GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD), 104

This forum is to discuss game day happenings. New threads will be posted for each game.

Moderator: Referees

Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Postby Rumsfeld » Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:24 pm

Topper wrote:Rummy - Elite?, hyperbole?


When it comes to passing I think he has elite potential, yeah. He makes dishes on a regular basis that very few NHL players can make. The rest of his game has a ways to go for sure.

I'd like to see him get open to fire it a bit more, he has a good shot -- but his linemates aren't exactly high-level playmakers.
Cowards die a thousand times before their deaths; the valiant never taste of death but once.
User avatar
Rumsfeld
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 2632
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:48 pm
Location: Pissed in the Canyon

Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Postby Potatoe1 » Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:27 pm

Rumsfeld wrote:
Potatoe1 wrote:He's already been a positive contributor to one of the best teams in the league and given the offensive skills he's demonstrated as well as his commitment to off ice training, it's seems very likely that he will make big strides over the next few years.


He has elite NHL vision and passing skills to be sure. I'd say he has top-six 60-point potential next year and who knows the year after.

He'd have to play the wing though. I don't think third-line center is where his skills would be best utilized. The best fit for him going forward is second-line center, which makes me think it's possible he gets moved. The way he's playing and at his age he is becoming a valuable bargaining chip if we do decide to go after a big name.

It's the kind of trade we might look back on years later with deep regret though. He is our only really good young offensive player and it's hard to know what his ceiling is as far as production goes.


I doubt he gets traded.

But I do agree, with the rest of your post.

Point totals are just as much about opportunity as they are about skill. It would take a small miracle for a guy A guy playing 13mpg on the 3rd line and only getting second unit power play time to crack 60 points.

That said, a players contribution to their team should really not be measured in terms of point totals.

Players should be measured by their ability to increase the teams incremental goal differential over an average player in the same role, getting the same ice time.

In other words a player performing far above average in a smaller role, generally contributes more to his team winning then a player in a bigger role who's performance is below average. This is normally true even if the player in the larger role posts significantly more points over all.
Potatoe1
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 1613
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2011 1:06 pm

Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Postby Rumsfeld » Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:29 pm

Corb wrote:Anyway, interesting times. I'm not sure this team is as good as last year, it just seems to have a different feel.


I think they're probably as good as last year, at least on paper. The difference this year is that we don't have Ehrhoff carrying the puck up the ice and Bieksa has been horrible. Like really really horrible.

Oh, and that Luongo guy has sucked balls as well (just like I prognosticated in the predictions thread). ;) I predicted this would be his worst regular season in a really long time, because I knew that Final performance and all the scrutiny that followed was going to fuck the dude up bad. Still hope I'm wrong about that one.
Cowards die a thousand times before their deaths; the valiant never taste of death but once.
User avatar
Rumsfeld
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 2632
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:48 pm
Location: Pissed in the Canyon

Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Postby Rumsfeld » Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:42 pm

Potatoe1 wrote:I doubt he gets traded.

But I do agree, with the rest of your post.

Point totals are just as much about opportunity as they are about skill. It would take a small miracle for a guy A guy playing 13mpg on the 3rd line and only getting second unit power play time to crack 60 points.

That said, a players contribution to their team should really not be measured in terms of point totals.

Players should be measured by their ability to increase the teams incremental goal differential over an average player in the same role, getting the same ice time.

In other words a player performing far above average in a smaller role, generally contributes more to his team winning then a player in a bigger role who's performance is below average. This is normally true even if the player in the larger role posts significantly more points over all.


So how do you see him realizing his potential on the third line next season? The season after? Does he move to the wing on the second line next year, where he's looked far less effective as a playmaker? Kelser and Henrik aren't going anywhere. Higgins and Booth are coming back next year as well, though Higgins would be great on the third line so I could see them eventually exchanging places if Cody keeps progressing.

These questions are the only reason I'd even consider moving him.
Cowards die a thousand times before their deaths; the valiant never taste of death but once.
User avatar
Rumsfeld
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 2632
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:48 pm
Location: Pissed in the Canyon

Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Postby Meds » Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:55 pm

Rumsfeld wrote:I know AV likes to green-light the defense but I'm getting palpitations watching Rome and Alberts pinching down low every shift like they're freaking Paul Coffey.

