MG Post Season Comments

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Re: MG Post Season Comments

Postby Reefer2 » Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:55 pm

Over the past few years I have gained valuable insight into the whole waiting thing (thanks Pot (smile)), I think it was me thinking that Kesler and the Sedin's would never amount to anything and trade them. There was 2 parts of me talking, one was just win the freaking cup to end our years of torment and do anything to win it.

the 2nd was what I saw from the 80's 90's and early 2000 when the Canucks did a poor job of developing players. I firmly believe that today the Canucks are good at developing players and making them better once they have had a full season with the team including an off season with the trainers etc.

The only issue and the reason I do not like AV is that he does not seem to have a good track record with young players or guys he does not like. Since the Nucks had 1st place wrapped up since Feb/Mar when they traded for Kassian he should of received the proper minutes to see what he is made off. Not to throw him under the bus if he makes a mistake nor put him on a pedestal if he does well. Just give him sufficient ice time to see what he can do.

Same with Ballard, every mistake he makes he gets benched, same with Kassian and same with CH when he was here. Young players need some real ice time to get better and the Canucks had the luxury of having a good playoff spot wrapped up that they could of done a better job with their ice time.
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Re: MG Post Season Comments

Postby Topper » Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:04 pm

Ol Larry, that is real nice work by those fucking clowns. Thank them for me for telling me something in late April, after GMMG has spilled the beans, that they should have noted in January.

By watching the game, I was able to see the same thing in real time.

This only exemplifies how useless these fucktards are with their advanced stats, yet they are patting themselves on the back for their efforts.

Nice work asshats.

EDIT:
For shits and giggles I took a look back at what Drance & Co. of the Dunce Caps were saying just prior to the trade deadline. Had their use of advanced stats caught the charade Gillis was perpetrating?

Not a fucking chance.
http://canucksarmy.com/2012/2/27/the-argument-for-doing-nothing
The emergence of Cody Hodgson, gives the Canucks scoring punch out of the bottom-6, something they were lacking last season.


And then there is this gem suggesting he man the point on the 1st unit PP in the absence of Salo. LOL Can you imagine Cody back checking an ugly PP point turnover?

http://canucksarmy.com/2012/1/18/where-it-might-make-sense-to-increase-hodgsons-ice-time
When it comes to power-play ice-time, Hodgson is relied upon a fair bit. He's fourth among all Canucks forwards in total power-play ice-time, but when it's averaged out on a per-game basis he slides into 7th. Partly this is because Burrows' has spent some time playing the point, so he's squarely on the 2nd unit and based on overall power-play production is the fourth most important Canucks forward with the man-advantage. I don't mean to second guess Alain Vigneault who I believe to be a very competent, innovative head-coach, but if you were going to point out one phase of the game where perhaps Hodgson deserved to see the ice more, I think the power-play is the place to start.
.......
Despite Hodgson's power-play proficiency, when Sami Salo went down with a concussion, Vigneault elevated Alex Burrows - who has never been a power-play producer really - to the first unit. Burrows has manned the right point despite being a left-handed shooter, more well known for potting garbage goals than the velocity on his slap-shot. Hodgson on the other hand, is a right handed shooter whose clapper is so deadly doctors call it Gonorrhea.


Those advanced stats they follow sure had them drinking Gillis's Kool Aid instead of staying on top of what was actually occurring.

A buck short and four months late.
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Re: MG Post Season Comments

Postby Larry Goodenough » Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:52 am

Topper wrote:Ol Larry, that is real nice work by those fucking clowns. Thank them for me for telling me something in late April, after GMMG has spilled the beans, that they should have noted in January.

By watching the game, I was able to see the same thing in real time.

This only exemplifies how useless these fucktards are with their advanced stats, yet they are patting themselves on the back for their efforts.

Nice work asshats.

EDIT:
For shits and giggles I took a look back at what Drance & Co. of the Dunce Caps were saying just prior to the trade deadline. Had their use of advanced stats caught the charade Gillis was perpetrating?

Not a fucking chance.
http://canucksarmy.com/2012/2/27/the-argument-for-doing-nothing
The emergence of Cody Hodgson, gives the Canucks scoring punch out of the bottom-6, something they were lacking last season.


