Official Luongo Hate / Love Thread

[Potatoe1]

If we set aside all the debates about whether or not Luongo is an elite goalie, worth the money he's paid, or worth his cap-hit ... isn't there at least some credibility to the idea that he is now a full-blown "distraction" for other players, maybe even for management? Surely we can at least agree that he is a source of friction between "team" and a healthy percentage of "fans". I mean, regardless of whether or not you think he SHOULD be a distraction, isn't he a distraction all the same?
So I suppose the question is: At what point is the distraction -- the friction -- something that has to be dealt with? Are we there yet?

I don't think it's a distraction for the team at all.

The team has had "massive" success over the past 5 years. The teams performance both financially and on the ice have never been better.

I think it's a distraction for the fans and media but the team has had nothing but success since Lu arrived.

[dhabums]

Last Season Schneider played 25 games only 6 of those games were against playoff teams. Of those 6 games against playoff teams only 2 of his starts were against a top team (he played the Sharks twice)

Not that it really matters, but were those non playoff teams in the top 8 when we played them? Were they high scoring non playoff teams? What about road vs home? Who played in the 2nd game of a b2b? Blah blah blah and a bunch of other things that actually make stats relevant.

Not that it matters.

[ukcanuck]

If we set aside all the debates about whether or not Luongo is an elite goalie, worth the money he's paid, or worth his cap-hit ... isn't there at least some credibility to the idea that he is now a full-blown "distraction" for other players, maybe even for management? Surely we can at least agree that he is a source of friction between "team" and a healthy percentage of "fans". I mean, regardless of whether or not you think he SHOULD be a distraction, isn't he a distraction all the same?
So I suppose the question is: At what point is the distraction -- the friction -- something that has to be dealt with? Are we there yet?

Petitio principii, Et tu Brute...

[black ace]

The notion that Luongo is anything more than an average playoff goalie is pants-on-head retarded at this point. He is a very good regular season goalie who plays behind a great team and yet has been badly outplayed by the guy at the other end of the ice in five out of seven series going back three years. By definition, an above-average playoff goalie would outplay his counterpart more often than not. An ELITE goalie, IMO, is a goalie who, at least once or twice a playoff, steals games for his team in which his team is being outplayed, outshot and outchanced. How many times has Lou done that in the playoffs? Have we ever even won a playoff game with Lou in net in which we were badly outplayed?
it.

He won 3 games in the playoffs by 1-0 scores. Not to say he isint partly to blame for not winning the cup but we only scored 8 goals in a 7 game series. If the team quits because Luongo gave up an early goal then we have a lot of problems.

As an aside why is there so much negativity about the '11 run as compared to the '82 and '94 runs ?

[Cornuck]

As an aside why is there so much negativity about the '11 run as compared to the '82 and '94 runs ?

Higher expectations? '82 and '94 were "We're just happy to be there" runs.

[GoalieDad]

This may be a troubling comparison for those who doubt that the quality of team can make ALL the difference:

SEASON GOALIE GP W L T OT SO SV% GAA MIN
2003-2004 D. Cloutier 60 33 21 6 - 5 .914 2.27 3,539
2010-2011 R. Luongo 60 38 15 - 7 4 .928 2.11 3,590

Kinda spooky, ain't it?

Not an exact match, but I prolly don't have to point out that the 03-04 squad finished 7th overall, compared to the Presidents Trophy winning, record-shattering group we enjoyed last year. I'll even be so trivial as to point out that despite the somewhat weaker squad in front of him, Dan-the-Man actually bettered Luongo's ShutOut total from his Vezina-nominated season. (Petty of me, I know.)

Now, does ANYONE seriously reckon that Dan Cloutier was an "elite" goalie on account of those numbers? Or on account of his back-to-back-to-back 30+ Win seasons? Of course not! And that is the point. When a TEAM is good enough, a merely competent goalie can post some very sparkly stats. Heck, when a team is good enough they can even win a Stanley Cup with the likes of Chris Osgood in the net!

*One other thing I should add is that I do not dispute that Luongo performed remarkably in his first two seasons here. It's just that 'something happened ... maybe that groin injury, maybe an undisclosed head injury ... ? But the guy has lost his balance, his athleticism, and his mojo (baby:-).

[Meds]

That's all true. I would still take Lundqvist over Lou in a do or die game with this team.

Same here, and I think this sums it up for me.

I'm not really questioning a "realistic" Luongo vs Schneider scenario. I don't think it would be fair to put all of our expectations on a greenhorn like CS, nor do I think that would be particularly sane. (although I do think there's something to be said about the "grace period" theory voiced earlier)

The only reason I say give CS a try is because I look back at Carolina's Cup win over the Oiler's in 2006.....Cam Who? Ward was a rookie that I had never heard of until the puck dropped to start the playoffs, even at that, he was supposed to be Gerber's backup. I think that may have been a case where a rookie came in, playing way over his head, and just enjoyed it for what it was. He hit a hot streak, found a horseshoe, and since there were no expectations on him to deliver anything, he just rode it out and had fun with it.

I think the same COULD have been true for Schneider, but not anymore. He's now seen firsthand what fans in Vancouver do to a guy who isn't performing up to expectations. He has read about, heard about, and seen what fans think he's capable of and what they would expect him to deliver. Granted, he would be given about $5M more rope than Luongo to hang himself with, and that just might be the only grace remaining for him. Next year I can't see him making less than $2.5M if his performance remains on par with last year. With us, or someone who fires him an offer-sheet that we can't match. The window for Schneider to take over and play beyond expectations with his head down below the line of media and fan fire will close this year.

[dhabums]

This may be a troubling comparison for those who doubt that the quality of team can make ALL the difference:

SEASON GOALIE GP W L T OT SO SV% GAA MIN
2003-2004 D. Cloutier 60 33 21 6 - 5 .914 2.27 3,539
2010-2011 R. Luongo 60 38 15 - 7 4 .928 2.11 3,590

Kinda spooky, ain't it?

Not an exact match, but I prolly don't have to point out that the 03-04 squad finished 7th overall, compared to the Presidents Trophy winning, record-shattering group we enjoyed last year. I'll even be so trivial as to point out that despite the somewhat weaker squad in front of him, Dan-the-Man actually bettered Luongo's ShutOut total from his Vezina-nominated season. (Petty of me, I know.)

Ignoring eras is convenient when discussing goalies. It works with players too, though. Clearly NHLers were better in the 80s with all the 50 goal scorers!

[dhabums]

That's all true. I would still take Lundqvist over Lou in a do or die game with this team.

Same here, and I think this sums it up for me.

I'm not really questioning a "realistic" Luongo vs Schneider scenario. I don't think it would be fair to put all of our expectations on a greenhorn like CS, nor do I think that would be particularly sane. (although I do think there's something to be said about the "grace period" theory voiced earlier)

The only reason I say give CS a try is because I look back at Carolina's Cup win over the Oiler's in 2006.....Cam Who? Ward was a rookie that I had never heard of until the puck dropped to start the playoffs, even at that, he was supposed to be Gerber's backup. I think that may have been a case where a rookie came in, playing way over his head, and just enjoyed it for what it was. He hit a hot streak, found a horseshoe, and since there were no expectations on him to deliver anything, he just rode it out and had fun with it.

Meds, that is a terribly scary reason to give a guy a shot. The list of failed goalie experiments far outweigh the "holy shit that actually worked?!?!" scenarios. As for having no expectations, do you think that the market Ward played in helped? You know, the sport 14th on the list. The Tehran Pride Parade is bigger than the Hurricane celebration.

[Rumsfeld]

LOL @ Tehran Pride parade.

[ESQ]

Not that it really matters, but were those non playoff teams in the top 8 when we played them? Were they high scoring non playoff teams? What about road vs home? Who played in the 2nd game of a b2b? Blah blah blah and a bunch of other things that actually make stats relevant.

