The Final Nail in the Hockey Experience Coffin

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Re: The Final Nail in the Hockey Experience Coffin

Postby coco_canuck » Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:32 pm

ukcanuck wrote: :lol:
I'm starting to enjoy American politics over Canadian political figures, I'll go that far, but I'm still thinking a communications degree from U of C is closer to UCFV than Ryerson


I'm by no means pro-American, nor do I have a condescending view of Canada.

When it comes to the elite sportstalk broadcasters, the vast majority are in the US.

Unfortunately, we do not have top end, nor entertaining enough, Canadian sports talk show hosts. There are a couple who are worth listening to, but certainly not in Vancouver.

IMO, most Canadian sports talk show hosts do hockey a disservice with the way the generally approach the game, and more specifically, how they debate their local team.

There are a ton of shitty American sports talk show hosts who are no different than those we have here, but when it comes to the most talented, and generally entertaining talk show hosts, they're based out of the US, and nobody comes close to touching their abilities.

Really, there are less than a handful of sports talk shows I listen to from time to time.
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Re: The Final Nail in the Hockey Experience Coffin

Postby ukcanuck » Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:56 pm

coco_canuck wrote:
ukcanuck wrote: :lol:
I'm starting to enjoy American politics over Canadian political figures, I'll go that far, but I'm still thinking a communications degree from U of C is closer to UCFV than Ryerson


I'm by no means pro-American, nor do I have a condescending view of Canada.

When it comes to the elite sportstalk broadcasters, the vast majority are in the US.

Unfortunately, we do not have top end, nor entertaining enough, Canadian sports talk show hosts. There are a couple who are worth listening to, but certainly not in Vancouver.

IMO, most Canadian sports talk show hosts do hockey a disservice with the way the generally approach the game, and more specifically, how they debate their local team.

There are a ton of shitty American sports talk show hosts who are no different than those we have here, but when it comes to the most talented, and generally entertaining talk show hosts, they're based out of the US, and nobody comes close to touching their abilities.

Really, there are less than a handful of sports talk shows I listen to from time to time.

I'm not accusing you of anything so crass as Pro American or completely ridiculous as anti-Canadian and to be totally honest I haven't listened to any sports radio in over a decade since its mostly only available overseas by podcast and I am too busy for that, But I have listen to Rome before and his whole burn schtick seems to me to be designed appeal to the bottom half of the demographic gene pool...his attitude towards Soccer for example as a girls sport that he wouldn't allow his son to play just seems juvenile and not really about being informative or insightful....however, I am gonna take your word for it because you have been right about a few things once in a while :)
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Re: The Final Nail in the Hockey Experience Coffin

Postby Topper » Sun Sep 02, 2012 4:01 pm

coco_canuck wrote:
Topper wrote:
ClamRussel wrote:There sure is alot of talk about 'free market' and 'capitalism' for a league.

If that were the case, maybe 10 teams and 250 players.


Bingo.

I don't see much of a need to pick sides in the CBA debate, both parties have reasonable cause to get the best deal possible for their side.

If costs aren't controlled, then a 30 team league will be unsustainable.

The onus really is on the players to not let their share of revenues hinder the sustainability of a 30 team league.

However, there are a number of wealthy organizations who rake in money on an annual basis, and they also have a responsibility to share part of their revenue for the overall health of the league.

Obviously, both sides want the other to incur more of the cost of doing business, and right now they're bargaining to come up with a deal.

As long as the power game doesn't get out of hand, a deal should be made at some point over the next month.


Contraction is the 900lb gorilla in the room that no one wants to talk about.

The PA can't tell the players they are working for them if there are fewer positions to fill and the owners do not want to admit that some of their expansion decisions were folly.
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Re: The Final Nail in the Hockey Experience Coffin

Postby coco_canuck » Sun Sep 02, 2012 4:46 pm

Topper wrote:Contraction is the 900lb gorilla in the room that no one wants to talk about.

The PA can't tell the players they are working for them if there are fewer positions to fill and the owners do not want to admit that some of their expansion decisions were folly.


The more you think about it, the more confounding that situation really is.

One one hand, part of that silence likely has to do with two potential Canadian markets being available in Quebec City and a second team in the GTA. Although financial success isn't guaranteed in those markets, chances are they would have a better economic outlook than middling in Glendale or Miami. Seems the league, and perhaps even the PA, look at those potential Canadian markets and say, "at worst we'll move a couple up north."

