GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD), 104

This forum is to discuss game day happenings. New threads will be posted for each game.

Moderator: Referees

Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Postby tantalum » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:14 pm

Topper wrote:The one that rookies don't should not be held accountable, yeah, right.


And where did I say that? I never said rookies shouldn't be held accountable. People ought to give a rookie some leeway in evaluating play as they are learning the game whereas the veterans are not. There is such a thing as more accountable especially when it comes to experience. For some experienced players a mistake really is inexcusable (the Hansen lack of back check, Bieksa constantly getting beat 1-on-1). Also that the Hodgson mistake, as mentioned by others, wasn't the most egregious defensive error on the play let alone on the evening. Hodgson gets some leeway in my evaluation and in the coaches evaluation BUT he is also held accountable by the coaching staff through decreased ice time and line demotions when he isn't playing as well as he can. There isn't going to be a tangible punishment for each and every mistake but in the end he likely gets away with less than a veteran. I think people forget just how bad a guy like Hansen was 5-on-5 when he started...there was a reason he was in the doghouse.

The kid is a plus player. He isn't hurting the team at all. The numbers Pot put up on another board concerning chances for and against also show Hodgson in the positive. Essentially every stat shows him ahead of the remaining bottom 6 regulars and bottom 6 wannabes on BOTH sides of the puck. The only stat that doesn't say that is the Topper stat, and I'm not sure anyone knows what the criteria is for that stat other than "i said he would never be an NHLer so damn it all I'm going to nit pick and explode inconsequential things up as if they matter in the grand scheme of things".
Last edited by tantalum on Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
tantalum
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 1911
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:41 am
Location: Carl Junction, MO

Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Postby BladesofSteel » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:21 pm

Rumsfeld wrote:
Topper wrote:Rummy - Elite?, hyperbole?


When it comes to passing I think he has elite potential, yeah. He makes dishes on a regular basis that very few NHL players can make. The rest of his game has a ways to go for sure.

I'd like to see him get open to fire it a bit more, he has a good shot -- but his linemates aren't exactly high-level playmakers.

+1

Agree wholeheartedly Rummy.
The grass is always greener
BladesofSteel
CC 1st Team All-Star
 
Posts: 792
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2011 6:29 pm
Location: Lower left-hand corner

Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Postby Topper » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:34 pm

Potatoe1 wrote:Last night I thought Cody spent a lot of time along the wall and I saw him go to the net on several occasions, what else should I be looking for?

When? I was able to nail my examples down to the shift. Again, flybys don't count.

Meds, the 1st example I mentioned, Cody and the other canuck were pretty much rubbing butt cheeks as Cody got to the play and turned away. The second example was a loose puck in the nuetral zone, Cody could have made a play for it if he was willing, but instead faded off, giving up on the puck and the allowing the Preds to get the puck into Vancouver's zone

Potatoe1 wrote:Again you fixate on a handful of mistakes and ignore the bigger picture.

An entire season working towards Stanley Cup contention is not the big picture? Sure thing there spudly.


The big picture is exactly why he should be playing.

I'll stick with my view that dealing with mistakes by coddled rookies should not be part of the big picture this season. It was the same reasoning for Lapierre's acquisition last season.

20 games in and folks are already christening him the next Adam Oates. Wow. What is the comparable for RNH?
Over the Internet, you can pretend to be anyone or anything.

I'm amazed that so many people choose to be complete twats.
User avatar
Topper
CC Legend
 
Posts: 4600
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2004 8:11 pm
Location: Earth, most days.

Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Postby Rumsfeld » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:43 pm

Unless my weed-addled memory is failing me once again and Adam Oates was a career second-line center who was good for 40-50 assists a year in his prime, I don't think there have been any comparisons that would put him in that territory. Barring serious injury (the kid is pretty small), Hopkins looks like he will become a perennial All-Star and 100+ point player.

Some of your observations are sound ones Topps, but I think at this point his offensive contributions are far outweighing his defensive inadequacies. Defense can be taught pretty quickly and it will be. He won't learn to play a two-way NHL game in the AHL because his opposition will be slower, smaller and weaker. He's already made some improvements away from the puck this season.

As an aside, I'd like to see Cody employ the walk-out slapper from the half-boards more often on the PP. He's always looking for the pass, and rightly so given his propensity for making sweet plays, but the kid can wire it.
Cowards die a thousand times before their deaths; the valiant never taste of death but once.
User avatar
Rumsfeld
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 2632
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:48 pm
Location: Pissed in the Canyon

Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Postby Potatoe1 » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:54 pm

Topper wrote:
Potatoe1 wrote:When? I was able to nail my examples down to the shift. Again, flybys don't count.


