GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD), 104

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Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Post by Meds » Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:55 pm

Rumsfeld wrote:I know AV likes to green-light the defense but I'm getting palpitations watching Rome and Alberts pinching down low every shift like they're freaking Paul Coffey.

The chance of them actually contributing offensively from there is far outweighed by the chance of their team getting burned becaude they're too slow to get back in the play. Their offensive instincts are terrible and I'd rather see them stick to defense, especially in the third period of a tie game.

I nearly dry-heaved when I watched Rome try a toe drag along the boards on a pinch last night.....the result? He got pinned by 2 dmen against the boards and Nashville went the other way. Didn't mind the pinch to keep the puck in, but he had a forward in the far corner wide open. Next time just push the puck around to him and keep the play going eh wot Aaron.....

Agree with ya Rats, Topper is fairly accurate with his critiquing of Hodgson, however, he's focusing on all the aspects of CoHo's game that Hodgson was NOT drafted for. He could battle more consistently along the boards, but at the same time, he's not afraid of the scrum in front of the net, and many of Topper's examples are when there is already a Canuck or two in the scrum and Hodgson drops down lower for a pass. It's called supporting the puck, and I like it because we see time and again where the puck squirts out of the scrum and we don't have a player in the open ice with time to make a play and it's just buried again along the boards.

As for the Lou belly flop. I stand corrected, he does hit the ice after the puck goes in. However, regardless of whether or not that puck even hits the net, Louie is still ending up on his belly on both those plays because he's starting that forward dive before the puck is released. My issue is the way that he comes across the bottom of the net, lunging out and falling forward like that instead of staying up on his knees and making himself big. I get what he's trying to do, take away the bottom of the net while moving his body out at the puck to eliminate some angle, it's what Hasek always did, eliminate the area where the highest percentage of pucks make there way into the net. Well, news flash Louie, Hasek played in the dead puck era where attacking forwards were working as hard (or harder) to stay on their skates while being pulled and hauled at by defending sticks, as they were trying to get the puck up and over the goalie. Now, if a defender's stick so much as passes through the ref's field of view of the attacker's hands/stick/mid section on a scoring chance, it's almost a guaranteed 2 minutes in the box. The majority of successful goalies right now are making themself look as big as Giguere circa 2002. Lou's not in the successful minority right now.

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Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Post by Potatoe1 » Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:04 pm

Topper wrote: Those of you who do not follow Spud's strawman will know I have consistently wished the best for Cody while never shying away or glossing over his short comings.

Orly
Topper wrote:As the refugees know, I have long seen the challenges in Cody's game. While true, he is a smart player, it is also true he can not skate. Yes he has been injured, but he has also spent an inordinate amount of time with skating coaches and still has no stride.

If he is to have any sort of an NHL career, he needs to work his thinking game to stay in the league. Unfortunately, what I have seen to date from him are nothing more than plays he can get away with in the OHL and AHL, but NHL defenders are smarter and quicker. he is a boy among men at the NHL level. A small, slow boy.

I'm not sure he'll make the adjustments and I'd prefer to cut bait while there is still life in the worm and possibility of upside.
Topper wrote:
The playoffs had me leaning more towards career AHL'r and thinking we best get some return for him while there is still an illusion of upside.
Topper wrote: With his speed, he'll trail our D on the rush.
Topper wrote:
I have yet to see any hint of flash from Cody at the NHL level. What I see are defenders swatting him about as he tries his nifty OHL stickwork.
Topper wrote: I owe an apology for my comments on Cody last game. I compared him to Ryan Shannon and Jason King and I owe those two an apology. Cody is nowhere near that good.
Clearly you are a fan....


Now we are getting somewhere, I would say he avoids the table all together and it limited his good effort to one zone, not three.
As ususal you are over the top in your criticism.

Clearly he is young, and not the strongest player on the ice, but i watched fairly closely last night and I did not see a player looking to avoid contact. Quite the opposite actually.

At this point I question if he belongs in the line up of a Cup contender. I have little tolerance for folks learning on the job with the stage the Canuck's are at this season and would put Cody in the same boat as Tanev. If Raymond is anything close to the form he was in last season, i rather have Hodgson leaning his skills in Chicago than have to put up with rookie mistakes.
Again you fixate on a handful of mistakes and ignore the bigger picture.

This is pretty much the definition of biased observation.

It is quite clear to basically everyone that you can not be objective with regard to this player.

Hodgson has better shot, scoring chance, and goal differentials then anyone in the bottom 6, yet you have claimed since game 1 that he should be in Chicago while inferior players like Weiss, Volpatti, and Ebbett soak up his ice time.

The playoffs are a different animal, and one can certainly speculate, but in the here and now it is utter ridiculous to claim that Hodgson has not been full value for the ice time he's been given.

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Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Post by herb » Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:24 pm

There's no doubt that the biggest complaints/areas for improvement with Hodgson are his physicality and defensive play. Hodgson is approximately an average sized forward at 6 foot and 185lbs (roughly the same size as the Sedins) so there's no reason why he can't become more physical. We have seen him go hard to the net quite a bit, which is promising for a young player.