But, where it gets confusing is the whispers that the NHL is potentially eying expansion to 32 teams. Much of that has to do with Seattle pushing for an NHL team, and Vegas' continued efforts to lobby major sports leagues. The scuttled divisional realignment certainly opened the door to expansion with uneven numbered divisions that would all become equal with the inclusion of two more teams.

EDIT It's not really confusing if their initiative is to gobble up expansion money.

I'm not sure how prudent it would be to expand a league that already has teams in markets like Glandale, Miami, Columbus, Nashville, Tampa Bay and Raleigh, not to mention the perpetual mess on Long Island.

Those teams have shown varied degrees of success, but winning has been absolutely necessary for any sort of success, which means, those markets disproportionally take it on the chin when things aren't on the up and up.

Contraction would make for a richer and more entertaining product, but that's not a gorilla they have any interest in challenging, at least not right now.
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Re: The Final Nail in the Hockey Experience Coffin

Postby ClamRussel » Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:00 pm

Topper wrote:
ClamRussel wrote:There sure is alot of talk about 'free market' and 'capitalism' for a league.

If that were the case, maybe 10 teams and 250 players.


I'd be all for that, a hockey fan's wet dream. In a reallity, even a 20-24 team league would strengthen the on-ice product immensely. Getting rid of 4 teams and moving 2 north of the border would make the NHL an extremely tight product with all markets solid. It would rid the league of the below average players that round out most rosters, players that in all reality belong in the AHL or overseas. It would probably get rid of players who hang around too long as well....fitness aside, there was a reason most players retired in their early 30s in the 80s....there was only 21 teams and the overall calibre was high (relative, I know). The quality of the game would be extremely exciting w/ some contraction. Expansion has done nothing but generate one-time payments to the owners and water down the league. Again, greed.
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Re: The Final Nail in the Hockey Experience Coffin

Postby Topper » Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:36 am

Moving a couple of teams north may seem like a good idea now, but remember not too long ago we had a $0.65US dollar and there was discussion of Vancouver, Calgary and others catching a Jet south.
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Re: The Final Nail in the Hockey Experience Coffin

Postby ClamRussel » Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:19 am

Irregardless of the dollar, ...and whether they move to Canada or not - they certainly need to at least be in hockey markets.

If you *need* advertise so people know there's a hockey team/game....you may be in the wrong market.
If you offer 2 for 1 ticket sales + free hotdog & beer...you may be in the wrong market.
If one can still purchase walk-up tickets to a playoff game...you may be in the wrong market.

The foundation must be strong. Another team in southern Ont is a no-brainer and long overdue.
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Re: The Final Nail in the Hockey Experience Coffin

Postby okcanuck » Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:11 am

ClamRussel wrote:Irregardless of the dollar, ...and whether they move to Canada or not - they certainly need to at least be in hockey markets.

If you *need* advertise so people know there's a hockey team/game....you may be in the wrong market.
If you offer 2 for 1 ticket sales + free hotdog & beer...you may be in the wrong market.
If one can still purchase walk-up tickets to a playoff game...you may be in the wrong market.

The foundation must be strong. Another team in southern Ont is a no-brainer and long overdue.


Exactly clam, why cant that weasle Bettman see it? I think a team in Seattle would do well too.
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Re: The Final Nail in the Hockey Experience Coffin

Postby Cornuck » Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:20 am

okcanuck wrote:Another team in southern Ont is a no-brainer and long overdue.


... and would still make the playoffs before the Leafs. :D
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Re: The Final Nail in the Hockey Experience Coffin

Postby Topper » Mon Sep 03, 2012 1:03 pm

okcanuck wrote:
ClamRussel wrote:Irregardless of the dollar, ...and whether they move to Canada or not - they certainly need to at least be in hockey markets.

If you *need* advertise so people know there's a hockey team/game....you may be in the wrong market.
If you offer 2 for 1 ticket sales + free hotdog & beer...you may be in the wrong market.
If one can still purchase walk-up tickets to a playoff game...you may be in the wrong market.

The foundation must be strong. Another team in southern Ont is a no-brainer and long overdue.


Exactly clam, why cant that weasle Bettman see it? I think a team in Seattle would do well too.

Under Bettman's tenure, the league added Nashville, Columbus, Atlanta and Minnesota. Nashville has been able to field a competitive team on a limited payroll and is slowly becoming a more steady franchise. Their limited salary structure has hurt when it comes time to retain marquee players. Columbus should be a hockey market with their very popular college teams, but management has never worked. Atlanta was a mistake. Minnesota was a no brainer into probably the best hockey market in the USA.