This is hilarious.

You really think me positing specifc points during a game where cody did or did not go to the net is evidence of anything? Are you saying that during the whole game last night he did not go to the net or play in the corners at all?

Is there some sort of defined barometer where we can gague if a player is spending enough time in there areas? :D

I actually cant recall the last time I saw somone grasp at straws as hard as you are doing right now :lol:

Personally I'm just having fun watching you shovel the dirt out of the hole you are digging.
Potatoe1
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 1613
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2011 1:06 pm

Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Postby Topper » Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:12 pm

Potatoe1 wrote:
Topper wrote:
Potatoe1 wrote:When? I was able to nail my examples down to the shift. Again, flybys don't count.

You really think me positing specifc points during a game where cody did or did not go to the net is evidence of anything?

Not doing so is evidence of nothing. I watched the game last night and managed to note specifics.

It is a GDT, I noted his mistakes and softness during last nights game and related them to a pattern I have noted. You have concurred with me on the softness of his play. Why you continue to debate after you agreed with me is beyond me.

Tant, rookies are held more accountable for their errors. Where a vet will be given the benifit of the doubt and maybe a benching for a shift or two, rookies, as you noted with Hansen (you could have also used Raymond as an example) see pressbox time.

Again, Cody is being coddled. Would a steady dose of reward/punishment, as was done with Raymond and Hansen not be better for the big picture longterm development of Cody?

Recall he was benched for a period a couple of weeks back and came back with one of his best ever games to date.

I did not make light of the errors of Bieksa or Hansen on the last two goals, but I certainly feel the mistake by Cody on the Tootoo goal is deseving of goat horns.
Over the Internet, you can pretend to be anyone or anything.

I'm amazed that so many people choose to be complete twats.
User avatar
Topper
CC Legend
 
Posts: 4600
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2004 8:11 pm
Location: Earth, most days.

Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Postby Meds » Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:22 pm

Topper wrote:Meds, the 1st example I mentioned, Cody and the other canuck were pretty much rubbing butt cheeks as Cody got to the play and turned away. The second example was a loose puck in the nuetral zone, Cody could have made a play for it if he was willing, but instead faded off, giving up on the puck and the allowing the Preds to get the puck into Vancouver's zone


Fair enough. The neutral zone example I was not defending at all, the only excuse for that is if he is 100% sure that he cannot get to the puck before the opposing player can get there and make a play on it. In that case he is better off to play it positionally and remain conservative. However, if he could potentially tie the puck up there then, I agree, he needs to engage. Although, I will say that when you look at that play you have to consider the player. Hodgson is most definitely not going to slow down Weber or Suter or a guy like Tootoo or Fischer, he's not that type of player and he is not expected to be. If that is Kesler, Booth, or Volpatti, then they should be going hard at that puck and if they are a bit late, at least finish a check and rub the guy out along the boards.

One more thing in regards to that play, if Hodgson is playing center, his responsibility is to keep an eye on the middle of the ice and keep the attackers honest when looking to the slot, the only time he is expected to engage along the wall is when the puck goes low and the far winger now cheats into the high slot as the defense shifts. Unless Vigneault is running a "box and 1" defense where everyone sets up and the 5th man (often the center) hounds the puck as best he can. In hockey, even that requires shifting though when the puck whips around to the far side and players have to cover for each other.
User avatar
Meds
CC Legend
 
Posts: 3147
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:50 pm

Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Postby Potatoe1 » Fri Dec 02, 2011 5:04 pm

Topper wrote:Not doing so is evidence of nothing. I watched the game last night and managed to note specifics.


In order to do what you are talking about you would have to do it for Cody and every other player in the league, then you would have to establish a mean point and measure Cody against it.

Otherwise you are just pissing in the wind.

What you gave was an opinion, nothing more.

I disagree with it.

You have concurred with me on the softness of his play. Why you continue to debate after you agreed with me is beyond me.


I did not agree that he was soft.

I said he wasn't Physical.

Cody is not a physical forward and he never has been.

That doesnt mean he is "soft".

For me a soft player is a guy who alters their game to it's own detriment because they dont want to take any physical abuse. A great example would be Patrick Marleau who has an incredibly long history of disappearing when people push him physically in the playoffs.

Pavol Demitra is another guy, his play in the 2010 playoffs was a straight up embaresment.

Cody on the other hand played is best games in his former leagues when it matters most, I doubt that would have happened if he were unwilling to play hard against physical opponents.


