Blue Jackets @ Canucks - Mar 17 - 7:00PM PST - CBC

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Re: Blue Jackets @ Canucks - Mar 17 - 7:00PM PST - CBC

Postby RoyalDude » Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:55 pm

Island Nucklehead wrote:
Malhotra has a niche. He also has a NTC and a contract past this season. Raymond does not. He's fast and... yeah, he's fast.


Why do you bring up contracts? I could give two shits, I'm talking about performance from our two 2.5 millionaires and how they have both struggled this year yet Raymond seems to be the one most scrutinized/criticized. I don't get the love fest for Stone Hands and apparent Shut Down Specialist Manny Malhotra? FACE OFF SPECIALIST! YEEHAW! Is it because he is married to Steve Nash's sister? What is it? I don't get it. Can someone please let me in on the secret?
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Re: Blue Jackets @ Canucks - Mar 17 - 7:00PM PST - CBC

Postby Lancer » Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:17 pm

Thanks to the flu, I only saw this game on PVR. This game didn't seem as close as the pro scribes would put it, but the Canucks didn't seem to be firing on all cylinders yet.

I liked half the Sedin shifts - even with May Ray on the line. It seems like they're getting their game on track again, but they have to get Burr back on the line Add me to the line of folks ready to throw Raymond in front of a bus before the game in Minny. The guy just has lost his mojo big time and I don't think it will come in time for the playoffs. He's good at tracking down pucks and players, but after that the puck turns to coal on his stick and his skates turn to butter.

Really liked Edler's goal. I went from "(smirk) well this oughta be interesting" to "WTF" to "OMFG" to "I can't believe that!" in seconds. I loved how Derek Dorsett was going "WTF? Somebody take this guy for Chrissakes!" even before Edler hit the circles. You will not see that again this season... but I hope I'm wrong.

Couldn't believe it was Tanev who served up that beauty give-away to Russel in the 3rd. The kid has been playing phenomenally lately. I had to rewind to see if that wasn't Rome.

Schneider played good, but not great. Made some good saves, but while he can't be faulted on the two last goals they were stoppable.

As for Gassed-'Alex Stojanov'-Kickassian, I'm ready to throw in the towel on the kid for the season. Whatever he gives the team over the season beyond hitting and fighting on the 4th line will be pure gravy. It's clear that fitness-wise he just doesn't measure up (and pretty clear that either Buffalo isn't as hitched on prospect fitness or there's a reason they gave up on the kid for Hodgson) and you can't expect him to make up the difference over 11 games and playoffs. He'll provide what he can with 10+ minutes, and that's it. Give him an off-season to catch up, and see how he fares in training camp before pumping him as the next Lucic or digging his grave as the next Stojanov. I'd love to be pleasantly surprised.

On the flip-side, no points and -5 for Cody in 10 games. Love the kid and think he will eventually do well, but yeesh it's to make one wonder who was helping who when he was here.
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Re: Blue Jackets @ Canucks - Mar 17 - 7:00PM PST - CBC

Postby Island Nucklehead » Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:22 pm

RoyalDude wrote:
Island Nucklehead wrote:
Malhotra has a niche. He also has a NTC and a contract past this season. Raymond does not. He's fast and... yeah, he's fast.


Why do you bring up contracts? I could give two shits, I'm talking about performance from our two 2.5 millionaires and how they have both struggled this year yet Raymond seems to be the one most scrutinized/criticized. I don't get the love fest for Stone Hands and apparent Shut Down Specialist Manny Malhotra? FACE OFF SPECIALIST! YEEHAW! Is it because he is married to Steve Nash's sister? What is it? I don't get it. Can someone please let me in on the secret?


I bring up contracts because it's apparent (according to HW) the Canucks have tried to get rid of Raymond, and will probably do so in the offseason. The Canucks are watching the same game we are and see the same things we do, and tried to make a change. Malhotra isn't easy to get rid of. Everyone knows neither is playing up to potential. Fortunately Malhotra can still do what he always did, win draws. He's the best draw player on the team, and 5th in the league.

Raymond can't do what he once did, put up points.

RoyalDude wrote:
Island Nucklehead wrote:I think most agree if Kassian hit Lucic-potential it'd be a home run, I don't think anyone fully expects him to. Yet Kassian has a slightly better goals/game ratio than Lucic did in his rookie year, while playing less minutes.


That home-run will never happen Nucklehead, so lower your expectations or you will be seriously disappointed. By the looks of it, Gassedian has a terrible VO2 Max rating. Kind of wished we snagged that Foligno kid instead with the way he has played since his call-up to the Sabres. I think Regier(Sp?) knew something that we didn't.