The chance of them actually contributing offensively from there is far outweighed by the chance of their team getting burned becaude they're too slow to get back in the play. Their offensive instincts are terrible and I'd rather see them stick to defense, especially in the third period of a tie game.



I nearly dry-heaved when I watched Rome try a toe drag along the boards on a pinch last night.....the result? He got pinned by 2 dmen against the boards and Nashville went the other way. Didn't mind the pinch to keep the puck in, but he had a forward in the far corner wide open. Next time just push the puck around to him and keep the play going eh wot Aaron.....

Agree with ya Rats, Topper is fairly accurate with his critiquing of Hodgson, however, he's focusing on all the aspects of CoHo's game that Hodgson was NOT drafted for. He could battle more consistently along the boards, but at the same time, he's not afraid of the scrum in front of the net, and many of Topper's examples are when there is already a Canuck or two in the scrum and Hodgson drops down lower for a pass. It's called supporting the puck, and I like it because we see time and again where the puck squirts out of the scrum and we don't have a player in the open ice with time to make a play and it's just buried again along the boards.

As for the Lou belly flop. I stand corrected, he does hit the ice after the puck goes in. However, regardless of whether or not that puck even hits the net, Louie is still ending up on his belly on both those plays because he's starting that forward dive before the puck is released. My issue is the way that he comes across the bottom of the net, lunging out and falling forward like that instead of staying up on his knees and making himself big. I get what he's trying to do, take away the bottom of the net while moving his body out at the puck to eliminate some angle, it's what Hasek always did, eliminate the area where the highest percentage of pucks make there way into the net. Well, news flash Louie, Hasek played in the dead puck era where attacking forwards were working as hard (or harder) to stay on their skates while being pulled and hauled at by defending sticks, as they were trying to get the puck up and over the goalie. Now, if a defender's stick so much as passes through the ref's field of view of the attacker's hands/stick/mid section on a scoring chance, it's almost a guaranteed 2 minutes in the box. The majority of successful goalies right now are making themself look as big as Giguere circa 2002. Lou's not in the successful minority right now.
User avatar
Meds
CC Legend
 
Posts: 3324
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:50 pm

Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Postby Potatoe1 » Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:04 pm

Topper wrote:Those of you who do not follow Spud's strawman will know I have consistently wished the best for Cody while never shying away or glossing over his short comings.



Orly

Topper wrote:As the refugees know, I have long seen the challenges in Cody's game. While true, he is a smart player, it is also true he can not skate. Yes he has been injured, but he has also spent an inordinate amount of time with skating coaches and still has no stride.

If he is to have any sort of an NHL career, he needs to work his thinking game to stay in the league. Unfortunately, what I have seen to date from him are nothing more than plays he can get away with in the OHL and AHL, but NHL defenders are smarter and quicker. he is a boy among men at the NHL level. A small, slow boy.

I'm not sure he'll make the adjustments and I'd prefer to cut bait while there is still life in the worm and possibility of upside.


Topper wrote:
The playoffs had me leaning more towards career AHL'r and thinking we best get some return for him while there is still an illusion of upside.


Topper wrote:With his speed, he'll trail our D on the rush.



Topper wrote:
I have yet to see any hint of flash from Cody at the NHL level. What I see are defenders swatting him about as he tries his nifty OHL stickwork.


Topper wrote:I owe an apology for my comments on Cody last game. I compared him to Ryan Shannon and Jason King and I owe those two an apology. Cody is nowhere near that good.


Clearly you are a fan....



Now we are getting somewhere, I would say he avoids the table all together and it limited his good effort to one zone, not three.


As ususal you are over the top in your criticism.

Clearly he is young, and not the strongest player on the ice, but i watched fairly closely last night and I did not see a player looking to avoid contact. Quite the opposite actually.


At this point I question if he belongs in the line up of a Cup contender. I have little tolerance for folks learning on the job with the stage the Canuck's are at this season and would put Cody in the same boat as Tanev. If Raymond is anything close to the form he was in last season, i rather have Hodgson leaning his skills in Chicago than have to put up with rookie mistakes.


Again you fixate on a handful of mistakes and ignore the bigger picture.

This is pretty much the definition of biased observation.

