Home Construction Discussion

[Vpete]

RD- it's different in my world but if you are digging down- seal the exterior and then spray foam the interior. once this directional boring is done my walls will be spray foamed. I was in another older house in my neighborhood last night and my buddy had his basement spray foamed and it was so dry and quiet it was weird. All the homes around here are between 80-100 years old.

We've had a lot of rain and most basements here get a little damp and his had nothing like that. I can't wait.

As for electrical it was absolutely necessary to upgrade. 100 amps is nowhere near enough anymore with home theatre, appliances of all types and lamps etc. I want power to burn and I can run back a conduit to my garage when it is done next year and have another sub-panel there.

[RoyalDude]

RD- it's different in my world but if you are digging down- seal the exterior and then spray foam the interior. once this directional boring is done my walls will be spray foamed. I was in another older house in my neighborhood last night and my buddy had his basement spray foamed and it was so dry and quiet it was weird. All the homes around here are between 80-100 years old.

We've had a lot of rain and most basements here get a little damp and his had nothing like that. I can't wait.

As for electrical it was absolutely necessary to upgrade. 100 amps is nowhere near enough anymore with home theatre, appliances of all types and lamps etc. I want power to burn and I can run back a conduit to my garage when it is done next year and have another sub-panel there.

Hey VPete, like I said before, we don't have money to burn on this reno, spray foam is great sure, why not, but for 3 times as much as R-20 batt insulation? We got our estimates on both systems, it's a no brainer, I'm gonna fur out 2x4 exterior walls to 2x6 dimension and insulate the exterior walls like every new house built in Vancouver these days, with R-20 batt insulation. 2 lb or 1/2 lb spray foam is only used for certain applications here in new homes. It ain't the frozen tundra in Vancouver, moisture is our problem, in fact some building envelope engineers ain't to hip to 2lb spray foam in flat ceilings anymore where it is outdoor above like a deck due to the fact that if there is ever a leak you will never see water come through the 2 lb spray foam to the drywall ceiling exposing leak. It will just pool and fester on top of spray foam eventually causing mold and moisture and rotting joists and deck sheathing. It is too water tight. There is still a lot of argument here amongst the independent building envelope engineers regarding spray foam, a lot of different opinions regarding how to make a home breathe better, it's kind of funny really. I can't tell you how many different opinions I got on how to properly vent a crawl space on a recent reno I did recently. Even the building inspector pretty much said, "uh, not sure really, you can do it this way, or this way, that way or that way, not sure which one works better".

Anyhow spray foam has it's good points but I have seen the stuff cause some problems, ie creating condensation/moisture problems in spray foamed roofs around potlights in hand cut rafter roof systems, and this roof was well vented with purlins/sleepers. It ain't the end all be all, doesn't breath all that well I imagine. 2 lb spray foam is a little too airtight, watertight, expensive and is unnecessary or a bit overkill for exterior 2x6 exterior walls. You hardly see any new homes spray foam the entire 2x6 exterior walls above grade, it's costly and unecessary. It's mostly all R-20 batt insulation.

Hey, if you have the $5,000 you can lend me to upgrade our service, that would be nice. We are maxed out on our budget. Plus, it's not a problem to upgrade down the road when we have the money. It is something we plan on doing eventually, it can all be done from outside the house. We have had many discussions with this over my electrical contractor and electrical inspector, 'we have adequate service' at the momment to get us through'. We ain't the type of people who have major entertainment systems in every room of the house like the Blob Mackenzie clan up there in Heritage Mountain.

[BCExpat]

Just one thing to note about urethane foam in place or sprayed insulation - it is being banned in some countries now because it may be hazardous to your health. I work on a lot of commercial projects, and I have specified it for miscellaneous locations - ie - tie ins of air/vapour barriers to underside of slabs, around windows, doors, etc. I could see this being banned in Canada eventually (or the urethane will be reformulated to be less hazardous). My point is, stay away from it in your home. Otherwise, you may end up like those who use Urea Formaldehyde spray insulation in their houses (ripping it all out at great cost).

RD - as for venting and what needs to "breathe" the simple rule is, whatever is outside of the air/vapour barrier needs to be able to exude any moisture which enters the wall (including condensation). The air/vapour barrier has to be on the warm side of the dew point in the wall (usually on the inside face of the insulation).

The thing about the polyurethane foams, is that they can be both insulation and air/vapour barrier. So, RD, you are right, urethane insulation does not "breathe".

[Blob Mckenzie]

Which is why I use fibreglass.

I have tomorrow off and today I and the neighbour decided to crack open a 60 of rye.... CLOWN Royal.


You've been warned . I already pissed off the one non pot smoking neighbour I have by lighting a dube at 9 AM .

[Vpete]

RD I am doing basement walls and not wall cavities or attic, so we obviously have different issues going on.

Problem with spray foam is that there is no going back after. You are locked in and can't run bugger all in you walls after.

[BCExpat]

Which is why I use fibreglass.

I have tomorrow off and today I and the neighbour decided to crack open a 60 of rye.... CLOWN Royal.


You've been warned . I already pissed off the one non pot smoking neighbour I have by lighting a dube at 9 AM .

