Locked Out - get it right this time

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Locked Out - get it right this time

Postby Madcombinepilot » Sat Sep 15, 2012 3:27 pm

with the lockout all but guaranteed, I wish to express my true thoughts on this.

It is once again billionaires vs. millionaires, where the millionaires were all created by the billionaires.

Like every other lockout hockey has seen, it has one inevitable outcome: the owners will win. They have more money.
The only card the players had was to separate the owners, and then they might have caved. With Quebec and Alberta deciding the lockout was leagal, there is no separating 3 teams and starting those cracks. The owners are unified, and they have more money. End of story.

People hate Bettman for all the wrong reasons. This will be the 3rd lockout during his tenure and he has failed the league and the sport miserably. I do not agree with all his decisions regarding where the NHL has gone over his reign, but I also did not have access to the informations he did, so its really hard for me to judge.

But I know this.

his biggest failure by far has been his inability to ruthlessly crush the players union. By going soft on them, the union has been holding onto hope that they could get more, and at every expiry date the fans have been let down. Bettmans weak leadership in the negotiations have led to all these lockouts. There is no way it should have come to this again. Weak leadership, poor vision, and lackluster execution. Thats why we have another lockout. After locking out for an entire season last time, he had his boot on the neck of the union and he let them get up again. A mistake. if he would have simply kept pressing that boot down for a couple more months, yeah, we might have missed a few more games, but this problem would have been solved. now its not. Its like a cancer. you have to cut it all out in order to survive. And he didn't.

I am past the point of caring if the average wage in hockey is 2.2 or 1.8 million per year. I simply dont care. its still more than the average canadians wage of $36,000/year.

If we have another lockout, Bettman had best DESTROY the players union SO IT NEVER HAPPENS AGAIN. If there is another war, be sure it is the last.

NFL football is looking better and better.
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Re: Locked Out - get it right this time

Postby Boston Canucker » Sat Sep 15, 2012 4:42 pm

Madcombinepilot wrote:with the lockout all but guaranteed, I wish to express my true thoughts on this.

It is once again billionaires vs. millionaires, where the millionaires were all created by the billionaires.

Like every other lockout hockey has seen, it has one inevitable outcome: the owners will win. They have more money.
The only card the players had was to separate the owners, and then they might have caved. With Quebec and Alberta deciding the lockout was leagal, there is no separating 3 teams and starting those cracks. The owners are unified, and they have more money. End of story.

People hate Bettman for all the wrong reasons. This will be the 3rd lockout during his tenure and he has failed the league and the sport miserably. I do not agree with all his decisions regarding where the NHL has gone over his reign, but I also did not have access to the informations he did, so its really hard for me to judge.

But I know this.

his biggest failure by far has been his inability to ruthlessly crush the players union. By going soft on them, the union has been holding onto hope that they could get more, and at every expiry date the fans have been let down. Bettmans weak leadership in the negotiations have led to all these lockouts. There is no way it should have come to this again. Weak leadership, poor vision, and lackluster execution. Thats why we have another lockout. After locking out for an entire season last time, he had his boot on the neck of the union and he let them get up again. A mistake. if he would have simply kept pressing that boot down for a couple more months, yeah, we might have missed a few more games, but this problem would have been solved. now its not. Its like a cancer. you have to cut it all out in order to survive. And he didn't.

I am past the point of caring if the average wage in hockey is 2.2 or 1.8 million per year. I simply dont care. its still more than the average canadians wage of $36,000/year.

If we have another lockout, Bettman had best DESTROY the players union SO IT NEVER HAPPENS AGAIN. If there is another war, be sure it is the last.

NFL football is looking better and better.


I hope for the exact opposite. I hope the PA holds out enough to crush Bettman. 20 years of this, um, leadership is enough. Time to move him along. I'm not saying everything he did was awful, but his time is up. I hope the players stay strong, not let us live in Bettman's dream of an NHL where GMs have as little flexibility as possible. In truth, I just want the thing settled asap, but I'll definitely favor the people who have earned their way into these positions, the players...I prefer a meritocracy to an aristocracy (hello, Dolan, Wirtz)
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Re: Locked Out - get it right this time

Postby Potatoe1 » Sat Sep 15, 2012 4:59 pm

Bettman may be an annoying little prick but it surprises me that people are down on his job performance.