And then there is this gem suggesting he man the point on the 1st unit PP in the absence of Salo. LOL Can you imagine Cody back checking an ugly PP point turnover?

http://canucksarmy.com/2012/1/18/where-it-might-make-sense-to-increase-hodgsons-ice-time
When it comes to power-play ice-time, Hodgson is relied upon a fair bit. He's fourth among all Canucks forwards in total power-play ice-time, but when it's averaged out on a per-game basis he slides into 7th. Partly this is because Burrows' has spent some time playing the point, so he's squarely on the 2nd unit and based on overall power-play production is the fourth most important Canucks forward with the man-advantage. I don't mean to second guess Alain Vigneault who I believe to be a very competent, innovative head-coach, but if you were going to point out one phase of the game where perhaps Hodgson deserved to see the ice more, I think the power-play is the place to start.
.......
Despite Hodgson's power-play proficiency, when Sami Salo went down with a concussion, Vigneault elevated Alex Burrows - who has never been a power-play producer really - to the first unit. Burrows has manned the right point despite being a left-handed shooter, more well known for potting garbage goals than the velocity on his slap-shot. Hodgson on the other hand, is a right handed shooter whose clapper is so deadly doctors call it Gonorrhea.


Those advanced stats they follow sure had them drinking Gillis's Kool Aid instead of staying on top of what was actually occurring.

A buck short and four months late.


You should blog on bloggers.
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Re: MG Post Season Comments

Postby mathonwy » Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:28 pm

Island Nucklehead wrote:
mathonwy wrote:Someone told GMMG that Kassian was worth trading for "at the trade deadline as opposed to in the summer" because he could provide both short term and long term benefits to the Nucks for the rest of the season and the playoffs. Probably a scout.


Probably. And I'm glad they did. Because Hodgson would've been exposed in the playoffs, and exposed badly. This would hurt his trade value, and we wouldn't be able to get Kassian.

Someone also told GMMG that our center depth was fine and we would be ok with parting ways with our stumpy playmaker rookie. Probably AV.


Gillis could probably figure this out on his own when he lined up Pahlsson, who is a better third line player than Hodgson.

Speaking about this season only, we took a major hit when we got rid of Coho and acquired Kassian. We lost a lot of forward options and in the playoffs, he played 5:37 in game 1, 6:00 in game 2, 3:55 in game 3, 3:42 in game 4 and he was sat in game 5.


How much did Pahlsson play? Kassian didn't replace Hodgson, Pahlsson did.

The Kassassin was an organizational need addition, Pahlsson was the short-term positional fix.


A. Coho wouldn't have been "exposed" in the playoffs anymore than Kassian has already been.

B. We traded Coho for Kassian. Not for Pahlsson. TOI is TOI. What's wrong with acquiring Pahlsson and not trading Coho? Coho stays the 3rd line center, Pahlsson becomes the 4th line center, Lappy plays wing.

Kassian is a one dimensional player with a very limited skillset AT THIS POINT OF TIME. Coho obviously doesn't have the size that Kassian has but is better in every other aspect of the game at his current stage of development. I might even hazard a guess that he's faster than Kassian. Even though I really like Pahlsson's tough and gritty game, bringing both Kassian and Pahlsson over at the trade deadline made your Canucks slower. Slower on the break out game and slower on the transition game (cue RD's shutdown bray).

C. Don't you think organizational needs can be addressed in the summer? Why gamble on your future in the middle of a season? It doesn't make sense to me unless a) someone got fed up and pulled the trigger just because of whatever, or, b) the short term intel on Kassian was wrong.
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Re: MG Post Season Comments

Postby mathonwy » Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:41 pm

donlever wrote:
mathonwy wrote:
And this piss off must have happened pretty close to the deadline for it all to go down so fast (and with no shopping involved).



Why this?

Clearly GMMG said they spent time orchestrating a situation where he would be attractive on the market.

Maybe Kassian is exactly what GMMG wanted.

Zach is a neophyte and thinking otherwise now or at the time of the trade is/was just wrong, I am sorry to say.

He is, however, a top grade prospect along the lines of exactly what this team needs so GMMG could very well be playing dumb like a fox in this scenario.


So.. I'm just trying to understand your view point here.

What you're saying here is:

At the trade deadline, GMMG and co. saw the season as lost based on whatever and decided to dump Coho (because his camp was a pain in the ass) for a neophyte (beginner, novice) hockey player. A neophyte that is a lot greener than Coho, a lot less skilled than Coho and a lot less fitter than Coho BUT, is big, has a very good pedigree and fulfills an organizational need. GMMG and co. would use the rest of the season to train Kassian in anticipation for the 12/13 season.

This scenario is a bit too far-fetched for me to believe based on what happened last spring,us winning the PT this season and all of the expectations of your fan base for this year's playoffs.