Again :
Island Nucklehead wrote:I think most agree if Kassian hit Lucic-potential it'd be a home run, I don't think anyone fully expects him to.
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Re: Blue Jackets @ Canucks - Mar 17 - 7:00PM PST - CBC

Postby Larry Goodenough » Sun Mar 18, 2012 8:01 pm

Island Nucklehead wrote:I bring up contracts because it's apparent (according to HW) the Canucks have tried to get rid of Raymond, and will probably do so in the offseason. The Canucks are watching the same game we are and see the same things we do, and tried to make a change. Malhotra isn't easy to get rid of. Everyone knows neither is playing up to potential. Fortunately Malhotra can still do what he always did, win draws. He's the best draw player on the team, and 5th in the league.

Raymond can't do what he once did, put up points.




Can I ask what you think Malhotra should be doing to meet his potential this year?
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Re: Blue Jackets @ Canucks - Mar 17 - 7:00PM PST - CBC

Postby RoyalDude » Sun Mar 18, 2012 8:19 pm

Larry Goodenough wrote:
Island Nucklehead wrote:I bring up contracts because it's apparent (according to HW) the Canucks have tried to get rid of Raymond, and will probably do so in the offseason. The Canucks are watching the same game we are and see the same things we do, and tried to make a change. Malhotra isn't easy to get rid of. Everyone knows neither is playing up to potential. Fortunately Malhotra can still do what he always did, win draws. He's the best draw player on the team, and 5th in the league.

Raymond can't do what he once did, put up points.




Can I ask what you think Malhotra should be doing to meet his potential this year?


Winning face-offs I guess, who cares about anything else. I'd love those kinds of expectations in my job. Take my face-off and do nothing the entire shift.
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Re: Blue Jackets @ Canucks - Mar 17 - 7:00PM PST - CBC

Postby Blob Mckenzie » Sun Mar 18, 2012 8:45 pm

Larry Goodenough wrote:Can I ask what you think Malhotra should be doing to meet his potential this year?


Manny is done....other than winning faceoffs in the defensive zone he is taking up space. That said, those draws and his defensive work do have some value. Is he worth 2.5 million ?? Probably not but maybe this summer he can be bought out or dealt and the Canucks can free up that cap space or a portion of it.

I have to give MG credit in re-signing Higgins and aquiring Booth though. They have really shored up the wing postions in the top 6 because there is no way in hell Raymond is a top 6 player except on a crappy team like the Jackets or maybe the Oilers.

If MG can divest himself of Raymond, Manny and Ballard he will have a lot of cap space moving forward. Three pretty useless pieces eating up over 9 million in cap room.
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Re: Blue Jackets @ Canucks - Mar 17 - 7:00PM PST - CBC

Postby Island Nucklehead » Sun Mar 18, 2012 8:59 pm

Larry Goodenough wrote:
Island Nucklehead wrote:I bring up contracts because it's apparent (according to HW) the Canucks have tried to get rid of Raymond, and will probably do so in the offseason. The Canucks are watching the same game we are and see the same things we do, and tried to make a change. Malhotra isn't easy to get rid of. Everyone knows neither is playing up to potential. Fortunately Malhotra can still do what he always did, win draws. He's the best draw player on the team, and 5th in the league.

Raymond can't do what he once did, put up points.




Can I ask what you think Malhotra should be doing to meet his potential this year?


I honestly don't know what his potential is. He used to be a 30-35 point guy and now he's about a 20 point guy. They've never really said how much he can see. He was already offensively limited before his injury, so I certainly wasn't expecting much once he crosses the red line.

Raymond has proven he still has speed in spades after his injury, and was playing poorly before he got hurt. He potted 25g/50pt two years ago and is now running at about 14g/29pt over an 82 game season. I'm sure a lot of fans feel that Manny gets a pass because it was such a serious injury that clearly affected how he can play the sport. There's no doubt that Raymond also suffered a serious injury, but from what I've seen and read, it's not a permanent disability. That might be why Malhotra isn't getting the same treatment as Raymond.

RoyalDude wrote:
Winning face-offs I guess, who cares about anything else. I'd love those kinds of expectations in my job. Take my face-off and do nothing the entire shift.


Again. If you're going to quote me at least read the fucking post. I already said Malhotra isn't living up to expectation. But his role was never to provide a lot offense, and he CAN be effective in a bottom-6 role. And given that your eyesight is obviously worse than Manny's, I doubt you'd have the ability to win a beer league faceoff.
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Re: Blue Jackets @ Canucks - Mar 17 - 7:00PM PST - CBC

Postby wienerdog » Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:19 pm

Also the biggest difference between Raymond and Manny is the freaking NTC on his contract.
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Re: Blue Jackets @ Canucks - Mar 17 - 7:00PM PST - CBC

Postby Brick Tamland » Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:01 am

Hi All,

First post, been lurking for a while now though. I find interesting this quote from AV taken from McIntyre's article this morning about Manny interesting.

"I think it's pretty clear ... you know, before Manny's eye injury he would have been, in my mind any-way, one of the nominees for the Sel-ke," Vigneault said [Malhotra got six of 125 first-place votes and finished fifth]. "He was right up there, that's how well he was playing against all the top lines.

"Unfortunately, since that injury he's not the same physical player he was before.


http://www.theprovince.com/sports/Canucks+Malhotra+shadow+injury+self/6323362/story.html#ixzz1pZg9WxEv

So I'm no expert, and maybe a few Dr types can add an opinion, but it seems to me that the perception among Canucks management is that it's his physical game that's dropped off the most. I'm wondering why? How bad does an eye injury have to be, to have that much of an impact on a physical game. I can see it having a big impact on scoring, but you have to wonder how bad it really is.
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Re: Blue Jackets @ Canucks - Mar 17 - 7:00PM PST - CBC

Postby Per » Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:16 am

Brick Tamland wrote:Hi All,

First post, been lurking for a while now though. I find interesting this quote from AV taken from McIntyre's article this morning about Manny interesting.

"I think it's pretty clear ... you know, before Manny's eye injury he would have been, in my mind any-way, one of the nominees for the Sel-ke," Vigneault said [Malhotra got six of 125 first-place votes and finished fifth]. "He was right up there, that's how well he was playing against all the top lines.

"Unfortunately, since that injury he's not the same physical player he was before.


http://www.theprovince.com/sports/Canucks+Malhotra+shadow+injury+self/6323362/story.html#ixzz1pZg9WxEv

So I'm no expert, and maybe a few Dr types can add an opinion, but it seems to me that the perception among Canucks management is that it's his physical game that's dropped off the most. I'm wondering why? How bad does an eye injury have to be, to have that much of an impact on a physical game. I can see it having a big impact on scoring, but you have to wonder how bad it really is.

Any major injury can have a psychological impact on your physicality, in that you become more aware of your mortality, so to say. A young player that hasn't had any devastating injuries may be going in with no worries. A player that has had a major injury may hestitate, and thus not make that hit as fast or hard.
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Re: Blue Jackets @ Canucks - Mar 17 - 7:00PM PST - CBC

Postby wafflecombine » Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:28 am

Hockey Widow wrote:I'm far from writing Gassian off. I am still in shock somewhat over how he just plain runs out of gas. I guess I expected he would at least be in good shape, no I expected great shape. He comes to the team like a lot of players do, unprepared for what the Canucks expect in terms of conditioning from themselves and each other.

I'm not knocking his heart out there but I do think he has a lot to learn about what it takes to stick with a team like the Canucks. I hope this is not why the Sabres felt he was expendable and that in the off season he will get his Canucks plan and come to camp next year in the shape of his life.

But back to this year, he just plain runs out of gas and to me looks lost away from the puck, which is most shifts and most of the shift. He is most definitely a work in progress and as it stands I cannot see him getting serious minutes during the playoffs.

I also don't see MAG getting serious minutes during the playoffs, especially if Ballard is ready and I think he will be.


Kassian does look like he isn't quite up to our conditioning requirements. Hopefully this will improve going into the playoffs but conditioning is something that can be trained into a player. I bet this summer he gets bag-ridden by the conditioning coaches for the Nucks, drops 15 lbs and is a monster next year.

I tend to agree on your Ballard theory with the one proviso being his relationship with AV. Its hard to say how that'll go. Assuming things go well and Ballard comes back... we have Alberts, MAG, Rome and Tanev to fill that 6th spot. Who meshes best with Ballard? My gut says Rome or Tanev. MAG plays style is similar to Ballard and Alberts is a "?" for me.
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Re: Blue Jackets @ Canucks - Mar 17 - 7:00PM PST - CBC

Postby Larry Goodenough » Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:32 am

Island Nucklehead wrote:
Larry Goodenough wrote:
Island Nucklehead wrote:I bring up contracts because it's apparent (according to HW) the Canucks have tried to get rid of Raymond, and will probably do so in the offseason. The Canucks are watching the same game we are and see the same things we do, and tried to make a change. Malhotra isn't easy to get rid of. Everyone knows neither is playing up to potential. Fortunately Malhotra can still do what he always did, win draws. He's the best draw player on the team, and 5th in the league.

Raymond can't do what he once did, put up points.




Can I ask what you think Malhotra should be doing to meet his potential this year?


I honestly don't know what his potential is. He used to be a 30-35 point guy and now he's about a 20 point guy. They've never really said how much he can see. He was already offensively limited before his injury, so I certainly wasn't expecting much once he crosses the red line.

Raymond has proven he still has speed in spades after his injury, and was playing poorly before he got hurt. He potted 25g/50pt two years ago and is now running at about 14g/29pt over an 82 game season. I'm sure a lot of fans feel that Manny gets a pass because it was such a serious injury that clearly affected how he can play the sport. There's no doubt that Raymond also suffered a serious injury, but from what I've seen and read, it's not a permanent disability. That might be why Malhotra isn't getting the same treatment as Raymond.


Malhotra is being deployed much differently this year than any seasons past. Perhaps it's because of this eye injury.

He's taking almost 90% of his faceoffs in the defensive end. Most opponents also send out one of their top 2 lines for faceoffs in Vancouver's end. Malhotra's average shift time is also extremely low.

Therefore, he's being told to go out there and take defensive zone draws only, against the top players on the other team, get the puck out of the zone and get off the ice. This might be the most extreme defensive deployment of a centre in hockey history.

So, to judge a player on his points production when he's been told to not even think about scoring this season, seems futile and/or unfair. To say he's not the same player is an understatement. The question is, is he not the same player because he has changed his game to suit his new extreme role or is his injury the reason.

I don't know if he's meeting his potential either, as there has never been another player who has taken on this type of role before, so there is no comparable. But we do have to understand the context of his usage before evaluating him.

As for Raymond, he's another player who had no off season to lift weights or gain muscle mass. That might be showing right now. I would not be so quick to judge a slight player who appears to really need off seasons to keep his modest size up. He is lost in the offensive zone, but remains strong in the other zones.

As for their salaries, I thought the reason guys like the Sedins and Kesler took less money was so that more money was available to slightly overpay for the other guys?
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Re: Blue Jackets @ Canucks - Mar 17 - 7:00PM PST - CBC

Postby Orcasfan » Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:15 am

A couple of points:

1. As far as the game with Columbus went...actually, I was very impressed with how the BJ's played. Based on that game, and if they would have played more up to that level throughout the season, I doubt they would be anywhere near the bottom. So, kudos to that team - they never gave up.

2. Malhotra is being used differently. He's the ultimate specialist now. But how much of the way AV is now using him is due to his deficient play elsewhere? I think his consistency (which was one of his trademarks) has been way off this year. And, yes, certainly much of that is due to his eye injury (remember Ohlund's return after his eye injury?). Even in the defensive zone, he has been inconsistent, especially with clearing and board work. Hopefully, as his eye progresses, his confidence will return.

3. Kassian is in lousy shape! And, I'm sure the Canucks were aware of that prior to the trade, so no surprise. But they will certainly expect a tough off-season of conditioning for this guy! In the meantime, I doubt that they have any big expectations for him for the remainder of the season. He is a prospect, and they're looking to the future.
The same can be said of Mags, but I expect he will be used during the playoffs (given the usual attrition!). Again, a prospect with lots of promise.

4. I agree that Raymond will probably be traded this summer.
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Re: Blue Jackets @ Canucks - Mar 17 - 7:00PM PST - CBC

Postby tantalum » Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:12 am

Orcasfan wrote:1. As far as the game with Columbus went...actually, I was very impressed with how the BJ's played. Based on that game, and if they would have played more up to that level throughout the season, I doubt they would be anywhere near the bottom. So, kudos to that team - they never gave up.


They did OK and capitalized on a couple of faceoff wins and defensive breakdowns. Still for the canucks most of these chances against are occurring because of lazy play from the blueliners. The forwards are rounding into form a bit but the blueline (especialy Bieksa, Edler and Rome) has been brutal

3. Kassian is in lousy shape! And, I'm sure the Canucks were aware of that prior to the trade, so no surprise. But they will certainly expect a tough off-season of conditioning for this guy! In the meantime, I doubt that they have any big expectations for him for the remainder of the season. He is a prospect, and they're looking to the future.
The same can be said of Mags, but I expect he will be used during the playoffs (given the usual attrition!). Again, a prospect with lots of promise.


He's not up to the level needed to play for the canucks to be sure. This is a team that skates hard for 30-45 seconds not like most teams who have guys skating hard for half a shift. He isn't at that level. But most first year players are not.

4. I agree that Raymond will probably be traded this summer.


He will be a healthy scratch tonight as Malhotra draws back in.
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