As has been noted over and over NHL revenue has grown over 50% the past 7 years despite the economic down turn.

Profits while still not great, are up drastically over the same time period.

Further to that I totally disagree with the original post.

Betman did break the union in 2004. They folded like a cheap tent once the season was canceled and it took them years to get their shit back together.

They are putting on a brave face right now but everyone knows they will cave and settle on a lower percentage of HRR.

As soon as the league throws them an offer where they don't have to take a big and immediate pay cut but drops their percentage year over year, the players will most likely accept and the owners will see franchise values jump and their profits soar 2-3 years from now.

Unfortunately for the players the story has already been written.
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Re: Locked Out - get it right this time

Postby Strangelove » Sat Sep 15, 2012 5:17 pm

Madcombinepilot wrote:Bettman's biggest failure by far has been his inability to ruthlessly crush the players union.


Image

*hears UK's footsteps*

*runs away*

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Re: Locked Out - get it right this time

Postby Topper » Sat Sep 15, 2012 9:41 pm

Over the Internet, you can pretend to be anyone or anything.

I'm amazed that so many people choose to be complete twats.
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Re: Locked Out - get it right this time

Postby the Dogsalmon » Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:14 am

Boston Canucker wrote:
Madcombinepilot wrote:with the lockout all but guaranteed, I wish to express my true thoughts on this.

It is once again billionaires vs. millionaires, where the millionaires were all created by the billionaires.

Like every other lockout hockey has seen, it has one inevitable outcome: the owners will win. They have more money.
The only card the players had was to separate the owners, and then they might have caved. With Quebec and Alberta deciding the lockout was leagal, there is no separating 3 teams and starting those cracks. The owners are unified, and they have more money. End of story.

People hate Bettman for all the wrong reasons. This will be the 3rd lockout during his tenure and he has failed the league and the sport miserably. I do not agree with all his decisions regarding where the NHL has gone over his reign, but I also did not have access to the informations he did, so its really hard for me to judge.

But I know this.

his biggest failure by far has been his inability to ruthlessly crush the players union. By going soft on them, the union has been holding onto hope that they could get more, and at every expiry date the fans have been let down. Bettmans weak leadership in the negotiations have led to all these lockouts. There is no way it should have come to this again. Weak leadership, poor vision, and lackluster execution. Thats why we have another lockout. After locking out for an entire season last time, he had his boot on the neck of the union and he let them get up again. A mistake. if he would have simply kept pressing that boot down for a couple more months, yeah, we might have missed a few more games, but this problem would have been solved. now its not. Its like a cancer. you have to cut it all out in order to survive. And he didn't.

I am past the point of caring if the average wage in hockey is 2.2 or 1.8 million per year. I simply dont care. its still more than the average canadians wage of $36,000/year.

If we have another lockout, Bettman had best DESTROY the players union SO IT NEVER HAPPENS AGAIN. If there is another war, be sure it is the last.

NFL football is looking better and better.


I hope for the exact opposite. I hope the PA holds out enough to crush Bettman. 20 years of this, um, leadership is enough. Time to move him along. I'm not saying everything he did was awful, but his time is up. I hope the players stay strong, not let us live in Bettman's dream of an NHL where GMs have as little flexibility as possible. In truth, I just want the thing settled asap, but I'll definitely favor the people who have earned their way into these positions, the players...I prefer a meritocracy to an aristocracy (hello, Dolan, Wirtz)



my dear comrade...who do the players work for if there are no rich people who own teams???
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Re: Locked Out - get it right this time

Postby Aaronp18 » Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:38 am

the Dogsalmon wrote:my dear comrade...who do the players work for if there are no rich people who own teams???


Us.

They work for us right now, though this seems to be forgotten.

We are the ones paying their salary right now anyways. We are providing the profits to the owners through ticket sales, merchandise, parking and concessions. Every one of these fools owes us.

it's not the billionaires making the millionaires, it's all because of the fans support for this game and the league. Let's face it without fans the billionaires aren't buying teams and players aren't making millions of dollars.