It is quite clear to basically everyone that you can not be objective with regard to this player.

Hodgson has better shot, scoring chance, and goal differentials then anyone in the bottom 6, yet you have claimed since game 1 that he should be in Chicago while inferior players like Weiss, Volpatti, and Ebbett soak up his ice time.

The playoffs are a different animal, and one can certainly speculate, but in the here and now it is utter ridiculous to claim that Hodgson has not been full value for the ice time he's been given.
Potatoe1
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 1613
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2011 1:06 pm

Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Postby herb » Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:24 pm

There's no doubt that the biggest complaints/areas for improvement with Hodgson are his physicality and defensive play. Hodgson is approximately an average sized forward at 6 foot and 185lbs (roughly the same size as the Sedins) so there's no reason why he can't become more physical. We have seen him go hard to the net quite a bit, which is promising for a young player.

The defensive side needs improvement, there's no question about that. I do think he has improved quite a bit in his short time here and this aspect of his game should improve with time and experience.

The thing is, he is a good playmaker with great vision and passing abilities and I think his shot is underrated at this point. His goal last night was a very nice play that was started and finished by Hodgson. The things that can't be taught (vision, intelligence, playmaking, work ethic, character, etc.) seem to be there. His skating has improved immensely so I see no reason why his physicality and defensive play won't also improve.

I know the time is now, but trading Hodgson at this point would be a tough pill to swallow. Jensen, and Hodgson are our only blue chip forward prospects.
User avatar
herb
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 2145
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2004 3:17 pm
Location: Mars

Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Postby Jovocop » Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:30 pm

Meds wrote:I nearly dry-heaved when I watched Rome try a toe drag along the boards on a pinch last night.....the result? He got pinned by 2 dmen against the boards and Nashville went the other way. Didn't mind the pinch to keep the puck in, but he had a forward in the far corner wide open. Next time just push the puck around to him and keep the play going eh wot Aaron.....


Rome, with the three goals, might be thinking he is the next Ehrhoff now... :evil:
User avatar
Jovocop
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 1736
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:18 pm

Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Postby Rumsfeld » Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:36 pm

herb wrote:There's no doubt that the biggest complaints/areas for improvement with Hodgson are his physicality and defensive play. Hodgson is approximately an average sized forward at 6 foot and 185lbs (roughly the same size as the Sedins) so there's no reason why he can't become more physical.


The Sedins are 6'2 and over 200 lbs. They are listed at 188 on one site but that was their rookie weight.

Hodgson has a small frame but he is built like a tank for his size. Some players just won't ever have much of a physical edge to their game, though. His back problems might have something to do with his unwillingness take hits along the wall.
Cowards die a thousand times before their deaths; the valiant never taste of death but once.
User avatar
Rumsfeld
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 2632
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:48 pm
Location: Pissed in the Canyon

Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Postby tantalum » Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:40 pm

Topper wrote:[
Tant, nice of you to just throw number out there while asking others to check theirs. :D


The correction on my number didn't change my argument one iota.

The correction on the number you threw out torpedoed your thought.
User avatar
tantalum
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 1911
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:41 am
Location: Carl Junction, MO

Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Postby Topper » Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:46 pm

Potatoe1 wrote:Clearly he is young, and not the strongest player on the ice, but i watched fairly closely last night and I did not see a player looking to avoid contact. Quite the opposite actually.


I provided specifics, can you? Zero hits.. Flyby don't count. You speak in generalities without backing evidence. I provided two incidents were he deliberately avoided contact, and not just from last night, but from the last several games. It has taken awhile, but several of you are now commenting on his softness.

Potatoe1 wrote:Again you fixate on a handful of mistakes and ignore the bigger picture.

This is pretty much the definition of biased observation.


An entire season working towards Stanley Cup contention is not the big picture? Sure thing there spudly.
Over the Internet, you can pretend to be anyone or anything.

I'm amazed that so many people choose to be complete twats.
User avatar
Topper
CC Legend
 
Posts: 4787
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2004 8:11 pm
Location: Earth, most days.

Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Postby Topper » Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:52 pm

tantalum wrote:
Topper wrote:[
Tant, nice of you to just throw number out there while asking others to check theirs. :D


The correction on my number didn't change my argument one iota.