The defensive side needs improvement, there's no question about that. I do think he has improved quite a bit in his short time here and this aspect of his game should improve with time and experience.

The thing is, he is a good playmaker with great vision and passing abilities and I think his shot is underrated at this point. His goal last night was a very nice play that was started and finished by Hodgson. The things that can't be taught (vision, intelligence, playmaking, work ethic, character, etc.) seem to be there. His skating has improved immensely so I see no reason why his physicality and defensive play won't also improve.

I know the time is now, but trading Hodgson at this point would be a tough pill to swallow. Jensen, and Hodgson are our only blue chip forward prospects.

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Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Post by Jovocop » Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:30 pm

Meds wrote: I nearly dry-heaved when I watched Rome try a toe drag along the boards on a pinch last night.....the result? He got pinned by 2 dmen against the boards and Nashville went the other way. Didn't mind the pinch to keep the puck in, but he had a forward in the far corner wide open. Next time just push the puck around to him and keep the play going eh wot Aaron.....
Rome, with the three goals, might be thinking he is the next Ehrhoff now... :evil:

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Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Post by Rumsfeld » Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:36 pm

herb wrote:There's no doubt that the biggest complaints/areas for improvement with Hodgson are his physicality and defensive play. Hodgson is approximately an average sized forward at 6 foot and 185lbs (roughly the same size as the Sedins) so there's no reason why he can't become more physical.
The Sedins are 6'2 and over 200 lbs. They are listed at 188 on one site but that was their rookie weight.

Hodgson has a small frame but he is built like a tank for his size. Some players just won't ever have much of a physical edge to their game, though. His back problems might have something to do with his unwillingness take hits along the wall.
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Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Post by tantalum » Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:40 pm

Topper wrote:[
Tant, nice of you to just throw number out there while asking others to check theirs. :D
The correction on my number didn't change my argument one iota.

The correction on the number you threw out torpedoed your thought.

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Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Post by Topper » Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:46 pm

Potatoe1 wrote:Clearly he is young, and not the strongest player on the ice, but i watched fairly closely last night and I did not see a player looking to avoid contact. Quite the opposite actually.
I provided specifics, can you? Zero hits.. Flyby don't count. You speak in generalities without backing evidence. I provided two incidents were he deliberately avoided contact, and not just from last night, but from the last several games. It has taken awhile, but several of you are now commenting on his softness.
Potatoe1 wrote:Again you fixate on a handful of mistakes and ignore the bigger picture.

This is pretty much the definition of biased observation.
An entire season working towards Stanley Cup contention is not the big picture? Sure thing there spudly.
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Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Post by Topper » Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:52 pm

tantalum wrote:
Topper wrote:[
Tant, nice of you to just throw number out there while asking others to check theirs. :D
The correction on my number didn't change my argument one iota.
The one that rookies don't should not be held accountable, yeah, right.
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Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Post by Potatoe1 » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:00 pm

Topper wrote: I provided specifics, can you? Zero hits.. Flyby don't count. You speak in generalities without backing evidence.
How does one provide evidence on a players "willingness" to take hits?

It's purely subjective and as most would agree, your objectivity with regard to this player is basically non-existent.

Last night I thought Cody spent a lot of time along the wall and I saw him go to the net on several occasions, what else should I be looking for?
An entire season working towards Stanley Cup contention is not the big picture? Sure thing there spudly.
The big picture is exactly why he should be playing.

In the short term there is no one more deserving of his ice time.

And in the long run he gets experience at the NHL level which will pay dividends down the road.

Even if he starts the Playoffs in the press box (doubtful but possible) there is almost no chance he doesn't end up playing during a potential cup run. Last year we used 16 forwards, our 13th forward played in almost half the games and our 13th through 16th combined for 26 games.

Hodgson will play regardless, and given his lack of NHL experience the more he plays between then and now the better he will likely perform.
Last edited by Potatoe1 on Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Post by herb » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:03 pm

Rumsfeld wrote: The Sedins are 6'2 and over 200 lbs. They are listed at 188 on one site but that was their rookie weight.

Hodgson has a small frame but he is built like a tank for his size. Some players just won't ever have much of a physical edge to their game, though. His back problems might have something to do with his unwillingness take hits along the wall.
Everywhere I looked has Henrik at 6'2" and 188lbs and Daniel at 6'1" or 6'2" and 187-190lbs. Who knows how accurate any of these are. I trust you though. ;)

Again, no idea how accurate this is, but here is an analysis of average NHL size in 2010. The average forward is apparently 6'1" and 202lbs.

http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2010/ ... ht-and-age

My point is that he isn't a particularly small player, therefore his size shouldn't limit his physicality. Some have suggested that Hodgson is a small player. The facts on the other hand seem to suggest that he is pretty much an average sized forward at 6'0" and 185lbs. At 21 years of age, he's likely to gain 10 or more pounds before too long.

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Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Post by Rumsfeld » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:08 pm

herb wrote:
Rumsfeld wrote: The Sedins are 6'2 and over 200 lbs. They are listed at 188 on one site but that was their rookie weight.

Hodgson has a small frame but he is built like a tank for his size. Some players just won't ever have much of a physical edge to their game, though. His back problems might have something to do with his unwillingness take hits along the wall.
Everywhere I looked has Henrik at 6'2" and 188lbs and Daniel at 6'1" or 6'2" and 187-190lbs. Who knows how accurate any of these are. I trust you though. ;)

Again, no idea how accurate this is, but here is an analysis of average NHL size in 2010. The average forward is apparently 6'1" and 202lbs.

http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2010/ ... ht-and-age

My point is that he isn't a particularly small player, therefore his size shouldn't limit his physicality. Some have suggested that Hodgson is a small player. The facts on the other hand seem to suggest that he is pretty much an average sized forward at 6'0" and 185lbs. At 21 years of age, he's likely to gain 10 or more pounds before too long.
Yeah, I could be wrong but I think a lot of the time they don't update those weights once players make the league.

I remember reading an article a few years ago about the twins bulking up to get to 205 over the summer. By the end of the season they both tend to look pretty guant though. Maybe a higher-calorie meal plan is in order once the season is in full swing.

I doubt Hodgson will be putting on much more weight. Unlike most players his age he looks to have already filled out as much as he can without getting too puffy.
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Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Post by tantalum » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:14 pm

Topper wrote: The one that rookies don't should not be held accountable, yeah, right.
And where did I say that? I never said rookies shouldn't be held accountable. People ought to give a rookie some leeway in evaluating play as they are learning the game whereas the veterans are not. There is such a thing as more accountable especially when it comes to experience. For some experienced players a mistake really is inexcusable (the Hansen lack of back check, Bieksa constantly getting beat 1-on-1). Also that the Hodgson mistake, as mentioned by others, wasn't the most egregious defensive error on the play let alone on the evening. Hodgson gets some leeway in my evaluation and in the coaches evaluation BUT he is also held accountable by the coaching staff through decreased ice time and line demotions when he isn't playing as well as he can. There isn't going to be a tangible punishment for each and every mistake but in the end he likely gets away with less than a veteran. I think people forget just how bad a guy like Hansen was 5-on-5 when he started...there was a reason he was in the doghouse.

The kid is a plus player. He isn't hurting the team at all. The numbers Pot put up on another board concerning chances for and against also show Hodgson in the positive. Essentially every stat shows him ahead of the remaining bottom 6 regulars and bottom 6 wannabes on BOTH sides of the puck. The only stat that doesn't say that is the Topper stat, and I'm not sure anyone knows what the criteria is for that stat other than "i said he would never be an NHLer so damn it all I'm going to nit pick and explode inconsequential things up as if they matter in the grand scheme of things".
Last edited by tantalum on Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Post by BladesofSteel » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:21 pm

Rumsfeld wrote:
Topper wrote:Rummy - Elite?, hyperbole?
When it comes to passing I think he has elite potential, yeah. He makes dishes on a regular basis that very few NHL players can make. The rest of his game has a ways to go for sure.

I'd like to see him get open to fire it a bit more, he has a good shot -- but his linemates aren't exactly high-level playmakers.
+1

Agree wholeheartedly Rummy.

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Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Post by Topper » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:34 pm

Potatoe1 wrote:Last night I thought Cody spent a lot of time along the wall and I saw him go to the net on several occasions, what else should I be looking for?
When? I was able to nail my examples down to the shift. Again, flybys don't count.

Meds, the 1st example I mentioned, Cody and the other canuck were pretty much rubbing butt cheeks as Cody got to the play and turned away. The second example was a loose puck in the nuetral zone, Cody could have made a play for it if he was willing, but instead faded off, giving up on the puck and the allowing the Preds to get the puck into Vancouver's zone
Potatoe1 wrote:Again you fixate on a handful of mistakes and ignore the bigger picture.
An entire season working towards Stanley Cup contention is not the big picture? Sure thing there spudly.
The big picture is exactly why he should be playing.
I'll stick with my view that dealing with mistakes by coddled rookies should not be part of the big picture this season. It was the same reasoning for Lapierre's acquisition last season.

20 games in and folks are already christening him the next Adam Oates. Wow. What is the comparable for RNH?
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Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Post by Rumsfeld » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:43 pm

Unless my weed-addled memory is failing me once again and Adam Oates was a career second-line center who was good for 40-50 assists a year in his prime, I don't think there have been any comparisons that would put him in that territory. Barring serious injury (the kid is pretty small), Hopkins looks like he will become a perennial All-Star and 100+ point player.

Some of your observations are sound ones Topps, but I think at this point his offensive contributions are far outweighing his defensive inadequacies. Defense can be taught pretty quickly and it will be. He won't learn to play a two-way NHL game in the AHL because his opposition will be slower, smaller and weaker. He's already made some improvements away from the puck this season.

As an aside, I'd like to see Cody employ the walk-out slapper from the half-boards more often on the PP. He's always looking for the pass, and rightly so given his propensity for making sweet plays, but the kid can wire it.
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