I don't care what the CBA winds up looking like, just get it the fuck done! Now!

:mad:
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Re: Locked Out - get it right this time

Postby the Dogsalmon » Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:41 am

Aaronp18 wrote:
the Dogsalmon wrote:my dear comrade...who do the players work for if there are no rich people who own teams???


Us.

They work for us right now, though this seems to be forgotten.

We are the ones paying their salary right now anyways. We are providing the profits to the owners through ticket sales, merchandise, parking and concessions. Every one of these fools owes us.

it's not the billionaires making the millionaires, it's all because of the fans support for this game and the league. Let's face it without fans the billionaires aren't buying teams and players aren't making millions of dollars.

I don't care what the CBA winds up looking like, just get it the fuck done! Now!

:mad:




no...they dont work for us...they work for the owners and they owe a fiduciary duty to the owner...they dont owe fuck all to us (the fans)...
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Re: Locked Out - get it right this time

Postby Boston Canucker » Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:22 am

the Dogsalmon wrote:
Aaronp18 wrote:
the Dogsalmon wrote:my dear comrade...who do the players work for if there are no rich people who own teams???



How do the owners have a product without the players? And by that I mean, not just any players, but the best in the world? It's an old debate, does capital create labor or labor create capital. History shows it is the latter - as Lincoln himself asserted- without labor, business does not get off the ground...thus the value/leverage of strikes, withhold labor, apply pressure, extract improved conditions, and the very reason why business seeks to destroy unions, because labor united is very powerful, and business needs workers, the weaker the better they prefer. This is not a view I just happen upon, it is the core of my work at a business college, so I'm not riffing.

That said, I'm sure we will never agree on that matter, and I don't really care if we do. You side with the owners, I side with the players, although of course there are many more important issues in the world we'd all concede. I just hope this thing gets settled so we can get back to fretting about the Canucks's backup goalie, 4th line, 2nd unit PP and AV's favorite and least liked players...and I can prep for a fantasy hockey league draft.

Peace out, comrade!
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Re: Locked Out - get it right this time

Postby Aaronp18 » Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:30 am

the Dogsalmon wrote:no...they dont work for us...they work for the owners and they owe a fiduciary duty to the owner...they dont owe fuck all to us (the fans)...


You're dead wrong, the players and owners alike owe everything to us!

Without customers there is no business, there is no income, there is no pay for the owners or the players.

The NHL would not exist if not for our support.

The customer is the boss, like any business.
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Re: Locked Out - get it right this time

Postby Cornuck » Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:47 am

Aaronp18 wrote:The NHL would not exist if not for our support.


That's pretty much my opinion. But it's a really a complex organism with 3 main components. Each component is linked and with only 2, the organism dies. Right now, the fans are not part of the system and neither the owners nor players are making any money. The only fans that really count are the season ticket holders. Without them, the league loses most of it's revenue.

I don't care who 'wins' this lockout. It sure as hell won't be the fans. We'll just bend over and take it, and be asked to give up more money for tickets. And guess what? We'll do this again in another 6-7 years.

I hope that where ever you are, there is a local team that you can go watch. Enjoy the games (and cheaper beer).


Edit: I just read this in another place: "They should decide it in a shootout." :D
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Re: Locked Out - get it right this time

Postby okcanuck » Sun Sep 16, 2012 5:07 pm

Cornuck wrote:
Aaronp18 wrote:The NHL would not exist if not for our support.


That's pretty much my opinion. But it's a really a complex organism with 3 main components. Each component is linked and with only 2, the organism dies. Right now, the fans are not part of the system and neither the owners nor players are making any money. The only fans that really count are the season ticket holders. Without them, the league loses most of it's revenue.

I don't care who 'wins' this lockout. It sure as hell won't be the fans. We'll just bend over and take it, and be asked to give up more money for tickets. And guess what? We'll do this again in another 6-7 years.

I hope that where ever you are, there is a local team that you can go watch. Enjoy the games (and cheaper beer).


Edit: I just read this in another place: "They should decide it in a shootout." :D



I'll be watching the Rockets and happy to do it. To hell with the owners and players. I now hope they're out for the whole year, bunch of rich snivelling assholes.
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Re: Locked Out - get it right this time

Postby ClamRussel » Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:35 pm

Aaronp18 wrote:
the Dogsalmon wrote:no...they dont work for us...they work for the owners and they owe a fiduciary duty to the owner...they dont owe fuck all to us (the fans)...


You're dead wrong, the players and owners alike owe everything to us!

Without customers there is no business, there is no income, there is no pay for the owners or the players.

The NHL would not exist if not for our support.

The customer is the boss, like any business.


Bingo! Without billionaire owners perhaps everything is downscaled a bit, but there would still be hockey and there would still be fans....there would still be truckloads of capital to pay players and run the show. Its like the "music business". There has always been music, and if there were no record labels (there aren't many left) there will always be music. Things would be run different, for better or worse. The bottom line is, its the owners who have driven up the salaries & cost of doing business to where it is today. Revenues are up as a league....so why aren't all the teams profitable? Bad business model of having teams in regions that don't support the game. If there was a hockey guy in there, instead of the NY basketball lawyer, the league would be WAY healthier. It may or may not have the "revenue" that is has today but it certainly would be healthier and have less expansion teams still struggling w/ 2 for 1 + free hotdogs & beer sales going on all year long. Perhaps its not just the players who should be taking a pay cut....perhaps its the entire league including the owners...and Bettman. Contract a couple of teams, move a couple north of the border, start better revenue sharing amongst teams, get a fair CBA in place, reduce salaries, reduce ticket prices, reduce corporate purchasing of seasons tickets (so you get REAL fans in the barns)...let the corps buy the boxes, fix the schedule so each team visits each city at least once every season, reduce the pre-season games and chop the cost of those in HALF as a treat to the real fans who can't afford regular games but want to see the prospects. By stepping back a bit, and Bettman reducing his salary to show leadership, the entire league would be stronger. You'd have a healthier product and you'd have more rabid fans than ever before. You'd have better TV deals that could be shared evenly across the league. You'd have sellouts in almost every rink every night. The product on the ice would be stronger and in the end everyone would end up making more money as the game grew...the buzz would be crazy. The bottom line is, without the players there is no product. Without the fans there is no revenue. There's still lots of room for these billionaires to make oodles of more money, they will get their cake. Its just damn time all these fuckers started putting the game FIRST, everything else will take care of itself.

Having yet another lockout is a complete fail, courtesy of both the players & owners. The blood is on Bettman's hands though; commissioner - my ass. The guy is a corporate shill who doesn't care about the game and only the profits of HIS owners. There will be a price to be paid with this lockout. The fans will come back but there will be some who don't and some who are just a bit more cynical about the game they have always loved so much.
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Re: Locked Out - get it right this time

Postby okcanuck » Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:33 am

ClamRussel wrote:
Aaronp18 wrote:
the Dogsalmon wrote:no...they dont work for us...they work for the owners and they owe a fiduciary duty to the owner...they dont owe fuck all to us (the fans)...


You're dead wrong, the players and owners alike owe everything to us!

Without customers there is no business, there is no income, there is no pay for the owners or the players.

The NHL would not exist if not for our support.

The customer is the boss, like any business.