The one that rookies don't should not be held accountable, yeah, right.
Over the Internet, you can pretend to be anyone or anything.

I'm amazed that so many people choose to be complete twats.
User avatar
Topper
CC Legend
 
Posts: 4787
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2004 8:11 pm
Location: Earth, most days.

Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Postby Potatoe1 » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:00 pm

Topper wrote:I provided specifics, can you? Zero hits.. Flyby don't count. You speak in generalities without backing evidence.


How does one provide evidence on a players "willingness" to take hits?

It's purely subjective and as most would agree, your objectivity with regard to this player is basically non-existent.

Last night I thought Cody spent a lot of time along the wall and I saw him go to the net on several occasions, what else should I be looking for?

An entire season working towards Stanley Cup contention is not the big picture? Sure thing there spudly.


The big picture is exactly why he should be playing.

In the short term there is no one more deserving of his ice time.

And in the long run he gets experience at the NHL level which will pay dividends down the road.

Even if he starts the Playoffs in the press box (doubtful but possible) there is almost no chance he doesn't end up playing during a potential cup run. Last year we used 16 forwards, our 13th forward played in almost half the games and our 13th through 16th combined for 26 games.

Hodgson will play regardless, and given his lack of NHL experience the more he plays between then and now the better he will likely perform.
Last edited by Potatoe1 on Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Potatoe1
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 1613
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2011 1:06 pm

Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Postby herb » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:03 pm

Rumsfeld wrote:The Sedins are 6'2 and over 200 lbs. They are listed at 188 on one site but that was their rookie weight.

Hodgson has a small frame but he is built like a tank for his size. Some players just won't ever have much of a physical edge to their game, though. His back problems might have something to do with his unwillingness take hits along the wall.


Everywhere I looked has Henrik at 6'2" and 188lbs and Daniel at 6'1" or 6'2" and 187-190lbs. Who knows how accurate any of these are. I trust you though. ;)

Again, no idea how accurate this is, but here is an analysis of average NHL size in 2010. The average forward is apparently 6'1" and 202lbs.

http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2010/10/15/1751273/sizing-up-the-nhl-by-height-weight-and-age

My point is that he isn't a particularly small player, therefore his size shouldn't limit his physicality. Some have suggested that Hodgson is a small player. The facts on the other hand seem to suggest that he is pretty much an average sized forward at 6'0" and 185lbs. At 21 years of age, he's likely to gain 10 or more pounds before too long.
User avatar
herb
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 2145
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2004 3:17 pm
Location: Mars

Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Postby Rumsfeld » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:08 pm

herb wrote:
Rumsfeld wrote:The Sedins are 6'2 and over 200 lbs. They are listed at 188 on one site but that was their rookie weight.

Hodgson has a small frame but he is built like a tank for his size. Some players just won't ever have much of a physical edge to their game, though. His back problems might have something to do with his unwillingness take hits along the wall.


Everywhere I looked has Henrik at 6'2" and 188lbs and Daniel at 6'1" or 6'2" and 187-190lbs. Who knows how accurate any of these are. I trust you though. ;)

Again, no idea how accurate this is, but here is an analysis of average NHL size in 2010. The average forward is apparently 6'1" and 202lbs.

http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2010/10/15/1751273/sizing-up-the-nhl-by-height-weight-and-age

My point is that he isn't a particularly small player, therefore his size shouldn't limit his physicality. Some have suggested that Hodgson is a small player. The facts on the other hand seem to suggest that he is pretty much an average sized forward at 6'0" and 185lbs. At 21 years of age, he's likely to gain 10 or more pounds before too long.


Yeah, I could be wrong but I think a lot of the time they don't update those weights once players make the league.

I remember reading an article a few years ago about the twins bulking up to get to 205 over the summer. By the end of the season they both tend to look pretty guant though. Maybe a higher-calorie meal plan is in order once the season is in full swing.

I doubt Hodgson will be putting on much more weight. Unlike most players his age he looks to have already filled out as much as he can without getting too puffy.
Cowards die a thousand times before their deaths; the valiant never taste of death but once.
User avatar
Rumsfeld
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 2632
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:48 pm
Location: Pissed in the Canyon

PreviousNext

Return to Game Day Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests