot » Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:44 pm

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=405840

lol.. Detroit guy gets hammered for calling a spade a spade..

The Detroit Red Wings have been fined an undisclosed amount by the NHL for comments made by senior vice president Jim Devellano in an interview that was published earlier this week.

The fine is reportedly in the range of $250,000.

...
Devellano held an exclusive interview with Scott Harrigan of Island Sports News, where he discussed the lockout and collective bargaining talks.

"It's very complicated and way too much for the average Joe to understand, but having said that, I will tell you this," said Devellano. "The owners can basically be viewed as the Ranch, and the players, and me included, are the cattle. The owners own the Ranch and allow the players to eat there. That's the way its always been and that the way it will be forever. And the owners simply aren't going to let a union push them around. It's not going to happen."

Devellano also said that players should take 43 per cent of the revenue, instead of the current 57 per cent, and let the owners manage the rest of their expenses.

"Yes, they are billionaires," Devellano said. "Good on them, they deserve it, but they also make their employees millionaires. Not a bad tradeoff for a guy like (Milan) Lucic getting what, $6 million a year? I mean good on him too, but he should be grateful. Understand, though, that these players want for nothing ... it's first class this, first class that, meal allowances, travel money on the road, the whole shebang."


crush the union. may it never raise its ugly head and cause me any irritation again. I dont care if crosby makes 7.5 million or 6 million. Just Play.
The 'Chain of Command' is the chain I am going to beat you with untill you understand I am in charge.
User avatar
Madcombinepilot
MVP
MVP
 
Posts: 1943
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 9:54 am
Location: Saskatoon, Sk.

Re: Locked Out - get it right this time

Postby the Dogsalmon » Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:54 am

Madcombinepilot wrote:http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=405840

lol.. Detroit guy gets hammered for calling a spade a spade..

The Detroit Red Wings have been fined an undisclosed amount by the NHL for comments made by senior vice president Jim Devellano in an interview that was published earlier this week.

The fine is reportedly in the range of $250,000.

...
Devellano held an exclusive interview with Scott Harrigan of Island Sports News, where he discussed the lockout and collective bargaining talks.

"It's very complicated and way too much for the average Joe to understand, but having said that, I will tell you this," said Devellano. "The owners can basically be viewed as the Ranch, and the players, and me included, are the cattle. The owners own the Ranch and allow the players to eat there. That's the way its always been and that the way it will be forever. And the owners simply aren't going to let a union push them around. It's not going to happen."

Devellano also said that players should take 43 per cent of the revenue, instead of the current 57 per cent, and let the owners manage the rest of their expenses.

"Yes, they are billionaires," Devellano said. "Good on them, they deserve it, but they also make their employees millionaires. Not a bad tradeoff for a guy like (Milan) Lucic getting what, $6 million a year? I mean good on him too, but he should be grateful. Understand, though, that these players want for nothing ... it's first class this, first class that, meal allowances, travel money on the road, the whole shebang."


crush the union. may it never raise its ugly head and cause me any irritation again. I dont care if crosby makes 7.5 million or 6 million. Just Play.




i'll wait...the NHLPA needs to go down...why a group of millionaires...who in many cases are individual private corporations has a union with collective bargaining rights is beyond me...
User avatar
the Dogsalmon
CC 1st Team All-Star
 
Posts: 665
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 9:12 am
Location: in the ainus

Re: Locked Out - get it right this time

Postby Per » Sun Sep 23, 2012 2:20 pm

the Dogsalmon wrote:i'll wait...the NHLPA needs to go down...why a group of millionaires...who in many cases are individual private corporations has a union with collective bargaining rights is beyond me...

I think the players union is not primarily there for wages, it's more about working conditions, to secure that the players get pensions, insurance and such. But since the union exists ( which I think it should, the NHL used to let its former heroes die pennyless in the gutter before there was a union ) they also engage in the salary game, which is more questionable.

Basically I think this would take care of itself if you dissolved the cartel and let the free market dictate what the players get. The problem imho is that the NHL is still using old East European price fixing. You'd need a court to break up the cartel and let each team decide for itself what it is willing to pay. Tha's the true free market way to handle things. But if the owners gang up mafia style, of course the players will respond in kind.
User avatar
Per
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 1774
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:45 am

Re: Locked Out - get it right this time

Postby Hockey Widow » Sun Sep 23, 2012 2:44 pm

wafflecombine wrote:Besides... I'd be more willing to listen to league chatter if they weren't signing people to the types of contracts we've seen over the last 2 months while still wanting this new deal structure. Gimme a break... my hypocracy only goes so far.



The more I think about this the more I realize that the owners did not sign these contracts in good faith. They had every expectation that the new CBA would roll back salaries and "fix" these things. I really think that the ownership group, especially Minny and Nashville, hope and need the new deal to help them offset this crap and I think this could be a huge problem getting a deal done.

The players are going to give into the percentage shift but they will want existing contracts honoured and grandfathered into any new deal while a lot of owners are going to want roll back. There is a way to do it that gives the NHL what I says it wants moving forward. Roll back the cap and salaries by "X" percent, count only the roll back salaries towards the cap BUT the owners must honour the full contract and the amount over the roll back is cap exempt, a one time grandfathering in. Moving forward the owners get what they want but they don't get to weasel out of these deals.

Want to fix term, simple, no new contract can extend past the existing, at the time, CBA term. If the new CBA is 4 years then no new deal can exceed 4 years in year one, 3 years in year 2, 2 years in year 3 and 1 year in year 4. Always seemed crazy to me that a deal could extend past a CBA anyway. The players want longer deals, sign a longer CBA.

Want to control salary inflation? Simple, make every player an UFA. Flood the market, when your contract is done you are UFA and now every player is competing for a job under the same terms. Supply and demand.
The only HW the Canucks need
User avatar
Hockey Widow
CC Legend
 
Posts: 3711
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:52 pm

Re: Locked Out - get it right this time

Postby the Dogsalmon » Sun Sep 23, 2012 3:07 pm

Per wrote:
the Dogsalmon wrote:i'll wait...the NHLPA needs to go down...why a group of millionaires...who in many cases are individual private corporations has a union with collective bargaining rights is beyond me...

I think the players union is not primarily there for wages, it's more about working conditions, to secure that the players get pensions, insurance and such. But since the union exists ( which I think it should, the NHL used to let its former heroes die pennyless in the gutter before there was a union ) they also engage in the salary game, which is more questionable.

Basically I think this would take care of itself if you dissolved the cartel and let the free market dictate what the players get. The problem imho is that the NHL is still using old East European price fixing. You'd need a court to break up the cartel and let each team decide for itself what it is willing to pay. Tha's the true free market way to handle things. But if the owners gang up mafia style, of course the players will respond in kind.



Per..if you examine the past you will find that NHL players have always been paid a far larger piece of the pie than the average working stiff. I believe that Cyclone Taylor made about 5,000 for the 1910 season(11 games I think). The average civic individual may have made 300. Please spare us the working class dog scenario when comparing pro athletes to buddy six pack as its not like these guys are playing for better working conditions or possibly a second coffee break during a 14 hour shift. When you make multimillions,the pension you get should be from your own hand.
User avatar
the Dogsalmon
CC 1st Team All-Star
 
Posts: 665
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 9:12 am
Location: in the ainus

Re: Locked Out - get it right this time

Postby Fred » Sun Sep 23, 2012 5:08 pm

Are all Unions not cartels. You don't have a choice, if you want to play in the NHL use MUST join the NHLPA. Of course players have the right to leave the league just like the owners are not forced to buy a franchise. In theory ( only ) they can sell the franchise. This is the way i see it, you join a club (what ever kind of club ) you have to agree by the club rules. Even Politicians have rules they must obey, same as union member and owners. Most unions are not democratic. Like other it's tough to argue with all the money they make they can't finance their own pension. The pension was introduced years ago when players really played for the fun and the prestige. I know guys that were drafted years ago who never bothered to play a game or turn up for camps but went direct to being an accountant or fireman. Tickets were next to nothing and so to were the salaries
cheers
Fred
CC Legend
 
Posts: 3433
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 7:00 pm

Re: Locked Out - get it right this time

Postby Tciso » Sun Sep 23, 2012 7:56 pm

Hockey Widow wrote:
The players are going to give into the percentage shift but they will want existing contracts honoured and grandfathered into any new deal while a lot of owners are going to want roll back. There is a way to do it that gives the NHL what I says it wants moving forward. Roll back the cap and salaries by "X" percent, count only the roll back salaries towards the cap BUT the owners must honour the full contract and the amount over the roll back is cap exempt, a one time grandfathering in. Moving forward the owners get what they want but they don't get to weasel out of these deals.


HW, I totally agree with you on structuring the new CBA this way. While I think the players are getting too much of the pie, the teams did sign contracts, and they should be honored. If the owners want to "fix" it, they should not be doing it on the backs of the current contracts, but on a go-forward basis. Your idea does both.

I'll even take it one step farther. In the new agreement, they should dump the whole notion of salary, and negotiate entirely based on the percentage of the cap. It's a built in inflation adjustment for players. For example, give a player a deal worth 10% of the cap for 10 years. If the cap goes up, so does his salary. Cap goes down, so does his salary. It fixes the idea that teams can inflate themselves out of long crappy contracts. They also need to dump averaging the cap hit over the contract, and make cap hits based on the current salary (or percentage). If they don't, then GMs and owners will look at the whole contract/cap mess and sign stupid contracts, assuming a future CBA will change the rules to fix it, and basically allow them to continue to cheat the cap for the next few years.

IMO, the CBA is more about how the owners operate with respect to each other than it is about the player's salaries. If the owners allow themselves to circumvent the CBA spirit with 13 year contracts with low cap hits, they are really not accomplishing what they say they want to accomplish, or fixing any of the real problems. Crush the union. Yes. But, put in rules that actually work for all teams, including the ones with too much $$, retarded GMs, or both.
The Cup is soooooo ours!!!!!!!
User avatar
Tciso
CC 1st Team All-Star
 
Posts: 973
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:44 am

Re: Locked Out - get it right this time

Postby Hockey Widow » Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:45 pm

Tciso wrote:h.

I'll even take it one step farther. In the new agreement, they should dump the whole notion of salary, and negotiate entirely based on the percentage of the cap. It's a built in inflation adjustment for players. For example, give a player a deal worth 10% of the cap for 10 years. If the cap goes up, so does his salary. Cap goes down, so does his salary. It fixes the idea that teams can inflate themselves out of long crappy contracts. They also need to dump averaging the cap hit over the contract, and make cap hits based on the current salary (or percentage). If they don't, then GMs and owners will look at the whole contract/cap mess and sign stupid contracts, assuming a future CBA will change the rules to fix it, and basically allow them to continue to cheat the cap for the next few years.
.



Not a bad idea and one both parties would stay away from. Too much uncertainty. If revenue keeps growing owners will be paying too much in their opinion and if it decreases players don't want to take the hit, but I like it.

With respect to cap averaging it works both ways. I would go one step further and say the cap hit is the higher of the annual average or the salary hit in any given year. It closes all loopholes and all the fancy footwork being done to entice players to sign with a team and yet circumvent the spirit of the CBA. Under this system a players hit on the cap will fluctuate with the terms of his contract.


Sheesh, if you read this thread it seems the fans are far more creative in offering solutions to this mess. I wonder if the NHL and PA read this message board, or the many others out there, that offer similar creative solutions?
The only HW the Canucks need
User avatar
Hockey Widow
CC Legend
 
Posts: 3711
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:52 pm

Re: Locked Out - get it right this time

Postby Tiger » Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:15 am

Love to see a "Fan Revolution" and cap ticket prices ! ( $25 for "nosebleeds ) , up to %50 ..

Though that aint going to happen.. So.. I looked at the KHL.. 27 teams from 7 countries.. now they have a " hard cap" of 36.6 million though to be fair the players only play a 52 game season and salaries are about 1/2 or less NHL salaries .. As of now there are 60 NHL players in Europe ( KHL, Swedish Elite and Swiss and other leagues ), playing hockey, getting paid and avoiding the lockout/strike.. Maybe they just eat sirloin instead of porterhouse steak .. No pain - no gain..

Love to see the NHL break the f*ing union and bring costs and ticket prices down.. ( YES IT COULD BE DONE),
With only 12 of the NHL teams showing a profit last year and 18 losing money a 200 million dollar investment in a hockey team + the risk of going broke just might be enough incentive for the owners to take a hard stand and make hockey profitable in markets like Winnipeg etc..
" If you cant beat them in the alley - you can't beat them on the ice
User avatar
Tiger
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 1044
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 7:09 pm

Re: Locked Out - get it right this time

Postby ClamRussel » Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:23 am

Tiger wrote: Love to see the NHL break the f*ing union and bring costs and ticket prices down.. ( YES IT COULD BE DONE)

You really think they would ever drop prices? Never happen. Thats like saying companies who save from the HST would have "passed on the savings" to the consumer. Right. If they break the union they'll take their new found profit margin & run. Only way ticket prices come down is if fans stay away. Supply & demand.
"Once a King, always a King"
-Mike Murphy
User avatar
ClamRussel
CC Legend
 
Posts: 3679
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2004 10:50 am
Location: New South Wales, Australia

Re: Locked Out - get it right this time

Postby Tiger » Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:35 am

ClamRussel wrote:
Tiger wrote: Love to see the NHL break the f*ing union and bring costs and ticket prices down.. ( YES IT COULD BE DONE)

You really think they would ever drop prices? Never happen. Thats like saying companies who save from the HST would have "passed on the savings" to the consumer. Right. If they break the union they'll take their new found profit margin & run. Only way ticket prices come down is if fans stay away. Supply & demand.


Probably right Clam , specially in the canadian marketplace where there isn't a hell of a lot of competition for the sports fan market.. But for many teams being able to make a profit and sell tickets at $50 would be a god send..

Your arguement about the HST isn't realistic .. my small company was able to save and passed it on to customers .. Only problem is the dollar actually weakened against the Chinese and other Asian currencies bring up the cost to the consumer of all Asian imported goods.. so the saving never showed..
" If you cant beat them in the alley - you can't beat them on the ice
User avatar
Tiger
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 1044
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 7:09 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Canucks Corner Chat

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: BurningBeard, herb and 7 guests