Another reason not to use urethane foam insulation - it catches fire easily and gives of toxic fumes (even more toxic than that BC bud you're smokin')

[Topper]

What is the opinion on Roxul insulation? Molten rock spin like cotton candy. Melts at 1500C, does not burn.

[BCExpat]

What is the opinion on Roxul insulation? Molten rock spin like cotton candy. Melts at 1500C, does not burn.

I really like Roxul. I specify the semi-rigid Roxul (Cavity Rock) on most of the commercial projects I work on. Many of the Architects I work with, have switched from the polystyrene insulation on exterior walls for commercial buildings, to the Roxul product. Unlike rigid polystyrene, the semi-rigid product is plyable and can fit around protrusions, etc., maintaining the thermal barrier. Extruded polystyrene has an R value of 5 per inch; semi-rigid Roxul has an R value of 4.3 per inch. So, to get the same R value, you need a bit more thickness. It is also cheaper than polystryene (the extruded type - not the expanded polystyrene).

I also specify the regular batt Roxul for between stud or framing member applications (Roxul Plus Batt or Roxul ComfortBatt).

[Arachnid]

RD I am doing basement walls and not wall cavities or attic, so we obviously have different issues going on.

Problem with spray foam is that there is no going back after. You are locked in and can't run bugger all in you walls after.

Rice hulls

r2/" spray in, moisture/pest/fire resistant, non-toxic, non-petrol, renewable source, readily available in the US

Fack'n amateurs

[Vpete]

Iirc Roxul is great for noise dampening.

Fire is of so little concern to me, my house is 82 years old, it'll go up like a dry piece of tinder.

[BladesofSteel]

Roxul is the preferable type of insulation whenever I use it. More expensive than fiberglass batts, but better R-value and yes, much better fire retardend (mind you, if the fire reaches you wall cavities, your house is toast anyway). If you're doing it yourself, be sure to wear gloves and long sleeves, as its the itchiest shit on the market. You also don't wanna be breathing that shit in either.

And yes, works great for dumbin' down the farts n shits in your bathroom walls.

[RoyalDude]

Just one thing to note about urethane foam in place or sprayed insulation - it is being banned in some countries now because it may be hazardous to your health. I work on a lot of commercial projects, and I have specified it for miscellaneous locations - ie - tie ins of air/vapour barriers to underside of slabs, around windows, doors, etc. I could see this being banned in Canada eventually (or the urethane will be reformulated to be less hazardous). My point is, stay away from it in your home. Otherwise, you may end up like those who use Urea Formaldehyde spray insulation in their houses (ripping it all out at great cost).

RD - as for venting and what needs to "breathe" the simple rule is, whatever is outside of the air/vapour barrier needs to be able to exude any moisture which enters the wall (including condensation). The air/vapour barrier has to be on the warm side of the dew point in the wall (usually on the inside face of the insulation).

The thing about the polyurethane foams, is that they can be both insulation and air/vapour barrier. So, RD, you are right, urethane insulation does not "breathe".

Nice read on the potential dangers of urethane foam. It's new territory for everybody, but you have to wonder about the off gases and it's affect on the people living in houses that went overboard on spray foam.

I know a fair bit about building envelope, air/vapour barrier, moisture, condensation rainscreen, dew points, warm side etc. How it all works Been dealing with Building Envelope Engineers for a while. Regarding venting, I was talking about a crawl space issue on a house I'm reno'ing where the existing crawl space is vented to the outside. The issue being that it's OK to do this but you have to shut these vents off for the winter in which 99.9% of the time, homeowners don't which lead to moisture problems in crawl spaces. I just find it quite amusing the different kinds of opinions you get for dealing with crawl spaces. Had one known local insulator who I have worked with in the past whom I consider pretty knowledgeable suggest I spray foam the underside of joists/floor in crawl space. All fine and dandy, but people seem to forget about the dirty word 'BUDGET'. It's an issue, the crawl space in existing has no concrete skim coat over ground, homeowner wants us to poly and skim coat over dirt, problem being, crawl space only has a depth of 2 feet.. But it's making more sense to turn the underside of floor into the building envelope and treating the rest of crawl space as 'outside'. Problem is, economics is playing a big part in all of this. Currently weighing the pros and cons.

[BladesofSteel]

^^^
Yes, the benefits of spray foaming are indeed terrific (as long as you run the necessary conduits through the walls/floor before hand) but it is sooo not cost effective at all.

[Vpete]

As you can see all spray foamed and so silent and dry in what is normally a musty basement. It was 3k for the job and I wouldn't change a thing.


So here are a few updates:



Looking into the utility room. Furnace guys came today to do some measurements and such for next week's install.



The future bathroom



This is looking down at the wall where the media centre will be. Put in the plywood behind for extra strength for the wall mount and a conduit to run cables. It's already pre-run with cable and cat 5 for media.



This is looking into the bedroom and you can see onto the floor the old lead pipe that had to be replaced. The electrical ground is tied in there but being moved and then onto the new line.



This is the guys doing the directional boring right before they brought the machine in.

[BladesofSteel]

Did you do 2x6 partitions as well??? What's the square footage of the basement Pete?