Bingo! Without billionaire owners perhaps everything is downscaled a bit, but there would still be hockey and there would still be fans....there would still be truckloads of capital to pay players and run the show. Its like the "music business". There has always been music, and if there were no record labels (there aren't many left) there will always be music. Things would be run different, for better or worse. The bottom line is, its the owners who have driven up the salaries & cost of doing business to where it is today. Revenues are up as a league....so why aren't all the teams profitable? Bad business model of having teams in regions that don't support the game. If there was a hockey guy in there, instead of the NY basketball lawyer, the league would be WAY healthier. It may or may not have the "revenue" that is has today but it certainly would be healthier and have less expansion teams still struggling w/ 2 for 1 + free hotdogs & beer sales going on all year long. Perhaps its not just the players who should be taking a pay cut....perhaps its the entire league including the owners...and Bettman. Contract a couple of teams, move a couple north of the border, start better revenue sharing amongst teams, get a fair CBA in place, reduce salaries, reduce ticket prices, reduce corporate purchasing of seasons tickets (so you get REAL fans in the barns)...let the corps buy the boxes, fix the schedule so each team visits each city at least once every season, reduce the pre-season games and chop the cost of those in HALF as a treat to the real fans who can't afford regular games but want to see the prospects. By stepping back a bit, and Bettman reducing his salary to show leadership, the entire league would be stronger. You'd have a healthier product and you'd have more rabid fans than ever before. You'd have better TV deals that could be shared evenly across the league. You'd have sellouts in almost every rink every night. The product on the ice would be stronger and in the end everyone would end up making more money as the game grew...the buzz would be crazy. The bottom line is, without the players there is no product. Without the fans there is no revenue. There's still lots of room for these billionaires to make oodles of more money, they will get their cake. Its just damn time all these fuckers started putting the game FIRST, everything else will take care of itself.

Having yet another lockout is a complete fail, courtesy of both the players & owners. The blood is on Bettman's hands though; commissioner - my ass. The guy is a corporate shill who doesn't care about the game and only the profits of HIS owners. There will be a price to be paid with this lockout. The fans will come back but there will be some who don't and some who are just a bit more cynical about the game they have always loved so much.


Clam for commissioner,although you might have to change your avatar
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Re: Locked Out - get it right this time

Postby Topper » Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:51 am

ClamRussel wrote:Bingo! Without billionaire owners perhaps everything is downscaled a bit, but there would still be hockey and there would still be fans....there would still be truckloads of capital to pay players and run the show. Its like the "music business". There has always been music, and if there were no record labels (there aren't many left) there will always be music. Things would be run different, for better or worse. The bottom line is, its the owners who have driven up the salaries & cost of doing business to where it is today. Revenues are up as a league....so why aren't all the teams profitable? Bad business model of having teams in regions that don't support the game. If there was a hockey guy in there, instead of the NY basketball lawyer, the league would be WAY healthier. It may or may not have the "revenue" that is has today but it certainly would be healthier and have less expansion teams still struggling w/ 2 for 1 + free hotdogs & beer sales going on all year long. Perhaps its not just the players who should be taking a pay cut....perhaps its the entire league including the owners...and Bettman. Contract a couple of teams, move a couple north of the border, start better revenue sharing amongst teams, get a fair CBA in place, reduce salaries, reduce ticket prices, reduce corporate purchasing of seasons tickets (so you get REAL fans in the barns)...let the corps buy the boxes, fix the schedule so each team visits each city at least once every season, reduce the pre-season games and chop the cost of those in HALF as a treat to the real fans who can't afford regular games but want to see the prospects. By stepping back a bit, and Bettman reducing his salary to show leadership, the entire league would be stronger. You'd have a healthier product and you'd have more rabid fans than ever before. You'd have better TV deals that could be shared evenly across the league. You'd have sellouts in almost every rink every night. The product on the ice would be stronger and in the end everyone would end up making more money as the game grew...the buzz would be crazy. The bottom line is, without the players there is no product. Without the fans there is no revenue. There's still lots of room for these billionaires to make oodles of more money, they will get their cake. Its just damn time all these fuckers started putting the game FIRST, everything else will take care of itself.

Having yet another lockout is a complete fail, courtesy of both the players & owners. The blood is on Bettman's hands though; commissioner - my ass. The guy is a corporate shill who doesn't care about the game and only the profits of HIS owners. There will be a price to be paid with this lockout. The fans will come back but there will be some who don't and some who are just a bit more cynical about the game they have always loved so much.


and players will give 100% on every shift, playing at a level up to and beyond the level expected in their contracts. The won't dog it defensively or only play at a high level in a contract year. They will maintain strict in and out of season conditioning regimes. They will help little old ladies cross the street and will not become a challenge to the teams PR department. They will practice hard and follow their coaches instructions.

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