Not that it matters.

Feel free to look for yourself, I'll post the link again http://espn.go.com/nhl/player/gamelog/_/id/3750/year/2011/cory-schneider

I count 2 starts against the Blue Jackets, 3 against the Oilers, 2 against Colorado, 2 against Dallas, 3 against the Wild. Dallas and Colorado were 17th and 18th last year in Goals For, while the 3 others were bottom 6. Carolina, Calgary, and St. Louis could be considered "high scoring non playoff teams", all finishing top 12 in the League in GF.

As for the other questions, I can't put in the time to answer them. If you think they make the stats "relevant" feel free to actually do the research and tell us if they support your hypothesis (not entirely sure what point you're trying to make though).

Getting 1/5th of your starts against the two worst teams in the league at least points to a bit of a pattern...

Kinda spooky, ain't it?

That's a bit of a stretch, as you're comparing a goalie in what was literally the most offense-starved season in the history of the NHL.

A stat I find useful in comparing goalie stats in different seasons is Win %, or Ws / Games Started. Luongo's Win % was 63.3%, while Cloutier's was 55%.

But what truly separates Luongo and Cloutier is consistency over many years, and playoff series wins.

[GoalieDad]

If we set aside all the debates about whether or not Luongo is an elite goalie, worth the money he's paid, or worth his cap-hit ... isn't there at least some credibility to the idea that he is now a full-blown "distraction" for other players, maybe even for management? Surely we can at least agree that he is a source of friction between "team" and a healthy percentage of "fans". I mean, regardless of whether or not you think he SHOULD be a distraction, isn't he a distraction all the same?
So I suppose the question is: At what point is the distraction -- the friction -- something that has to be dealt with? Are we there yet?

Petitio principii, Et tu Brute...

I am torn between
"Oh yeah?!"
and
"I don't speak freaky-deaky-Dutch!"

So feel free to choose for yourself.

[dhabums]

As for the other questions, I can't put in the time to answer them. If you think they make the stats "relevant" feel free to actually do the research and tell us if they support your hypothesis (not entirely sure what point you're trying to make though).

I don't particularly care nor do I have any hypothesis, I'm just more than a little bored at the abuse stats take on hockey boards. If Schneider plays the Wild when they are in 5th in the conference and playing well in November, does where they finish in April matter? If he played Calgary when they were on their tear last year would that matter? These questions are all rhetorical.

[Meds]

Meds, that is a terribly scary reason to give a guy a shot. The list of failed goalie experiments far outweigh the "holy shit that actually worked?!?!" scenarios. As for having no expectations, do you think that the market Ward played in helped? You know, the sport 14th on the list. The Tehran Pride Parade is bigger than the Hurricane celebration.

You're absolutely right, it is scary. But that's kinda the point. If your starting, $10M goalie isn't getting it done, then it's time for scary. I was more making the point that if they want to try Schneider while he's still in a place where the pressure isn't going to be such an issue, that time is now.....and the market Ward was in was a huge factor, I forgot to mention that.

[dhabums]

Meds, that is a terribly scary reason to give a guy a shot. The list of failed goalie experiments far outweigh the "holy shit that actually worked?!?!" scenarios. As for having no expectations, do you think that the market Ward played in helped? You know, the sport 14th on the list. The Tehran Pride Parade is bigger than the Hurricane celebration.

You're absolutely right, it is scary. But that's kinda the point. If your starting, $10M goalie isn't getting it done, then it's time for scary. I was more making the point that if they want to try Schneider while he's still in a place where the pressure isn't going to be such an issue, that time is now.....and the market Ward was in was a huge factor, I forgot to mention that.

And if it doesn't work?

I am NOT against trying new things based on what we've seen in the playoffs over the last 3 years. In the playoffs, I hope we are not married to Luongo no matter what. I hope that WHEN he has his meltdowns, we get him out after 2 goals when the game is still alive rather than 4 or 5. Make the change to shake things up rather than the current mercy pull.