GDT: Nov 13: Grabner @ Ballard 6:00 SPac

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Re: GDT: Nov 13: Grabner @ Ballard 6:00 SPac

Postby Topper » Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:05 pm

Listercat wrote:Christ you are obtuse Pot !!

:D :D :D

I'd like to know how many of those Van PP goals were set up by Raymond drawing the penalty.

Don't worry Lister, Spud will use the stats he likes and make up ones if he needs more.
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Re: GDT: Nov 13: Grabner @ Ballard 6:00 SPac

Postby Potatoe1 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:19 pm

Topper wrote:
Listercat wrote:Christ you are obtuse Pot !!

:D :D :D

I'd like to know how many of those Van PP goals were set up by Raymond drawing the penalty.

Don't worry Lister, Spud will use the stats he likes and make up ones if he needs more.


Yeah like GOALS...

What a stretch....
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Re: GDT: Nov 13: Grabner @ Ballard 6:00 SPac

Postby Jovocop » Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:21 pm

RoyalDude wrote:The bottom-line is, Booth is way overpaid and so we are not getting good value. The guy isn't that good. If he was the next coming of Bill Guerin like some of you Booth-man-crushers seem to think, the Panthers wouldn't have given up on him and tossed in a 3rd round pick for the services of the oft-injured old-man Samuelsson for the remainder of the year and that has-been old-man coming off knee surgery - Sturm.

I see nothing but the cons of what were told about the pros and cons of David Booth. Can't pass if his life depended on it cause he puts the blinders on like no player I have seen before, he is the king of 'give-aways, looks completely loss without the puck, has zero anticipation of play and can't read a cycle for the life of him. Absolutely horrible on defense. Where is the good? Raymond is way more dynamic of a player, more skill set on the offensive side of the game, plays both ends of the rink real well and is cheaper. Way more plus's in Raymonds game than that of Booth.


RD, can you just be patient for once?? It's only 10 games. Do you remember both Lapierre and Higgins did not play well after being traded to the Canucks?? Players need time to adjust to new system. Do you remember the Sedins when they first came to North America?? If you were MG, the Canucks would be without any players but draft picks...
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Re: GDT: Nov 13: Grabner @ Ballard 6:00 SPac

Postby LotusBlossom » Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:38 pm

I actually really like David Booth. There is a reason he is a highly touted young player. He's tenacious and loves to shoot. Granted I do agree his contract is a little steep presently, but that could become good value down the road (I believe it's four years long).

Finding the right fit takes a little time, certainly more than 10 games. I'm not sure why there is much negativity about Booth when in reality many of us haven't watched him.

I was unfortunately living out east and managed to watch more than just a few games that involved Booth, and I think the Canucks have a possible gold mine. Development is key and Brown has a good reputation of bringing out people's offensive game. Take a good look at a guy like Burrows.
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Re: GDT: Nov 13: Grabner @ Ballard 6:00 SPac

Postby CFP! » Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:17 pm

LotusBlossom wrote: Development is key and Brown has a good reputation of bringing out people's offensive game. Take a good look at a guy like Burrows.


Your not crediting Brown with Burrows success, are you?

Because the only credit of Burr's O-game needs to go to his roller hockey coach. :lol:
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Re: GDT: Nov 13: Grabner @ Ballard 6:00 SPac

Postby dhabums » Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:26 pm

Potatoe1 wrote:Raymond simply didn't score enough, I have no idea why you are trying to defend him on this...


It's a slow week?
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Re: GDT: Nov 13: Grabner @ Ballard 6:00 SPac

Postby Meds » Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:45 am

Bottom line on Raymond is that he would be an elite 3rd line winger on any team, including ours.

He would be a somewhat decent 2nd line winger on many teams, but not ours.

If he is willing to play hard then yes, he is of use here and will see some minutes on the 2nd line. Last year he rarely drove the net, he played soft hockey until Vigneault demoted him, then he played his way back up to the 2nd line. He had about as much finish as Hansen most of the time, and how many games did he go without a goal? Was it something like 19? Then he gets a goal, but only because a point shot bounced off his body as he skated in front of the net (for a change), then he went something like another 8 games with nothing.