He also over saw the moves of the Nordiques to Denver, a huge success that has suffered recently for a variety of reasons, the North Stars to Dallas, Dallas is surprisingly a hockey town and hopefully Mr. Sandman has the ownership issue settled and that should no longer affect the on ice product. He also over saw the Whalers move to Carolina and the Jets move to Phoenix.

Bettman also oversaw the implementation of revenue sharing to bail out Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa and Vancouver.

The expansion to Florida was already done or well in the works. The mistakes were the Atlanta expansion and the Jets relocation.
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Re: The Final Nail in the Hockey Experience Coffin

Postby Fred » Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:06 pm

ClamRussel wrote:Irregardless of the dollar, ...and whether they move to Canada or not - they certainly need to at least be in hockey markets.

If you *need* advertise so people know there's a hockey team/game....you may be in the wrong market.
If you offer 2 for 1 ticket sales + free hotdog & beer...you may be in the wrong market.
If one can still purchase walk-up tickets to a playoff game...you may be in the wrong market.

The foundation must be strong. Another team in southern Ont is a no-brainer and long overdue.


With teams national situated throughout the USA the NHL was able for, i believe the first time, sign a deal like this with a major network. I can only imagine it will be mutually benefiscal in making the game more prominent. NBC will make sure the game is promoted mainly for their own benefit.

Industry observers were widely impressed with the decade-length of the deal after months of reporting on the League's courting by several suitors. NBC Sports Group will pay about $200 million annually, for the length of the contract, reports SportsBusiness Daily.

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Re: The Final Nail in the Hockey Experience Coffin

Postby ClamRussel » Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:08 pm

To veer this back on topic a bit...there is no way an organization with a thick rabid fanbase like Vancouver has, with a waiting list for season's tickets....that people actually PAY to be on....with sell-outs as far as the eye can see in both directions....should have to resort to cheerleaders. More accurately it should be teams that need cheerleaders to sell the game have no business even bothering to have an NHL franchise. It either sells itself or it doesn't. Cheerleaders in hockey usually goes hand in hand w/ 2for1 tickets plus free beer & hotdogs. Bringing in the Canuckettes is a nod towards the gimmickry of the Lingerie Football League, glowing pucks and organized food eating tournaments.
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Re: The Final Nail in the Hockey Experience Coffin

Postby Potatoe1 » Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:05 pm

Topper wrote:Under Bettman's tenure, the league added Nashville, Columbus, Atlanta and Minnesota. Nashville has been able to field a competitive team on a limited payroll and is slowly becoming a more steady franchise. Their limited salary structure has hurt when it comes time to retain marquee players. Columbus should be a hockey market with their very popular college teams, but management has never worked. Atlanta was a mistake. Minnesota was a no brainer into probably the best hockey market in the USA.

He also over saw the moves of the Nordiques to Denver, a huge success that has suffered recently for a variety of reasons, the North Stars to Dallas, Dallas is surprisingly a hockey town and hopefully Mr. Sandman has the ownership issue settled and that should no longer affect the on ice product. He also over saw the Whalers move to Carolina and the Jets move to Phoenix.

Bettman also oversaw the implementation of revenue sharing to bail out Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa and Vancouver.

The expansion to Florida was already done or well in the works. The mistakes were the Atlanta expansion and the Jets relocation.



This post should probably be repeated a few times.
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Re: The Final Nail in the Hockey Experience Coffin

Postby Potatoe1 » Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:13 pm

ClamRussel wrote:To veer this back on topic a bit...there is no way an organization with a thick rabid fanbase like Vancouver has, with a waiting list for season's tickets....that people actually PAY to be on....with sell-outs as far as the eye can see in both directions....should have to resort to cheerleaders. More accurately it should be teams that need cheerleaders to sell the game have no business even bothering to have an NHL franchise. It either sells itself or it doesn't. Cheerleaders in hockey usually goes hand in hand w/ 2for1 tickets plus free beer & hotdogs. Bringing in the Canuckettes is a nod towards the gimmickry of the Lingerie Football League, glowing pucks and organized food eating tournaments.


Again..

Who cares.

No one will stop buying tickets because of cheer leaders, and the corporate buyers who aren't big hockey fans might enjoy looking a bewbs.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter.
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Re: The Final Nail in the Hockey Experience Coffin

Postby dbr » Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:23 pm

I sympathize strongly with ClamRussel's pearl clutching, but Potatoe is right.

In terms of nails in the hockey experience coffin I'll just say I'd rather have my sensibilities offended by cheerleaders than by ads blared out at the crowd at every opportunity.

(I wonder if, one day, we'll be talking about how ruining the cheerleaders uniforms with advertisements truly is the last straw?)
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