But if that's what happened, that's what happened. I don't really see any evidence of ownership mailing in the season but I'm only privy to what the media tell us.
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Re: MG Post Season Comments

Postby mathonwy » Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:48 pm

dbr wrote:Sorry mathonwy I know you're a nice guy and all but demanding that someone be fired less than two months after a 22 year-old got dealt for a 21 year-old is ridiculous. We're not talking about Patrick White here, Kassian has a similar pedigree to Hodgson and fills a real need on the team.

:)

Thanks for saying I'm a nice guy. Just for the record, I think you're a pretty swell guy too. That donnie guy is a bit of a prick though. :mrgreen:

Ok, firing is a strong word and I retract it. Reprimanded strongly might be a better word. I am still of the opinion that the decision to trade Coho has both tactical and strategic components. Strategic, I have no problems. Tactically, based on what I saw from Kassian and how he was used by AV since he got here, I have major problems.
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Re: MG Post Season Comments

Postby dbr » Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:26 pm

I'm not really sure on what the difference is between tactics and strategy in this scenario.

In any event, I personally didn't see much of a problem with the way Kassian was used by Alain Vigneault this season - it seemed mostly appropriate given the point this kid is at in his career, and I don't think either he or the team would have benefitted from a "we gave up our top young player for this guy, might as well double-shift him while we are down a goal in a playoff game" type of approach.

I suppose you could have a problem with the fact that Mike Gillis traded a player for a less productive player in a season where the team should've been "going for it" - fair enough, but given the fact that Gillis is privy to so much more information than we are (for example the fact that Ryan Kesler has been nursing an injury, the fact that Hodgson's productive streak was the result of a planned deployment by the team) you sort of just have to accept that they are making the best decision they can with the information they have (and we don't). Maybe they aren't but to me Mike Gillis' track record is still pretty good despite some missteps in the past year.

Perhaps the Canucks could've gone three and three quarter more rounds than they did with Cody Hodgson rather than Zack Kassian. I strongly doubt it, barring a Conn Smythe performance from Hodgson - which even his most ardent supporters would acknowledge is extraordinarily unlikely.
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Re: MG Post Season Comments

Postby Arachnid » Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:49 pm

I can't believe people are still dreaming or even contemplating Cody Hodgson would have helped us in the playoffs this year. I watched him in Buffalo after she was traded and with more minutes on a young talented second line he shit the bed....he looked a little lost until the last couple of games and a little :shock: Gased....stop with this fantasy that we missed him....he was a head case I have never in all this debate heard a Canuck teammate stand up for him and call them their best buddy, they miss him or he's a great roommate/locker room guy.

He may develop his Jr. leadership abilities, he may not but he did not or would not have had them this past month.
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Re: MG Post Season Comments

Postby Mantle » Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:58 pm

I think you have to consider the organizational needs of the sabres as well when considering the timing of this deal and not waiting until the off season. At the time weren't they fighting for a playoff spot? Maybe they felt that Cody could be a difference maker for them late in the season and Kassian couldn't be. If that was the case, maybe they aren't willing to deal for Cody in the summer when they have more options.
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Re: MG Post Season Comments

Postby mathonwy » Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:01 pm

- The tactical is the here and now which is the time period of hockey between the trade deadline to end of the playoffs.

- The point I'm discussing is trading Coho at the deadline versus trading Coho in the summer.

- The question I have is, what would have been the harm in NOT trading Coho at the trade deadline? Would we have lost the opportunity to not trade for Kassian? Well.. considering how green Kassian is right now and considering Buffalo didn't make the playoffs, I would say no, we would not have lost the opportunity. If we still had Coho, I postulate that Buffalo would still make that trade right now.

- Sorry. I have no problems with how AV used Kassian as I believe he used him as best as he could. That was a mistype.

- The point is not about whether Coho would have been the magic bullet for us to win a cup. The point is, he would have been a lot more productive than what we saw from Kassian. He gives AV a lot more options to work with.

- One last fun question. Do you think Buffalo would do a reverse trade right now? Based on what I've seen on Buffalo forums, I would say the answer is no.
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Re: MG Post Season Comments

Postby mathonwy » Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:04 pm

Mantle wrote:I think you have to consider the organizational needs of the sabres as well when considering the timing of this deal and not waiting until the off season. At the time weren't they fighting for a playoff spot? Maybe they felt that Cody could be a difference maker for them late in the season and Kassian couldn't be. If that was the case, maybe they aren't willing to deal for Cody in the summer when they have more options.

See..

