Shane Doan

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Re: Shane Doan

Postby coco_canuck » Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:07 pm

Hockey Widow wrote:Doan will be in Kelowna I think at a golf tournament this weekend. I am sure he will get asked a lot of questions and I am sure he will speak to other players around the league and seek input. Keith Seabrook and he are apparently good friends, no he is not considering Chicago, but it may influence his decision on Vancouver. I was told tonight that the general perception around the league re Vancouver is that our window has passed us by and players are not looking at us to contend, or at least not as a favourite to contend anymore.

I was distressed when i heard this and I swear all I could think about was RD being right all along :D :D


Perceptions can quickly change, but you don't want to have a somewhat negative perception during free agency.

Whether the perception is reality or not depends on the health and productivity of the Twins and Kesler moving forward.

Other than that, I agree they have to continue to get "bigger, faster and younger," especially up front. We have good prospects like Kassian and Jensen that fit that bill, but we need more budding forwards with upside.
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Re: Shane Doan

Postby Blob Mckenzie » Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:13 pm

Dado wrote:


The sky is falling !!!!

The sky is falling!!!

Probably votes for the NDP too.
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Re: Shane Doan

Postby RoyalDude » Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:18 pm

coco_canuck wrote:but we need more budding forwards with upside.


slightly.

No offense to Jensen and Kassian but they are not tier 1 prospects, more like tier 2. Canucks have nothing in the way of tier 1 prospects in the system, i.e. future 1st line material or top 2 pairing material on defense.
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Re: Shane Doan

Postby RoyalDude » Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:20 pm

Blob Mckenzie wrote:
Dado wrote:


The sky is falling !!!!

The sky is falling!!!

Probably votes for the NDP too.


It's all you joe six pack, blue collar, rednecks in the Tri-cities that keep giving the NDP life.
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Re: Shane Doan

Postby coco_canuck » Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:34 pm

RoyalDude wrote:No offense to Jensen and Kassian but they are not tier 1 prospects, more like tier 2. Canucks have nothing in the way of tier 1 prospects in the system, i.e. future 1st line material or top 2 pairing material on defense.


Not sure I agree the Canucks are destined for doom, but you're right, in this quote at least.

None of the Canucks prospects currently project as "tier 1" players, but that can change with significant development by one or two of our prospects.

A lot of Gillis' draft picks have been project types, so it's going to take a little while to get a clearer picture, as noted by Corey Pronman of Hockey Prospectus:

Vancouver Canucks: Vancouver was one of the hardest systems to rank because they have quite a bit of talent in their ranks, but there's uncertainty on that talent. Alex Grenier, Frankie Corrado, Anton Rodin, and Joseph Labate are examples of players who could surprise


Pronman ranked the Canucks 24th in his organizational rankings, but there is lots of talent there.

http://www.hockeyprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1347

Having said that, the need for a top tier prospect is clear, and it's something I've been hoping can be addressed with the Luongo trade, one way or another.

Other than trading for that type of talent, the Canucks best bet is taking chances with lower picks and looking for advantages where they can find them.

Typically, it takes many years to get results for a drafting and development approach, and so far the jury is still out, but I wouldn't be so quick to assume all is lost.
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Re: Shane Doan

Postby Blaster86 » Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:54 pm

Hockey Widow wrote:
I was distressed when i heard this and I swear all I could think about was RD being right all along :D :D


Same things were said about the Mavericks in the NBA before they won it.

All it takes is getting hot at the right time. That said, we're almost through the window so if it doesn't happen next season or two then... well... 2021?

Good news is of the remaining free agents, other than Doan, who would we actually want?
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Re: Shane Doan

Postby mpp » Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:33 am

Hockey Widow wrote:Doan will be in Kelowna I think at a golf tournament this weekend. I am sure he will get asked a lot of questions and I am sure he will speak to other players around the league and seek input. Keith Seabrook and he are apparently good friends, no he is not considering Chicago, but it may influence his decision on Vancouver. I was told tonight that the general perception around the league re Vancouver is that our window has passed us by and players are not looking at us to contend, or at least not as a favourite to contend anymore.

I was distressed when i heard this and I swear all I could think about was RD being right all along :D :D


That's an important topic to dig and discuss.

