The case for statehood

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The case for statehood

Postby Per » Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:16 am

A good summary of the dilemmas surrounding the Palestinian bid for statehood at the UN:
http://www.economist.com/blogs/democrac ... tatehood-0

The Israeli desire to make the Palestinian state as weak as possible seems to me to be counterproductive. A water-starved bantustan of a neighbour will fail to develop a viable economy, and will hence remain corrupt, donor-dependent and undemocratic; Israeli religious settlements transecting its territory will provide a focus of nationalist bitterness, fostering terrorism. Nobody wants to live next to Afghanistan. (Though, to be fair, it's not clear the Israelis have a choice. The Palestinian state is likely to be a mess regardless.) But within the Israeli frame, it still seems to me that accepting a UN vote to recognise the Palestinian state, with borders to be determined later, would be a shrewd move. In many ways, it would echo the Israeli strategy in 1947, when it accepted a UN partition plan it didn't like, in the expectation that the real borders would be set by whoever was strongest on the ground—as, indeed, they were. The Arabs rejected the UN vote, and took decades to see their mistake.
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Re: The case for statehood

Postby Rumsfeld » Wed Sep 21, 2011 1:09 pm

The Arabs rejected the UN vote, and took decades to see their mistake.


Imagine that. Arabs taking decades to see their mistakes.
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Re: The case for statehood

Postby Per » Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:07 pm

Rumsfeld wrote:
The Arabs rejected the UN vote, and took decades to see their mistake.


Imagine that. Arabs taking decades to see their mistakes.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPYcr_Q9 ... ata_player
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Re: The case for statehood

Postby Per » Tue Oct 04, 2011 12:10 am

From the Economist:
In truth, Israel will be safer when a proper Palestinian state has been consolidated. That is a point that too few Israelis and their American supporters appreciate. This newspaper has argued steadfastly for the right of Israel to exist. We abhor the creeping delegitimisation and demonisation of Israel. But we also believe that the Palestinians deserve a state of their own. These two beliefs are entirely compatible. By his intransigence Mr Netanyahu has played into the hands of those who would destroy Israel. In blocking any Palestinian aspirations at the UN, America is helping extremists on both sides.


http://www.economist.com/node/21530117
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Re: The case for statehood part one

Postby damonberryman » Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:22 am

Due to the weight of the Jewish world on the media, I am not certain the Palistinians do not get anything close to a fair shake image-wise. That is not a criticism of Jews. They do what they need to do. I am not in the Judgement business and even if I was, how do you judge a group of people who were so recently subjected to genocide? Any response must seem reasonable to folks whose families were subjected to such horror. However, this still leaves the Palistinians without fair representation. The issue is incredibly complicated so I can only deal with it from a limited POV.

The Israelis deserve to have their existence ratified by the Arab world. Until that happens I do not think anything will be done. the recent move by Abbas was brilliant as it has forced countries to take a side. To no ones surpise the US and Canada are lining up behind Israel. Culturally it makes sense as the Israelis are very Western in their thinking, and we are comfortable with them. The Arab side creates its own bad press with what we see as crazed beliefs. I got to say I am amused by a nation of Christians in the States calling anyone out on religious zealotry, but there you go.

Palestine was primarily Arab for a long time. So was Jeruselam (SP) and yet the Israelis refer to it as given to them by God. I wish they would come up with another argument as this one is suspect. Many Arab families lost their ancestral homes in the takeover. The most educated group of Arabbs in the world has been reduced to their own diaspora, living everywhere in the world, with many of those left behind ending up in camps which are breeding grounds for terrorism. No one can ever accuse the universe of not being ironic.


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Re: The case for statehood part two

Postby damonberryman » Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:31 am

Have to split it up. When i get to the bottom of the field it starts to shake, making it tough to write.

With the current power in Israel resting with the Likud party, the settlements of orthodox jews continues. I admit to being put off seeing all these pale Eastern Europeon looking Jews with red or light hair standing against a desert background while claiming divine right. Here is some of my prejudice. I worked with Arabs for two years in Yemen and Oman. I found them to be nothing like the way they are portrayed in the media. I enjoyed the years very much and am aware of many of the early Arab contributions to our world.