I just don't see where Raymond is going to fit in.....

Raymond is faster than Booth and Higgins, but half as strong, and drives the net half as often. He also has less of a shot.

Raymond is a bit stronger than Hodgson, but with half the puck-smarts and half the hands.

He is a bit faster than Hansen, but only matches Hansen's tenacity and effort half of the time.

Raymond rarely uses a wrist shot, he rarely beats an opponent with stick-work, he is often on his ass in front of the net.

His only strength is is speed. When he uses that to forecheck, to backcheck, or to attack the net, he is a good asset. When he goes hard with an opponent chasing him and draws a penalty, he is an asset. When he takes a night off, he's useless.

So can someone tell me where he fits in the current lineup other than to replace Weiss.....
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Re: GDT: Nov 13: Grabner @ Ballard 6:00 SPac

Postby Uncle dans leg » Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:44 am

Meds wrote:Bottom line on Raymond is that he would be an elite 3rd line winger on any team, including ours.

He would be a somewhat decent 2nd line winger on many teams, but not ours.

If he is willing to play hard then yes, he is of use here and will see some minutes on the 2nd line. Last year he rarely drove the net, he played soft hockey until Vigneault demoted him, then he played his way back up to the 2nd line. He had about as much finish as Hansen most of the time, and how many games did he go without a goal? Was it something like 19? Then he gets a goal, but only because a point shot bounced off his body as he skated in front of the net (for a change), then he went something like another 8 games with nothing.

I just don't see where Raymond is going to fit in.....

Raymond is faster than Booth and Higgins, but half as strong, and drives the net half as often. He also has less of a shot.

Raymond is a bit stronger than Hodgson, but with half the puck-smarts and half the hands.

He is a bit faster than Hansen, but only matches Hansen's tenacity and effort half of the time.

Raymond rarely uses a wrist shot, he rarely beats an opponent with stick-work, he is often on his ass in front of the net.

His only strength is is speed. When he uses that to forecheck, to backcheck, or to attack the net, he is a good asset. When he goes hard with an opponent chasing him and draws a penalty, he is an asset. When he takes a night off, he's useless.

So can someone tell me where he fits in the current lineup other than to replace Weiss.....

I dont think MayRay is as bad as you're making him out to be here. Maybe he's no power forward but he was definitely a key part of last years presidents trophy winner as well as runner up to the Stanley Cup.
Those are lofty accomplishments and we may never see a team like that again around these parts.
When Raymond is on he creates time and space for his line mates. He has a wicked shot and compliments Kesler pretty damn well as we know. When he's healthy I would bet he slides back onto Keslers line and I wouldn't be suprised if thats when we see Kes get his game back.
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Re: GDT: Nov 13: Grabner @ Ballard 6:00 SPac

Postby ukcanuck » Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:40 am

Uncle dans leg wrote:I dont think MayRay is as bad as you're making him out to be here. Maybe he's no power forward but he was definitely a key part of last years presidents trophy winner as well as runner up to the Stanley Cup.
Those are lofty accomplishments and we may never see a team like that again around these parts.
When Raymond is on he creates time and space for his line mates. He has a wicked shot and compliments Kesler pretty damn well as we know. When he's healthy I would bet he slides back onto Keslers line and I wouldn't be suprised if thats when we see Kes get his game back.


you just might be on to something with that thought. I hope so
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Re: GDT: Nov 13: Grabner @ Ballard 6:00 SPac

Postby BladesofSteel » Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:24 am

To be fair, it should be pointed out that one of the key factors to Raymond not taking another step in his development last season was due to a lingering hand injury he suffered in December. It was more than evident upon his return that the broken thumb he endured effected both his stick-handling and his wrist shot. He wasn't the same for the remainder of the season following his return in January.
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Re: GDT: Nov 13: Grabner @ Ballard 6:00 SPac

Postby tantalum » Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:35 am

As pointed out above Raymond was hurt for the majority of the year last year that it undoubtedly affected his play (especially when it came to traffic areas).

