GDT Canucks at Senators CBC 4pm PST

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Re: GDT Canucks at Senators CBC 4pm PST

Postby Potatoe1 » Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:40 pm

BCReefer wrote:A team must have more than just scoring goals, it is the little things that help and open the ice that allows your top scorers to do their thing.



Yeah maybe...

Although scoring a crap load of goals, and being really good at not getting scored on, is far and away the best way to win games.

I'm pretty sure every team in the league would rather have all stars in their bottom6 as opposed to scrappers.

Generally speaking you are choosing between mediocre offensive players and physical defensive types, that is typically why teams go for toughness, because it's cheaper and more available.
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Re: GDT Canucks at Senators CBC 4pm PST

Postby BCReefer » Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:22 pm

Potatoe1 wrote:
BCReefer wrote:A team must have more than just scoring goals, it is the little things that help and open the ice that allows your top scorers to do their thing.



Yeah maybe...

Although scoring a crap load of goals, and being really good at not getting scored on, is far and away the best way to win games.

I'm pretty sure every team in the league would rather have all stars in their bottom6 as opposed to scrappers.

Generally speaking you are choosing between mediocre offensive players and physical defensive types, that is typically why teams go for toughness, because it's cheaper and more available.


Of course scoring more goals is the most important thing but unless the NHL changes how they ref the playoffs scoring becomes more difficult and you need a 4th line that contributes way more than this team has seen in the past few years.
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Re: GDT Canucks at Senators CBC 4pm PST

Postby Southern_Canuck » Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:29 pm

tantalum wrote:Also wanted to mention that the thing that sort of pisses me off about the Foligno hits is that this is becoming somewhat of a regular occurence with him. I can accept that the Hodgson hit he didn't have much of chance to do anything. I don't accept that with the Kesler hit. He may not have been able to avoid the hit but he certainly had time to ease up on a guy in vulnerable position which is what players are supposed to do now. When you tack on his fine for a blindside hit to the head of Dwyer last year you have 3 head shots that I know about (and I don't watch the Sens). It would suggest that he's not 100% in control out there.


Foligno also kicked Burrows as they both were at the boards going off on a line change - unnoticed by the refs.

Not a Havlat kick, but still evidence that he basically like Cooke. I'm sure Mike is proud - perhaps he jumped a small jump in his living room when he saw his son's skates trying to slice Burrows' calf.

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Re: GDT Canucks at Senators CBC 4pm PST

Postby Hockey Widow » Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:49 pm

Reef you bring up a good point about playoffs. The games are called differently and anyone who watched the SCF could see that. But it is to be expected cause I doubt it will change in our lifetimes. The answer isn't a fighter but it clearly is in having 4th line players that can PLAY tough. The operative word is play.

I don't know how healthy our role players will be come deadline day but I hope healthy enough that we don't have to use draft picks to bring anyone in. Last year we got Higgins and Lappy and to me they were perfect deadline day deals even though most pundits laughed. If MG can duplicate that this year I will be pleased.

As for 4th line toughness I would like a Jackman type but I doubt he is available. I don't worry about trading within a division because Feaster is at the helm and I think he would make a deal to improve his team.

As for Foligno, well his hit on Cody was fine. Cody fell on that play. If you watch the replay, jut as he was about to get hit he fell forward. The Kesler hit was properly penalized and so I am OK with all of that. And yes he did knee Burrows when he was down, more a shove than a knee, and then started to step on his skate but you could clearly see he held up and stopped himself. So I have no problem with that. Burrows on the other hand is lucky to not get 10 games for joining an altercation from the bench. He clearly grabbed Neil and if not for Kesler slowly taking his hand away he may have been caught.

Alfredson should have been penalized twice for diving but little gets said about that. We get trashed in the media and by other fans every time one of our players embellishes but somehow it gets let go when it is an opponent we play.

And what is all this crap about Burrows opening the door deliberately. All to stir up controversy and then McClean goes on about it. Good for Cherry shutting him up and calling him on his Burrows bias.
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Re: GDT Canucks at Senators CBC 4pm PST

Postby Waffle » Mon Dec 12, 2011 2:13 am

I was curious about the fourth lines of some of the teams Vancouver may meet up with in the playoffs, and, as best I can tell because of course they change around a fair amount, here they are. I am not sure who "the best" of this bunch might be, but these are the kind of players that Vancouver has to match up with. For the sake of comparison, not that it means much, Vancouver's fourth line has a total of about 12 points.

Boston’s fourth line:
Shawn Thorton, Daniel Paille, Greg Campbell (18 points)

Pittsburg Penguins fourth line:
Steve MacIntyre, Craig Adams, Jason Williams (6 points)

Minnesto Wild fourth line:
Guilllaume Latendresse, Darroll Powe, Colton Gillies (16 points)

Chicago Black Hawks fourth line:
Marcus Krüger, Viktor Stalberg, Jamal Mayers (26 points)

San Jose Sharks fourth line:
Brad Winchester, Andrew Desjardins and Andrew Murray (15 points)

Detroit fourth line:
Drew Miller , Patrick Eaves, Tomas Holmstrom (20 points)
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Re: GDT Canucks at Senators CBC 4pm PST

Postby Per » Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:33 am

Waffle wrote:I was curious about the fourth lines of some of the teams Vancouver may meet up with in the playoffs, and, as best I can tell because of course they change around a fair amount, here they are. I am not sure who "the best" of this bunch might be, but these are the kind of players that Vancouver has to match up with. For the sake of comparison, not that it means much, Vancouver's fourth line has a total of about 12 points.

Boston’s fourth line:
Shawn Thorton, Daniel Paille, Greg Campbell (18 points)

Pittsburg Penguins fourth line:
Steve MacIntyre, Craig Adams, Jason Williams (6 points)

Minnesto Wild fourth line:
Guilllaume Latendresse, Darroll Powe, Colton Gillies (16 points)

Chicago Black Hawks fourth line:
Marcus Krüger, Viktor Stalberg, Jamal Mayers (26 points)

San Jose Sharks fourth line:
Brad Winchester, Andrew Desjardins and Andrew Murray (15 points)

Detroit fourth line:
Drew Miller , Patrick Eaves, Tomas Holmstrom (20 points)

Well, in all fairness, should really the nine power play points Holmström has be counted as fourth line scoring? :eh:

Homer is a rather unique role player. He has pretty mediocre skills, but he has turned standing-in-front-of-the-goalie-and-getting-the-shit-beat-out-of-you-while-grinning into an art form. When the Red Wings are five on five he plays with other scrubs, when they get a power play he plays with their finest elite players. And that's when he gets his points. Well, or at least nine of the twelve he has amassed so far.

Thus I think it'd be more correct to state that Detroit's fourth line has 11 points (20-9).
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Re: GDT Canucks at Senators CBC 4pm PST

Postby Larry Goodenough » Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:23 am

It's my understanding Vermette took out Chara's leg on the weekend and the Bruins did nothing about it. Chara's now out indefinately.

Add that to the fact Lucic just stood around after Rome knocked Horton out...

It appears Columbus is set to win the Cup this year with all that toughness and the Bruins are destined to lose all their star players to injury because they're following Gillis' pacifist model.
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Re: GDT Canucks at Senators CBC 4pm PST

Postby Blob Mckenzie » Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:16 am

Larry Goodenough wrote:It appears Columbus is set to win the Cup this year with all that toughness


I remember everyone on this board striving for Gillis to emulate the Blue Jackets model. I know I brought it up myself several times.
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Re: GDT Canucks at Senators CBC 4pm PST

Postby Larry Goodenough » Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:24 am

Island Nucklehead wrote:Okay. So we punish them on the PP... let's see if this REALLY starts to get out of hand. Regardless, I really don't see how replacing Weise with a guy that can actually fight hurts us at all.

Nevermind, Foglino takes a run at Kesler. Guess we really do need some more toughness. I'd love to have SOMEONE that can either A) answer the bell, or B) take some runs at Spezza or Alfredsson.


Kesler and Hansen both took shots at Alfredsson, the Captain and legend in Ottawa. Chris Neil did nothing about it.
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Re: GDT Canucks at Senators CBC 4pm PST

Postby Waffle » Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:39 pm

I realize that the fourth line statistics have a lot of variables which makes them hard to compare, but its hard to find some objective basis of comparison, rather than just depend on subjective feelings about the players for comparison, and without delving deeper into statistical analysis.

I meant to post the plus/minus also but didn't get around to it.

Boston’s fourth line:
Shawn Thorton, Daniel Paille, Greg Campbell (+4)

Pittsburg Penguins fourth line:
Steve MacIntyre, Craig Adams, Jason Williams (-5)

Minnesto Wild fourth line:
Guilllaume Latendresse, Darroll Powe, Colton Gillies (+4)

Chicago Black Hawks fourth line:
Marcus Krüger, Viktor Stalberg, Jamal Mayers (-3)

San Jose Sharks fourth line:
Brad Winchester, Andrew Desjardins, Andrew Murray (+7)

Detroit fourth line:
Drew Miller , Patrick Eaves, Tomas Holmstrom (+8)

Vancouver's fourth line hovers around the 0 mark, despite all the changes that have gone on there this year.

As I recall in the playoffs last year, Boston's fourth line sometimes played 15 minutes a game, which is very helpful in keeping the other three lines fresh, and perhaps even less banged up over the course of the playoffs.
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Re: GDT Canucks at Senators CBC 4pm PST

Postby Waffle » Mon Dec 12, 2011 2:06 pm

Thomas Drance over at the Canucks Army must be reading this thread!!

http://canucksarmy.com/2011/12/12/fourth-line-help
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Re: GDT Canucks at Senators CBC 4pm PST

Postby wienerdog » Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:10 pm

Waffle wrote:Chicago Black Hawks fourth line:
Marcus Krüger, Viktor Stalberg, Jamal Mayers (-3)

As I recall in the playoffs last year, Boston's fourth line sometimes played 15 minutes a game, which is very helpful in keeping the other three lines fresh, and perhaps even less banged up over the course of the playoffs.


Nice work, Waffle.

Two things jump out at me:

1) CHI's 4th is responsible for 26 points, yet is a combined -3? Yikes.

2) Your last statement here is key. We need a 4th that is competent and that Veenyo will trust. If he can take some of the load off our horses, it will help tremendously with injuries, freshness, etc.
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Re: GDT Canucks at Senators CBC 4pm PST

Postby dbr » Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:37 pm

Hey guys, if you want to take a real serious look at line combinations check this out:

http://www.leftwinglock.com/line-combos/

I used it to look at the Blackhawks for example, since as weinerdog mentioned they have accumulated an astonishing number of points (on pace for about 20-25 each for the season).

Anyway the way I read the results is that its a list of each line combination used sorted by the percentage of ice time that combo has seen in the corresponding situation. So when I search for forward lines at even strength this season I see that the third highest line in terms of share of even strength ice time is Staalberg-Toews-Kane, which kind of torpedoes the notion of Staalberg as a fourth liner (although I'm sure he finds himself there some nights). Same with Marcus Kruger, whose most frequent linemates are Marian Hossa and Patrick Sharp.

Chicago is a particlarly troublesome team to do this with, as they seem to continually try depth players with their top four forwards - pretty much the only constant is the Bickell-Bolland-Frolik combination. For other teams this tool confirms the combinations, for example Thornton-Campbell-Paille.
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Re: GDT Canucks at Senators CBC 4pm PST

Postby Potatoe1 » Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:40 pm

Waffle wrote:Thomas Drance over at the Canucks Army must be reading this thread!!

http://canucksarmy.com/2011/12/12/fourth-line-help



This is a really good article BTW.

As far as the 4th line goes, it's a lot better then last year (like miles better) but could still use a bit of work.

I think they were on the right track with the Volpatti / Lappy / Weise combo but IMO Weise wasn't quite physical enough and Volpatti wasn't quite skilled enough.

If both guys improved a little in those areas the combo would be quite good IMO.

With Volpatti out for the year that's no longer an option however and they should be looking for a similar type of forward that has already progressed they way they were hopping Volpatti would.

Blob has made mention of some guys who would fit the bill, but basically any hard hitting forward who can play a little and fight a little would be perfect.

The only HW I would take is Shawn Thorton, and there is basically zero chance Boston give him up.
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Re: GDT Canucks at Senators CBC 4pm PST

Postby wienerdog » Mon Dec 12, 2011 5:15 pm

Drance lists, in no particular order but based on his BTN analysis:

Dvorak, Burish, Zac Smith, Winnick and either of Nate Thompson or Adam Hall


as good options to target.

I don't know enough about the grunts around the League. Besides Burish (whom we all know and love so much) and Dvorak, any thoughts on these guys?
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