Just checked SC champions since lockout. There is Pittsburgh, but it's a very special case. In general, there are teams led by youngsters, like Chicago, LA and Boston (by "led" I mean top scoring forwards + best defencemen). But it's not all - there is Anaheim led by Selanne, Niedermayer & Pronger, there is Carolina led by Whitney, Brind'Amour, Cole, Stillman (and of course Eric Staal, but he and Ward were an exception to otherwise aging team). Finally there is Detroit which seems to be GM MG's benchmark - with Lidstrom, Rafalski, Holmstrom, Samuelsson + two key forwards who weren't kids anymore either: Datsyuk (30 at that time) and Zetterberg (28).

It's not like you have to have kids to win - but of course it's more promising and gives you less headaches.
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Re: Shane Doan

Postby Meds » Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:43 am

Blaster86 wrote:Same things were said about the Mavericks in the NBA before they won it.

All it takes is getting hot at the right time. That said, we're almost through the window so if it doesn't happen next season or two then... well... 2021?


True that.

Just look back over the last hand full or so of playoffs.

2002: Carolina vs Detroit. The Hurricanes? They just turned it on come spring and were actually only 4 points better than the 8th seeded Habs. If they had played in any division other than the SE they probably would have missed completely.

2003: Anaheim vs Jersey. Anaheim? WTF! Giguere got hot and the rest of the team got hot and lucky.

2004: Calgary vs Tampa. The Flames got lucky and rode a hot goalie. They also worked their asses off.

2006: Edmonton vs Carolina. The Oilers were junk. Pure junk all year long and actually had fewer wins than the 9th and 10th place teams. Roloson found a horseshoe and the rest of the team did the same.

2007-2011: Good teams went all the way to the finals and were either skilled enough or stocked with goons and thugs. However in both 08 and 09 Pittsburgh ended up getting some very lucky goaltending from MAF at just the right moments.

2012: LA barely makes the playoffs and then goes on a roll. They didn't even get started on that roll until game one of the opening round. Before that they were barely staying in the hunt.....though they had made up some ground since Sutter took over. Quick stood on his head, the defense became even stronger and more cohesive, and low and behold the offense suddenly came to life. They have some serious talent on that team, but it sure didn't show up until April.

The playoffs aren't necessarily about which team is the "best". It's about which team gets the calls, the bounces, the horseshoes, and goes balls out. How many times have we seen games totally dominated by one team end in OT with a win for the other side? How many times do we see upsets? At least once or twice every spring because teams heat up and cool off.

If I looked at all the teams in the NHL and was dumb enough to think that the league was going to enforce fair officiating, then I would say that heading into 2012-13 the top 5 favorites, in no particular order, are......

1) Los Angeles
2) Pittsburgh
3) Vancouver
4) New York
5) St. Louis

But Winnipeg could play .550 hockey all year, go on a 7 or 8 game run in March, sneak in under the radar, and then ride Pavlec and some great team chemistry and fan support all the way to the big dance. Because that's hockey.
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Re: Shane Doan

Postby Lancer » Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:15 am

RoyalDude wrote:It's key for Gillis to re-stock the shelves of our 'futures' with the Luongo trade. I'd feel a lot better if Bjugstad was in our fold and something else like Howden but I may be dreaming there.


The more I think about that, the more I think that that will be where Gillis' intentions are WRT trading Luongo. I don't think we'll see any roster player anywhere near the calibre of Luongo coming back, but a couple of high-end prospects who are a year or two away from being roster players will be likely - though Gillis will have to add more than just Luongo to get them. Agree that it would be nice to see some heirs-apparent to the Sedins in terms of elite forwards coming up through the prospect pipeline.

Hockey Widow wrote:I was told tonight that the general perception around the league re Vancouver is that our window has passed us by and players are not looking at us to contend, or at least not as a favourite to contend anymore.


I think it all depends on who you ask around the league. Opinions are like assholes. Besides, if being in contention is the determining factor then who would sign here for less than market value? Garrison can't be that much of a homie that he would take less than market value just to play in Vancouver - especially when he sees what his peers were getting on the market.

Gillis has been pretty good at getting some quality players who are in their mid- to late-20s to sign here, but no 'stars' have signed because those berths are filled - by the Twins, Luongo and Kes. I don't think it's a matter of perception that Vancouver's not a contender anymore so much as it's a perception that it's a set team. This is the Sedins' team, and Luongo aside, I don't see Gillis changing that appreciably this summer. This is also a very thin UFA class, so it's a small sample size for anyone to say that that people aren't signing with Vancouver because of a perception that they're no longer contenders. If Vancouver's not a contender anymore, where is Detroit on the spectrum?
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Re: Shane Doan

Postby EPC » Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:47 am

Typical Canuck luck in a nutshell:

Doans decision comes down to two teams; the Vancouver Canucks and one other one. The teams are neck and neck for acquiring his services and Doan needs to find one reason to tip the scale in favour of one of the teams...

