So, being new to this forum and all, I went looking for a something interesting to talk about (or maybe a pot to stir) and I came across this question. In reading the thread, however, I didn't come across a lot of answers. Ok, there were answers, but nothing particularly convincing. It seems mostly to consist of the same old inch deep, out of the box caricatures (with the exception of the post on neighbourhoods...that was interesting). For the most part, here and elsewhere, the entire argument is premised on a misunderstanding of the nature of not only socialism, but capitalism, fascism..and various and sundry other isms. It's July and while we're waiting on Mr. Gillis to make bold moves (perhaps by making no more moves...now that's bold!), why don't we solve this old problem once and for all?