Whenever people try and justify the Israeli position they point out how the desert has become a garden due to the jews. True. However, do we want the desert to be a garden? I dunno. there are topics in life that make me glad i do not have to come up with the absolute answer. Abortion, religion and Israel are right at the top.

I appreciate this topic very much
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Re: The case for statehood

Postby Vpete » Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:29 am

Could we not just give the Palestinians what left of Iraq?
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Re: The case for statehood

Postby Per » Wed Oct 05, 2011 11:10 am

Vpete wrote:Could we not just give the Palestinians what left of Iraq?

Nah, they'd have to get in line behind the Kurds.
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Re: The case for statehood

Postby Vpete » Wed Oct 05, 2011 11:24 am

Per wrote:
Vpete wrote:Could we not just give the Palestinians what left of Iraq?

Nah, they'd have to get in line behind the Kurds.


What about parts of Afghanistan?
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Re: The case for statehood part one

Postby Strangelove » Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:40 pm

damonberryman wrote:Palestine was primarily Arab for a long time. So was Jeruselam (SP) and yet the Israelis refer to it as given to them by God. I wish they would come up with another argument as this one is suspect.


The Israelites took Jerusalem from the non-arabic Jebusites circa 1000 BC

(before "arab" became a classification of peoples).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jebusites

Many Palestinian Arabs, including such prominent figures as Yasir Arafat and Faisal Husseini, have claimed that Palestinians descended from the Jebusites. This modern claim has appeared in the Palestinian Encyclopedia and in Palestinian Authority school textbooks but lacks support in the scholarly community.

It is unknown what ultimately became of these Jebusites, but it seems logical that they were assimilated by the Israelites.


BTW Islam was founded in 622 AD... 1622 years after the Israelites took Jerusalem.
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Re: The case for statehood part one

Postby Per » Thu Oct 06, 2011 6:58 am

Strangelove wrote:
damonberryman wrote:Palestine was primarily Arab for a long time. So was Jeruselam (SP) and yet the Israelis refer to it as given to them by God. I wish they would come up with another argument as this one is suspect.


The Israelites took Jerusalem from the non-arabic Jebusites circa 1000 BC

(before "arab" became a classification of peoples).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jebusites

Many Palestinian Arabs, including such prominent figures as Yasir Arafat and Faisal Husseini, have claimed that Palestinians descended from the Jebusites. This modern claim has appeared in the Palestinian Encyclopedia and in Palestinian Authority school textbooks but lacks support in the scholarly community.

It is unknown what ultimately became of these Jebusites, but it seems logical that they were assimilated by the Israelites.


BTW Islam was founded in 622 AD... 1622 years after the Israelites took Jerusalem.

"Palestinians" is not really an ethnic group, but a collective name for the people living in Palestine prior to the creation of Israel in 1948.

I'm sure some Palestinians may have traces of Jebusite blood in their veins, as well as Philistine, Samarian, Hettite, Assyrian, Sumerian, Nabatean, Roman, Greek, Aramaic, Kaananite, Bedouine, Arab, etc, but my guess is that they're mostly of Jewish descent.

I mean, really, wars tend to create a lot of refugees, but when did you ever hear of a war resulting that the entire population left the area? The Roman destruction of Jerusalem led to the Diaspora, with scores of people from Judea, Samaria and Israel settling throughout Europe and the Middle East. But I'm certain that at least as many must have stayed put and survived by being submissive to their rulers. They became Romanised, forcibly baptised by Crusaders, and eventually Islamified. And during the long Muslim rule of the region, they switched from speaking Aramaic (a Semitic language closely related to both Hebrew and Arabic, the dominant language in the area in Roman times, and the maternal tongue of Jesus) to it’s cousin Arabic. And Abraham ben Moshe became Ibrahim bin Moussad and started greeting his neighbours with a friendly “saalam aleikum” instead of the equally friendly “shalom aleichim”. Same same but different.

Genetic studies do in fact confirm this very logical assumption:
In recent years, many genetic surveys have suggested that, at least paternally, most of the various Jewish ethnic divisions and the Palestinians – and in some cases other Levantines – are genetically closer to each other than the Palestinians or European Jews to non-Jewish Europeans.[114]
One DNA study by Nebel found genetic evidence in support of historical records that "part, or perhaps the majority" of Muslim Palestinians descend from "local inhabitants, mainly Christians and Jews, who had converted after the Islamic conquest in the seventh century AD".[115] They also found substantial genetic overlap between Muslim Palestinians and Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews, though with some significant differences that might be explainable by the geographical isolation of the Jews or by immigration of Arab tribes in the first millennium.[115]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinia ... ic_studies

But just like Oedipus didn’t recognise his parents and ended up slaying his father, the Jews returning to the region in the 19th-21th century and the Islamified Jews left behind, have not recognised their long lost cousins when they’ve met again.
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Re: The case for statehood

Postby Per » Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:44 am

Sarkozy and Obama are fed up with Netanyahu.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/wor ... le2229048/

Not that it should be a surprise to anyone. Tremendously frustrating though that people immediately jump to the conclusion that it mirrors anti-Israeli feelings, when in fact Sarkozy is probably the most pro-Israeli leader France has ever had. It's not Israel he dislikes, it's that buffoon Netanyahu. A man who is willing to release 1000 enprisoned Palestinians in exchange for one Israeli soldier held by Hamas, just to make sure to strengthen Hamas as they seem to be losing ground among Palestinian voters. I'm convinced Netanyahu wants Hamas to win the elections so that he will not have to negotiate.

And another great column from the Economist:
http://www.economist.com/node/21536644
Last edited by Per on Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The case for statehood

Postby damonberryman » Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:20 pm

The Economist paints a very scary picture. Were the Israelis to bomb Iran we would be in for interesting times. It is a quandry for all but mostly for the Israelis. The President of Iran has come out and called for the destruction of Israel and the death of its people. I would like to think, here in the safe (for now) West that it is rhetoric. After the last few decades I am not so certain. I have become convinced that fanatics who presume to translate the will of the universe through the mouth of their gods mean exactly what they say. Jews from NYC move into brand new homes in the desert and say it is their right. Russian Jews are the next door neighbour. What did Yeats say? "The worst are full of passionate intensity while the best lack all conviction'. That is about it. However, the fools who speak for the other side have promised destruction and who is to say with their petro dollars that they cannot buy a bomb? The Jews made a big mistake once counting on the world to stand up and do the right thing. They would be stupid indeed to stand by and do nothing. Iran should have nuclear power if they need it. However, people who say the stuff they say should be not allowed to have weapons that are nuclear. I have no dog in this fight except doing the right thing. Hopefully the UN will not allow Iran to develop them. If the UN does not act the Israeli have to. They owe it to themselves and their future. But oh my. Talk about a tragedy.
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Re: The case for statehood

Postby Strangelove » Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:25 pm

Per wrote:Not that it should be a surprise to anyone.


Nope, like the article says: "Obama & Netanyahu have what is often regarded as the worst relations between an American president and the head of the Jewish state since its founding in 1948."

But hey we knew going in Obama leaves much to be desired where it comes to foreign relations.

Per wrote:Tremendously frustrating though that people immediately jump to the conclusion that it mirrors anti_Israeli feelings, when in fact Sarkozy is probably the most pro-Israeli leader France has ever had.


That's not saying much given the fact France has pretty much been considered anti-Israel for the past 44 years!

Many doubt Sarkozy's sincerity in regards to Israel and this recent gaff is not going to help.

Per wrote:It's not Israel he dislikes, it's that buffoon Netanyahu. A man who is willing to release 1000 enprisoned Palestinians in exchange for one ISraeli soldier held by Hamas just to make sure to strengthen Hamas as they seem to be losing ground among Palestinian voters. I'm convinced Netanyahu wants Hamas to win the elections so that he will not have to negotiate.


So...

Netanyahu is a buffoon for releasing 1000 imprisoned Palestinians.

AND

Netanyahu is an evil genius for releasing 1000 imprisoned Palestinians.

Ummmm wotever Per.... :drink:
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Re: The case for statehood

Postby Strangelove » Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:28 pm

damonberryman wrote:I have no dog in this fight


Everybody has a dog in a fight having the potential to spark WWIII.

We're talking NUKES here buddy! :thumbs:
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