However, Raymond will fit on ANY team including the canucks no matter what sort of depth a team may have. Why? Because quite simply he is arguably the best defensive winger the team has,he's very good on the PK, can carry the puck up ice and get on on the forecheck. Remember this is the best defensive winger (perhaps behind Burrows) on the best defensive team in the league last year. Tack on that the kid, in what everyone wants to call a horrible year, was on a 18G and 46 Point pace during the regular season. Mason Raymond belongs on any team in the league and will get good minutes no matter where he is.

Certainly he needs to work on his game and needs to figure out how to take a step in the playoffs (with several other canucks) but I think people forget he is only 26 years old (september birthday). He has room to improve and has the time to do so. Not that I expect him to be a 30 goal scorer or anything but I do think he will be a consistent 20 goal scorer that you can play in any situation. That assumes his recovery goes well. And speaking of which I hope people aren't too quick to judge when he returns...this injury is going to take a long long time to bounce back from. He likely won't have his game going full tilt until NEXT season.
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Re: GDT: Nov 13: Grabner @ Ballard 6:00 SPac

Postby Per » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:21 am

BladesofSteel wrote:To be fair, it should be pointed out that one of the key factors to Raymond not taking another step in his development last season was due to a lingering hand injury he suffered in December. It was more than evident upon his return that the broken thumb he endured effected both his stick-handling and his wrist shot. He wasn't the same for the remainder of the season following his return in January.

They should have sent him to the same doctor that fixed Rome's broken finger! :wink:
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Re: GDT: Nov 13: Grabner @ Ballard 6:00 SPac

Postby Potatoe1 » Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:49 am

Meds wrote:
I just don't see where Raymond is going to fit in.....

So can someone tell me where he fits in the current lineup other than to replace Weiss.....


Raymond can play both Wings and basically on any line. He can even play at center if required.

He will most likely start on the 4th line and be worked in slowly. Once he is back in the swing of things there are a number of ways the Canucks can go but Raymond almost certainly ends up in the top9.

Having "extra" top 9 forwards is a positive not a negative. In fact you probably need at least 11 guys who can play top9 if you want to win a cup.
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Re: GDT: Nov 13: Grabner @ Ballard 6:00 SPac

Postby Meds » Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:22 pm

Uncle dans leg wrote:I dont think MayRay is as bad as you're making him out to be here. Maybe he's no power forward but he was definitely a key part of last years presidents trophy winner as well as runner up to the Stanley Cup.


By "key part", do you mean with his 39 regular season points and his 8 playoff points?

And I would never say that Raymond has a "wicked shot". His slapshot is fairly hard, but not spectacularly so, and always bullseyeing the goalie's logo. His wrist shot is, well we've never really seen it.....

I agree with Pot about him fitting in the top 9, and also that it is a plus and not a minus. I'm fine with that, so long as AV makes him earn his minutes, if he's outplaying Booth or Higgins, slot him in, if he's not, sit him. That goes for any player, Vigneault's love affair with players like Malhotra, Rome, and Luongo, is the thing that aggravates me the most, and I suppose it is fair to say that I take it out on the player who is slumping rather than the coach who is more concerned about his boy than about the win.
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Re: GDT: Nov 13: Grabner @ Ballard 6:00 SPac

Postby Potatoe1 » Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:48 pm

Meds wrote:
I agree with Pot about him fitting in the top 9, and also that it is a plus and not a minus. I'm fine with that, so long as AV makes him earn his minutes, if he's outplaying Booth or Higgins, slot him in, if he's not, sit him.


Any of our current top9 could be bumped for Raymond, who as noted can play both sides.

Kes, Burows and the Twins are obviously not going to drop, but Hansen could play on the 4th, as could Lappy or Hodgson.

As for playing favorites I totally agree. Manny playing on the 3rd line over Lappy was a total joke.
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