Again, Cody is being coddled. Would a steady dose of reward/punishment, as was done with Raymond and Hansen not be better for the big picture longterm development of Cody?

Recall he was benched for a period a couple of weeks back and came back with one of his best ever games to date.


You say he is being coddled and then you note that he was benched for a mistake?

I'm not getting your point here.


Certainly feel the mistake by Cody on the Tootoo goal is deseving of goat horns.


Like I said we disagree.

Letting a pass come out of the corner is no where near as bad as letting a guy stand unchecked in grade A scoring area. This is basically like saying that Rome was the goat on the final goal because he let his man get the pass through.

Passes like that come out of the corner a dozen times every game, how many goals does burrows score if he gets to stand out front unchecked all night while the Sedins shake defenseman and throw pucks to him?

Hodgson did not do a good job containing his man, but Hansen and Ballard can not just stand around in front covering no one.

When the coaches look at the tape those are the 2 they will likely assign the majority of the blame towards.
Potatoe1
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 1613
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2011 1:06 pm

Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Postby tantalum » Fri Dec 02, 2011 5:22 pm

Topper wrote:Tant, rookies are held more accountable for their errors. Where a vet will be given the benifit of the doubt and maybe a benching for a shift or two, rookies, as you noted with Hansen (you could have also used Raymond as an example) see pressbox time.


And Hodgson might indeed see press box time at some point. Raymond and Hansen were not immediately put in the pressbox either. I'm not sure Raymond actually was (I recall him being benched for the game and then demoted to the 4th line for a couple of games). Hansen was an unmitigated disaster 5-on-5 he really was. He was far more lost than Hodgson. He could kill penalties thanks to his quickness but he had no idea at all of what to do on a back check or along the boards. That and his effort level was often reminiscent of his back check last night.

Again, Cody is being coddled. Would a steady dose of reward/punishment, as was done with Raymond and Hansen not be better for the big picture longterm development of Cody?


He is getting that steady dose. He gets benched for shifts or periods. He gets demoted. He gets shitty linemates. He gets shuttled around the lineup never getting a chance to get comfortable. No he hasn't been sat yet but that is, as has been pointed out numerous times, because he has been much better than 5 or 6 forwards on the roster. There is no reason to take him out of the lineup as long as he is doing the job he is asked to do and does so reasonably well. And that has happened. If he goes on to have a string of poor games you'll see him in the pressbox. That hasn't happened yet.
User avatar
tantalum
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 1911
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:41 am
Location: Carl Junction, MO

Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Postby RoyalDude » Sat Dec 03, 2011 11:05 am

Potatoe1 wrote:I did not agree that he was soft.

I said he wasn't Physical.

Cody is not a physical forward and he never has been.

That doesnt mean he is "soft".

For me a soft player is a guy who alters their game to it's own detriment because they dont want to take any physical abuse. A great example would be Patrick Marleau who has an incredibly long history of disappearing when people push him physically in the playoffs.

Pavol Demitra is another guy, his play in the 2010 playoffs was a straight up embaresment.

Cody on the other hand played is best games in his former leagues when it matters most, I doubt that would have happened if he were unwilling to play hard against physical opponents.




Totally agree with this. When you guage 'skilled' players toughness you have to look at their compete level when the going gets tough, watching Cody battle for the puck and not fold like a cheap tent when opposing players are trying to knock him off the puck shows me that this kid has what it takes to compete in the pro's and isn't a chicken shit to the physical aspects of the game. He is getting tougher to bounce off the puck in the offensive zone the more he gets comfortable out there, he holds on to the puck until he has a play where a lot of people in the league don't have that extra push back or fight off to hang on to the puck long enough to where he can make a play. This was the same potential I saw in those early frustrating years with the Sedins. You just see the potential there, or now I do. I wouldn't sweat the small things with a player like Cody, especially in his first full year of hockey, all rooks go through this.

I don't understand why you are being this hard on the kid, Topper and are unable to see the upside here.
"I just want to say one word to you. Just one word. Are you listening? - Plastics." - The Graduate
User avatar
RoyalDude
CC Legend
 
Posts: 4302
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 6:36 pm
Location: Vancouver

Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Postby ukcanuck » Sat Dec 03, 2011 11:43 am

The hypocrinometre is going off like a five alarm fire in this thread.
First the Pot's calling the kettle black AND chef boi arr dee trying to claim he never called them the "Sedin Sisters" in their first years in the league. :shock:

:D :D
User avatar
ukcanuck
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 2307
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:04 am

Previous

Return to Game Day Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests