From Bountiful to Ponoka

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Re: From Bountiful to Ponoka

Postby Topper » Wed Nov 02, 2011 10:22 am

My favourite from last nights game thread. Among the usual fire the coach/GM, blow it up, trade everyone, it is the ref's fault, it is TSN's fault ..... was this gem.

Maybe B Sutter's system doesn't fit well to Iginla's style play. It is like Sutter's system do not take advantage of Iginla's strengths.
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Re: From Bountiful to Ponoka

Postby tantalum » Wed Nov 02, 2011 10:29 am

Well it doesn't.

Sutter expects his players to backcheck and play hard in all three zones. One of Iginla's strengths is only playing in one zone.

Sutter expects his team to come out and play hard every shift. Iginla not only wants to pick which shifts he plays hard but which game and which month.

etc etc etc Iginla is a support player at this point in his career. A very good one. He isn't a go to guy anymore.
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Re: From Bountiful to Ponoka

Postby tantalum » Wed Nov 02, 2011 10:43 am

There is nothing wrong with rebuilding and having a changing of the guard for a year maybe two. I'd respect the Flames a hell of a lot more if they pulled the plug and decided to get with the program and build a truly competitive team. They have enough assets to move that it could be a very quick rebuild.

Thing is SOME of the Flames owners only really care about making a bit of money and don't much care about success. They are not passionate about having a winner, they just don't want a complete loser. That is an attitude I also can't respect. Until the directive comes from on high that they want a winner and are willing to take a hit for a year or two I think there is a very good chance that this is what Flames fans are going to get year after year. Oh sure they will have boatloads of cash to spend next year to hear people talk of it but they through cash at a UFA this year and nothing happened. Of course they have about 21 mil in cap space next year and will need to replace 11 UFAs. Yes 11. And they need upgrades. Essentially with that $21 mil they need to find a #1C, good #3D, good #4D, #5D, #6D, a second line, a third/fourth line. I see the first 3 things on that list taking up a good $14 million of that $21 mil (6-7 mil for a center, 2 x 3.5-4 mil for defenders), and we still haven't even thought about the two other lines they need up front or bottom pairing or depth when injuries hit etc etc. I don't think the cap situation for the Flames is all that rosy in the summer UNLESS they do a good job unloading guys for assets during the course of the season.

If I were a Flames fan, which I am definitely not, I'd be scared to death of the team hanging around 7-11th spot in the standings at deadline day and having Feaster add bodies instead of shipping them out.

Now if they can find someone to take Bouwmeester and frankly at this point I think that is an impossible contract to unload they may still be in cap hell next season. Now if they unload Iginla, Kiprusoff, Bourque, and Bouwmeester for some really good young assets THEN they will have ample cap space going forward. But that is up to the owners and right now not enough of them care (they were deadlocked for quite some time on removing Sutter. Some wanted it done far earlier and the compromise was bringing in Feaster as his assistant).
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Re: From Bountiful to Ponoka

Postby ukcanuck » Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:13 pm

tantalum wrote:Thing is SOME of the Flames owners only really care about making a bit of money and don't much care about success. .


doesn't it sound like Toronto west? knowing that they have a captive market who will buy tickets as long as there is a chance to make the playoffs...
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Re: From Bountiful to Ponoka

Postby tantalum » Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:19 pm

Yep. From what I understand (and keep in mind this is second and third hand info...though previous info has been correct and even confirmed by some media), there is among the owners some that peg the value of their ownership in the inevitable sale of their share of the team. They don't care about the on ice product much beyond just making sure they aren't losing money year to year.
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Re: From Bountiful to Ponoka

Postby BCExpat » Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:16 pm

Well, I don't think the Ownership is really to blame here. They are spending up to the cap on the team, wouldn't it make sense to be able to ice a team that is competitive? I blame the previous manager for the Flames current problems. The Ownership put far too much trust in Sutter (based on early success, including obtaining Kipper). If anything - that is what the Ownership is guilty of. They gave him a bit of slack when he made a couple of bad moves. Then he made more bad moves and the team was already in dire straits. Sutter should have been fired a year before he was finally given the boot.

I'm sure the Ownership knows that they have to go through a re-build at some point. The question is how do you go about that, with the current player contracts, NMCs, etc. This is no easy fix for anyone. The Ownership has to give Feaster time to do this. We'll have a much clearer picture at the end of this season, when several of the bad contracts come off the books. Sure, they will still have Stajan and JBo, but they will have a lot more room to make the changes required.

After this season, I can't see Feaster trying to fix the current roster by adding pieces. As Tantalum noted in his post, I fear what Feaster might do if this team is on the bubble to make the playoffs. At this point, it's much better overall for the Flames if they are out of it by trade deadline. Then I could see Iggy and/or Kipper being moved and the rebuild going into full swing.
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Re: From Bountiful to Ponoka

Postby tantalum » Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:49 pm

BCExpat wrote:Well, I don't think the Ownership is really to blame here. They are spending up to the cap on the team, wouldn't it make sense to be able to ice a team that is competitive? I blame the previous manager for the Flames current problems. The Ownership put far too much trust in Sutter (based on early success, including obtaining Kipper). If anything - that is what the Ownership is guilty of. They gave him a bit of slack when he made a couple of bad moves. Then he made more bad moves and the team was already in dire straits. Sutter should have been fired a year before he was finally given the boot.

I'm sure the Ownership knows that they have to go through a re-build at some point. The question is how do you go about that, with the current player contracts, NMCs, etc. This is no easy fix for anyone. The Ownership has to give Feaster time to do this. We'll have a much clearer picture at the end of this season, when several of the bad contracts come off the books. Sure, they will still have Stajan and JBo, but they will have a lot more room to make the changes required.

After this season, I can't see Feaster trying to fix the current roster by adding pieces. As Tantalum noted in his post, I fear what Feaster might do if this team is on the bubble to make the playoffs. At this point, it's much better overall for the Flames if they are out of it by trade deadline. Then I could see Iggy and/or Kipper being moved and the rebuild going into full swing.


Ownership is to blame on some level. One they are to blame for not removing Sutter earlier. They were deadlocked and instead compromised with the Feaster as assistant thing.

They also give the direction to ken King and his direction is to be competitive and not suck really bad and rebuild unless he is flat out lying (which he may be).

Yes they spend to the cap and the failures of the GM certainly can't be ignored but some of this stuff does seem to stem from the very top (and no Eric Francis isn't a source).
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Re: From Bountiful to Ponoka

Postby Hockey Widow » Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:09 pm

Moving Iginla before his contract is up is the smartest thing to do. Is this is last year or does he have one more? He has a NMC so the options on where to move him will be limited but you have to believe that at deadline day if he is beginning to produce again that he will be in high demand for the contenders. Kipper maybe not only because a true contender will in all likelihood already have good goaltending. The time to move Kipper was this past summer so a new team could extend him before he became UFA. So there may be a market for him at the deadline but I don't see the return for him as being as high as for Iginla.

A productive Iginla would be welcomed on my team to ride shotgun with Kesler and Booth. We just won't part with the assets to get him. He is not a MG type of acquisition and believe me this is not a complaint.
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Re: From Bountiful to Ponoka

Postby mathonwy » Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:33 am

Hockey Widow wrote:Moving Iginla before his contract is up is the smartest thing to do. Is this is last year or does he have one more? He has a NMC so the options on where to move him will be limited but you have to believe that at deadline day if he is beginning to produce again that he will be in high demand for the contenders. Kipper maybe not only because a true contender will in all likelihood already have good goaltending. The time to move Kipper was this past summer so a new team could extend him before he became UFA. So there may be a market for him at the deadline but I don't see the return for him as being as high as for Iginla.

A productive Iginla would be welcomed on my team to ride shotgun with Kesler and Booth. We just won't part with the assets to get him. He is not a MG type of acquisition and believe me this is not a complaint.

I completely and totally agree with this and I think Dutter should have took the grenade and done it before he stepped down.

Now its on Feaster to be the bad guy and do it. Iggy will never do it because loyalty actually means something to him.

We all hate the Flames but we like and respect Iggy. After the Nucks win the grail back-to-back, I wouldn't mind seeing Iggy hoist the cup in say... Toronto. Hahhahah... yeah.. that would be fucking hilarious. Iggy and Phaneuf winning the cup with the Laughs. Oh.. sweet sweet irony.

Or Buffalo with Reghr. Either way , fuck you Flames!!

:lol:
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Re: From Bountiful to Ponoka

Postby BCExpat » Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:09 pm

mathonwy wrote:
Hockey Widow wrote:Moving Iginla before his contract is up is the smartest thing to do. Is this is last year or does he have one more? He has a NMC so the options on where to move him will be limited but you have to believe that at deadline day if he is beginning to produce again that he will be in high demand for the contenders. Kipper maybe not only because a true contender will in all likelihood already have good goaltending. The time to move Kipper was this past summer so a new team could extend him before he became UFA. So there may be a market for him at the deadline but I don't see the return for him as being as high as for Iginla.

A productive Iginla would be welcomed on my team to ride shotgun with Kesler and Booth. We just won't part with the assets to get him. He is not a MG type of acquisition and believe me this is not a complaint.

I completely and totally agree with this and I think Dutter should have took the grenade and done it before he stepped down.

Now its on Feaster to be the bad guy and do it. Iggy will never do it because loyalty actually means something to him.

We all hate the Flames but we like and respect Iggy. After the Nucks win the grail back-to-back, I wouldn't mind seeing Iggy hoist the cup in say... Toronto. Hahhahah... yeah.. that would be fucking hilarious. Iggy and Phaneuf winning the cup with the Laughs. Oh.. sweet sweet irony.

Or Buffalo with Reghr. Either way , fuck you Flames!!

:lol:



Or even worse - Iggy winning it with Hall, RNH, Eberle, etc., in Edmonton :shock:
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Re: From Bountiful to Ponoka

Postby Uncle dans leg » Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:18 pm

So I was driving around this afternoon here(Calgary) listening to the fan960 as they discus whether to rebuild, retool or whatever.
I got quite a kick out of how highly they rated Bourque's trade value. They seem to think he could fetch a couple of top prospects. Unbelievable. They couldn't even get that for Phaneuf for christs sake.
Also was quite interested in how they perceive the solutions to the teams problems. I heard the guy saying they could retool and make another run. I just can't see it. They need to gut it down to the foundation and start completely over in my opinion.
Also pretty amazing is how tolerant they seem about Iginla. He's following Naslunds career path almost to a T but with waaay less criticism. Neither has won much for his team yet JI escapes the microscope so easily somehow.
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Re: From Bountiful to Ponoka

Postby rats19 » Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:41 pm

Uncle dans leg wrote:So I was driving around this afternoon here(Calgary) listening to the fan960 as they discus whether to rebuild, retool or whatever.
I got quite a kick out of how highly they rated Bourque's trade value. They seem to think he could fetch a couple of top prospects. Unbelievable. They couldn't even get that for Phaneuf for christs sake.
Also was quite interested in how they perceive the solutions to the teams problems. I heard the guy saying they could retool and make another run. I just can't see it. They need to gut it down to the foundation and start completely over in my opinion.
Also pretty amazing is how tolerant they seem about Iginla. He's following Naslunds career path almost to a T but with waaay less criticism. Neither has won much for his team yet JI escapes the microscope so easily somehow.


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Re: From Bountiful to Ponoka

Postby dhabums » Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:47 pm

rats19 wrote:
Uncle dans leg wrote:So I was driving around this afternoon here(Calgary) listening to the fan960 as they discus whether to rebuild, retool or whatever.
I got quite a kick out of how highly they rated Bourque's trade value. They seem to think he could fetch a couple of top prospects. Unbelievable. They couldn't even get that for Phaneuf for christs sake.
Also was quite interested in how they perceive the solutions to the teams problems. I heard the guy saying they could retool and make another run. I just can't see it. They need to gut it down to the foundation and start completely over in my opinion.
Also pretty amazing is how tolerant they seem about Iginla. He's following Naslunds career path almost to a T but with waaay less criticism. Neither has won much for his team yet JI escapes the microscope so easily somehow.


That's what fighting gets you...


That and making it to 1 SCF.
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Re: From Bountiful to Ponoka

Postby Jovocop » Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:53 pm

tantalum wrote:Now if they can find someone to take Bouwmeester and frankly at this point I think that is an impossible contract to unload they may still be in cap hell next season. Now if they unload Iginla, Kiprusoff, Bourque, and Bouwmeester for some really good young assets THEN they will have ample cap space going forward. But that is up to the owners and right now not enough of them care (they were deadlocked for quite some time on removing Sutter. Some wanted it done far earlier and the compromise was bringing in Feaster as his assistant).


Speaking of JBo, MG was trying to get him few seasons ago. Do you think MG is still interested? JBo's game might fit the Canucks' style better than the Flames. I know his contract is pretty much untouchable but since AV is not fully utilizing Ballard and Raymond is still on LTIR...
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Re: From Bountiful to Ponoka

Postby dbr » Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:20 pm

Jovocop wrote:Speaking of JBo, MG was trying to get him few seasons ago. Do you think MG is still interested? JBo's game might fit the Canucks' style better than the Flames. I know his contract is pretty much untouchable but since AV is not fully utilizing Ballard and Raymond is still on LTIR...


Jovocop wrote:Don't get me wrong, like I said, I would love to have Weber Bouwmeester. However, at what cost? What is the long term impact if Weber demands $7m Bouwmeester costs $6.6m per season? Can the Canucks resign Edler? Again, I would love to have Weber Bouwmeester. However, does he really worth more than Kesler, and the Sedins???


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