This also works in the Canucks favour because we would also have more options instead of a top 6 list.

And as GMMG didn't shop Coho, who knows what the true market value of Coho is.
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Re: MG Post Season Comments

Postby dbr » Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:19 pm

mathonwy wrote:- The question I have is, what would have been the harm in NOT trading Coho at the trade deadline? Would we have lost the opportunity to not trade for Kassian? Well.. considering how green Kassian is right now and considering Buffalo didn't make the playoffs, I would say no, we would not have lost the opportunity. If we still had Coho, I postulate that Buffalo would still make that trade right now.


Well unless Mike Gillis is telling spiteful lies to the media (a possibility, although IMO a remote one since the numbers appear to back up his story) the Canucks changed the way they deployed Cody Hodgson - and part and parcel with that is the way they deployed other Canuck forwards - in order to emphasize his offensive abilities.

This would mean that the Canucks knew that they were at the end of the line with Hodgson by January (when they started giving him more offensive zone starts) at the latest.

It would also mean that if they had declined to deal Hodgson at the deadline, that they would have to either have returned him to his normal deployment (when he scored at about a 20-30 point pace if I remember correctly) or would have had to spend the remainder of the season continuing to organize their lineup around making Cody Hodgson look like a productive offensive player on a top team.

The former would potentially undermind Hodgson's trade value (meaning that no you can't simply wait to make a deal) and the latter would have been done at the expense of the team's best interests.. hardly "win now" behaviour.

- One last fun question. Do you think Buffalo would do a reverse trade right now? Based on what I've seen on Buffalo forums, I would say the answer is no.


They almost certainly wouldn't given the performances of Foligno and the flashes Hodgson showed of offensive potential given more responsibility and more minutes.

That being said if Kassian was still a Sabre and Hodgson was still a Canuck, and he'd ended the season the same place he did last season (the team's fourth or fifth best centre, minimal offensive production) then the Canucks would probably be selling much lower on him than they did at the deadline.
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Re: MG Post Season Comments

Postby dbr » Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:22 pm

mathonwy wrote:And as GMMG didn't shop Coho, who knows what the true market value of Coho is.


That is not true strictly speaking, Gillis identified the players he wanted to acquire and went out and got one of them in exchange for Hodgson. Presumably he talked to the several teams that had something he wanted along the way.

It's true that if he'd called the other 29 GMs and simply accepted the return with the most "value" then he might have gotten more.. "value".. than he did, but if that "value" doesn't meet a need for the Canucks what's the point?
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Re: MG Post Season Comments

Postby Strangelove » Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:28 pm

mathonwy wrote:
dbr wrote:Sorry mathonwy I know you're a nice guy and all but demanding that someone be fired less than two months after a 22 year-old got dealt for a 21 year-old is ridiculous. We're not talking about Patrick White here, Kassian has a similar pedigree to Hodgson and fills a real need on the team.

:)

Thanks for saying I'm a nice guy. Just for the record, I think you're a pretty swell guy too. That donnie guy is a bit of a prick though. :mrgreen:


Don't feel bad guys, Donny was a nice guy too for the first few years.

Under my tutelage ANYONE can become a prick. :mex:

Mat, I see where you're coming from with the Hods-for-help-NOW perspective. As a matter of fact I believe I posted the same thing when the trade news first broke. The time for a Cup is NOW and I'm worried GMMG is a lets-stay-good-forever GM rather than a lets-go-for-broke GM (like Clarkie with whom we would've won a Cup fo sho by now but that's for another thread). Gillis' post-season comments about "getting younger" make me worry even more....

Having said that I predict GMMG wins this trade long-term.
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Re: MG Post Season Comments

Postby Mantle » Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:53 pm

mathonwy wrote:
Mantle wrote:I think you have to consider the organizational needs of the sabres as well when considering the timing of this deal and not waiting until the off season. At the time weren't they fighting for a playoff spot? Maybe they felt that Cody could be a difference maker for them late in the season and Kassian couldn't be. If that was the case, maybe they aren't willing to deal for Cody in the summer when they have more options.

See..

This also works in the Canucks favour because we would also have more options instead of a top 6 list.

And as GMMG didn't shop Coho, who knows what the true market value of Coho is.


But if Cody was being protected and pumped in order to increase his value, there is no need to wait if one of your 6 is available and a deal can be closed. Delaying until the offseason would only tie MGs hands to keep pumping and protecting Cody until the end of the year, and for what end? Only to possibly trade him for one of the 6 then? I don't see the benefit of waiting when the deal could be closed immediately.
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