A day that will live in infamy

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A day that will live in infamy

Postby Per » Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:23 am

I hear that Canada, as the first nation, has decided to withdraw from the Kyoto agreement.
That is a disgrace.

The problem with Kyoto is that it is too little too late.

To make even less is morally repugnant.

A sad day indeed, when Canada, a nation known for its commitment to doing good, decides to do nothing.
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Re: A day that will live in infamy

Postby Puck » Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:14 am

Mr. Harper is unlikely to do anything contrary to US policy. Besides, he's too busy building jails to think about the planet.
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Re: A day that will live in infamy

Postby Potatoe1 » Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:46 am

Per wrote:I hear that Canada, as the first nation, has decided to withdraw from the Kyoto agreement.
That is a disgrace.

The problem with Kyoto is that it is too little too late.

To make even less is morally repugnant.

A sad day indeed, when Canada, a nation known for its commitment to doing good, decides to do nothing.



Unfortunately it makes little sense to give up Oil production in the tar sands.

Kind of embarrassing for us but totally understandable.
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Re: A day that will live in infamy

Postby herb » Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:14 pm

Meh, Kyoto, like Durban, was full of empty promises that most didn't really intend on achieving.

Kyoto is basically dead, and Canada is the first country to formally admit it. Japan and Russia are going to formally leave Kyoto when it expires in 2012. That will leave only Europe. The world's biggest polluters never signed. China and India are not interested in reducing emissions. They're only interested in receiving more climate cash to develop their fledgling green industries.

While people want to huff and puff about the oil sands, China has been building coal fired power plants left right and centre, but nobody can be bothered to take on big bad China. Those plants don't employ the latest in scrubber technologies.

The bottom line is that countries cannot afford Europe's expensive carbon market or expensive "green" energy and most citizens really aren't that interested. If they were, we'd be talking about Prime Minister Stephane Dion.

We'll see if Europe's cap and trade program survives, or if it becomes another proverbial anchor around the continent's neck.
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Re: A day that will live in infamy

Postby Per » Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:08 pm

It's not just cap and trade, it's also switching to smarter energy solutions.

Sweden's emissions were so low in 1990 that the Kyoto protocol would actually allow a slight increase, but instead we have reduced another 20% while enjoying Europe's highest GDP growth over the past few years. District heating, using excess heat from local industries or burnng biomass, is today the most common heat source in Swedish homes. Only 2% of Swedish homes are still heated with oil and coal is virtually unknown. Not only does this help cut emissions, it also means we have reduced our dependency on oil imports.

And as you can see in this chart a great many nations have reached and even exceded the targets. Even Russia.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4b/Kyoto_Parties_with_first_period_%282008-2012%29_greenhouse_gas_emissions_limitations_targets_and_the_percentage_change_in_their_carbon_dioxide_emissions_from_fuel_combustion_between_1990_and_2009.png


I've just signed a contract allowing an energy company to explore the possibilities to build a wind power plant on my land (I own some forest up north). It's still only in the early stages, but I have great hopes!

Oil? That is so 1980! :roll:
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Re: A day that will live in infamy

Postby Potatoe1 » Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:30 pm

Per wrote:
Oil? That is so 1980! :roll:


That may be true Per, but the Oil is a huge part of the Alberta Economy and a key factor in keeping Canada out of the recession.

If you take out the Oil sands Canada was basically on tack with it's environmental commitments.
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Re: A day that will live in infamy

Postby herb » Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:43 pm

Per, it has been a looooong time since I looked at any of this stuff, but I wonder how many countries have favourable looking ghg emissions due simply to economic circumstances? Manufacturing and heavy industry has fled Europe, which is becoming more and more a service based economy. I now this is not negligible. I recall that Russia had a significant drop in emissions due totally to economic conditions and loss of industry.

Good for Sweden for doing so well, but let's not forget that they are lucky, like BC and Quebec, to have the ability to relatively easily produce hydroelectric power. Let's also not forget that Sweden produces a lot of nuclear power, which has a debateable level of environmental friendliness (ask Japan). :lol: Uranium, like fossil fuels, will run out one day.
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Re: A day that will live in infamy

Postby Arachnid » Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:49 pm

herb wrote:Per, it has been a looooong time since I looked at any of this stuff, but I wonder how many countries have favourable looking ghg emissions due simply to economic circumstances? Manufacturing and heavy industry has fled Europe, which is becoming more and more a service based economy. I now this is not negligible. I recall that Russia had a significant drop in emissions due totally to economic conditions and loss of industry.

Good for Sweden for doing so well, but let's not forget that they are lucky, like BC and Quebec, to have the ability to relatively easily produce hydroelectric power. Let's also not forget that Sweden produces a lot of nuclear power, which has a debateable level of environmental friendliness (ask Japan). :lol: Uranium, like fossil fuels, will run out one day.


Actually that is not true at all, Europe is just changed their manufacturing to be more sustainable. They also plan to manufacture energy from every building and other renewables.

What Canada has done has drawn the line in the sand. Those with and without fossil fuel resources. Thank the Gods that provincially and municipally there are local plans for sustainability.
Last edited by Arachnid on Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A day that will live in infamy

Postby Strangelove » Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:11 pm

Personally I always thought the Kyoto Accord was some kind of commie plot.

I like global warming! :thumbs:
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Re: A day that will live in infamy

Postby Arachnid » Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:32 am

Strangelove wrote:
I love Armageddon! :thumbs:


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Re: A day that will live in infamy

Postby ukcanuck » Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:20 am

I like that line from George dubbya Bush not really liking Japanese cars when asked about the Kyoto Accord
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Re: A day that will live in infamy

Postby Cornuck » Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:20 am

Strangelove wrote:
I like global warming! :thumbs:


I live in Nebraska and agree. Global warming can only help me. :D

Seriously, global warming does not concern me. At all. I am more worried about the chemicals they put in my food and other government involvement in my life. Is global warming caused by me driving to the grocery store? Is it cause by sun spot activity? Is it caused by Chinese coal fires, volcanoes? I don't care. I agree with the NASA scientist who said something along the lines of, "Who are we to believe that the current global temperature today is ideal?"

I worry about pollution, but air temperature? This whole cap and trade and buying of carbon offsets is just another scam.

This is not a day that will live on in infamy. It will be forgotten in the 24 hour news cycle.
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Re: A day that will live in infamy

Postby Jovorock » Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:22 pm

Per wrote:I hear that Canada, as the first nation, has decided to withdraw from the Kyoto agreement.
That is a disgrace.


To make even less is morally repugnant.

A sad day indeed, when Canada.

Who cares what you Euro's think, our economy is a lot better than yours. I take offense what you think of Canada and I don't care what your opinion is of use.

George Bush screwed the world economy with going into Iraq in 92 or 93, you want to blame anyone blame him not Canada.

We have more oil under Saskatchewan that we don't have to buy oil from any where, I don't know why we don't drill but that is another discussion.
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Re: A day that will live in infamy

Postby damonberryman » Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:22 am

Harper is morally repugnant all on his own. However, unless China and the US sign on it is a toothless tiger that in fact acts as a handicap to the civilized nations. There is no easy answer to any of this while profit runs everything. We are reduced to sounding an alarm no one listens to, or takes no heed as long as the quarterly reports show profit. More than half of Republican candidates call the 'greenhouse effect' an artificial creation that has no basis in science. How are we supposed to make the world a better place? WHere does it start? No one is going to be serious about it on a global scale until the shite hits the fan in a big way. I will tell you what I think will happen. Sooner or later we will pay for the constant ongoing crimes we are committing against the planet every second of every day. Viruses, superbugs, Walking Dead or supercell storms could be featured. Maybe water will go bad. Maybe the air will become unbreathable. It does not matter to the planet. Earth will recover in a relatively short period of time, geologically speaking, and will once again be perfect.....but without most or all of us. It is our survival test. We have turned our back on space, which was a terrible mistake, so if an extinction event comes along all our eggs are in one basket as Asimov or Clarke said. One addition to the last sentence would be WHEN an extinction event comes along...not if. This is our graduate program. If we fail the planet will live on and I take great comfort in that knowledge. Reminds me of a horse race. Will the frontrunner drop back on the turn for the pole? WIll our beautiful art and our feelings of love and charity survive or will the bottom liners win the contest and sacrifice everything for money? Hard to say. Exciting times.
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Re: A day that will live in infamy

Postby Cornuck » Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:33 am

damonberryman wrote:Will our beautiful art and our feelings of love and charity survive or will the bottom liners win the contest and sacrifice everything for money? Hard to say. Exciting times.


My money's on profit and greed. :?
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