"Wait, the Canucks actually retired Naslund's number? ....what the... I mean, why?"

"I've been wearing #19 for sixteen years! Oh well, I'll get my agent to call Gillis and give him the bad news."
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Re: Shane Doan

Postby the Dogsalmon » Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:51 am

RoyalDude wrote:
Blob Mckenzie wrote:
Dado wrote:


The sky is falling !!!!

The sky is falling!!!

Probably votes for the NDP too.


It's all you joe six pack, blue collar, rednecks in the Tri-cities that keep giving the NDP life.



the NDP does not exist in the USA...Americans are not that stupid...
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Re: Shane Doan

Postby Boston Canucker » Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:52 am

It would be great to see Doan on the team, although Gillis would likely have to throw in at least a 3rd year. He'd be a great addition, especially once Kesler is back. Hopefully, we see a couple of the young guys make a decent effort at cracking the roster next year, and with Schneider as #1 and Garrison in the top 4, if you add Doan, the team will actually have a fairly refreshed look to it...should make for a fun year.
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Re: Shane Doan

Postby the Dogsalmon » Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:00 am

i'm happy starting the season with the manboy line of Kassian,Jensen and Gaunce...give it a whirl...dont expect miracles but give them 20 games...we need youngblood(not Rob Lowe or Patrick Swayze either)...
Last edited by the Dogsalmon on Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shane Doan

Postby herb » Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:12 am

RoyalDude wrote:Not really, HW. Has more to do with everyone being in total denial. Even Mike Gillis, not to long ago, has said that the window is closing quickly on this group, I mean hell...am I the only who realizes how old the Sedins are? When I last looked, professional sports is a young mans game. This is the first time in a while where we have no presence of the 'next coming'. We had a good run starting with the Bure/Linden era in which the Naslund/Bertuzzi era took over from them in which the Sedins took over from them. Ain't no star power taking over for the Sedins by the time they start to show their age, that is, unless you consider Kassian and Gaunce star material. I don't think so.


It's a catch 22 then isn't it?

If you go all in on the cup window only being open for another year or two and trade away prospects and picks for that player or two who could "put us over the top" and don't win it all, then you're really screwed in five years when the cupboards are bare.

If you play it safe and try to stockpile prospects and don't take the opportunity to pick up those extra veteran players who could put you over the edge, then maybe you're missing out on a golden opportunity.

Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

IMO there's no reason to think the Sedins will quickly fade away once they hit 35. They have been steady performers over the years, keep themselves in great shape and haven't had any major injury troubles. They are great talents that have never relied on physicality, strength, speed or skating. but have relied on smarts and slick hands. If they want to continue playing, what's to say they won't be productive players in their late 30's like Alfredsson, Brodeur, Lidstrom, Sakic, Sundin and even Sami freaking Salo?

I 100% agree that Gillis' main goal with the Luongo trade should be to get a guy like Bjugstad who is projected to be a first line centre. That should be the goal of the trade, not to pick up another 2nd or 3rd line vet like Versteeg. I think the way you hedge yourself is try to and develop some young players (Kassian, Jensen) who can begin to help carrying the load now and take over in 3 years as first line players when the Sedins are ready for 2nd line ice time. We need to get the pieces now that will help bridge the gap between the Sedins and the next era.

The missing big piece is obviously at centre. Hopefully Gillis can get it done.

Edit: I do like that the trend this off season has been to get a little bit younger. With Salo and hopefully Luongo gone this off season, the two oldest players from last year will be elsewhere.
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Re: Shane Doan

Postby Boston Canucker » Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:22 am

I don't put much stock in the whole notion of a cup window. Teams win Cups coming at it from various angles/approaches. You make sure you're as competitive as hell each year, grab that playoff spot, and take your shot. Clearly, 2010-11 was the year we should have done it, stars were aligned, one game short, still a torturous thought, but otherwise, the Sedins will be legit #1 liners for years still, if Kesler can get and stay healthy (i know, it's an if, but still forseeable) we've just made our goaltending and D younger, and we'll see what the young kids have. I'm not saying we will be the favorites next year - pending assets from RL deal, maybe - but we'll be in the top 5-7 mix. Cup window, whatever, load up your guns each year and fire away. I like the young guys they have coming up, time for 1 or 2 to break through, start making a diff...Kassian, Schroeder, I'm looking at you.
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