The case for statehood

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Re: The case for statehood

Postby Per » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:54 am

Strangelove wrote:
Per wrote:Not that it should be a surprise to anyone.


Nope, like the article says: "Obama & Netanyahu have what is often regarded as the worst relations between an American president and the head of the Jewish state since its founding in 1948."

But hey we knew going in Obama leaves much to be desired where it comes to foreign relations.

Uhm... yeah, if you believe in the gospel of Fox News... :roll:

If you instead care to look at the facts, the Pew Research Center studies global attitudes, and they have data on how the USA and the US president have been viewed around the world at different times.

The fact is that of all countries polled, traditional allies and foes alike, all countries except Israel have more confidence in Obama (2011) then they had in Bush (2008). And in the case of Israel it's a slight drop, from 57 to 49%, rather than a landslide. If you instead look at Germany (Bush 14%, Obama 88%), France (B 13% O 84%), Britain (B 16% O 75%) or Japan (B 25% O 81%) it's obvious that the USA's closest allies feel much more comfortable with Barack than they did with George Jr. Even a staunchly conservative place like Poland gives Obama a slight edge: B 41% O 52%.

Take a look yourself: http://www.pewglobal.org/database/?indicator=6

Bush and Rumsfeld's habits of ignoring and at times even bullying their partners (remember eg snubs against Germany and France) left people disturbed, confused and annoyed. Obama and Clinton, on the other hand have made sure to consult with and cooperate with their allies. Sure, it's a bit too early to yell "mission accomplished" but look at how much smoother the transformation of Libya seems to be moving, compared to Iraq. Obama/Clinton made sure to include North African neighbours in the process and stay in the background, rather than the Bush/Rumsfeld approach of ignoring what every one else says and just storm in like a bull in a china store.

I'd say foreign policy is the arena where Obama's superiority over Bush II is perhaps most visible.

Strangelove wrote:
Per wrote:Tremendously frustrating though that people immediately jump to the conclusion that it mirrors anti-Israeli feelings, when in fact Sarkozy is probably the most pro-Israeli leader France has ever had.


That's not saying much given the fact France has pretty much been considered anti-Israel for the past 44 years!

Many doubt Sarkozy's sincerity in regards to Israel and this recent gaff is not going to help.


So next you are going to say that he is just another self hating Jew? :|

Strangelove wrote:
Per wrote:It's not Israel he dislikes, it's that buffoon Netanyahu. A man who is willing to release 1000 enprisoned Palestinians in exchange for one Israeli soldier held by Hamas just to make sure to strengthen Hamas as they seem to be losing ground among Palestinian voters. I'm convinced Netanyahu wants Hamas to win the elections so that he will not have to negotiate.


So...

Netanyahu is a buffoon for releasing 1000 imprisoned Palestinians.

AND

Netanyahu is an evil genius for releasing 1000 imprisoned Palestinians.

Ummmm wotever Per.... :drink:

Nah, Netanyahu is a buffoon for having an overly simplified black and white world view and for completely lacking manners in how he deals with foreign heads of state (eg Obama). But even buffoons try to outsmart their opponents. If he were serious he should have released the prisoners to the Palestinian authorities in Nablus, but he preferred to deal directly with Hamas, the same organisation he refuses to talk to..... :eh:

Luckily his tactics don't seem to work. 8-)
Abbas's Approval Rating Continues to Rise
The majority of Palestinians (84 percent) gave President Abbas a positive rating. This is a 10-
point increase form AWRAD's June 2011 poll and a 19-point increase since early 2011. For the
first time in several years, the majority of Palestinians viewed the President's performance as
"good." Additionally, his negative ratings have decreased this year from 35 percent in January to
14 percent in the present poll.
PM Haniyeh's Rating Continues to Decline
The overall positive rating of Ismael Haniyeh went from 63 percent in June 2011 down to 58
percent. Of particular note, the percentage of respondents describing his performance as "good"
dropped by 10 points, from 30 percent in June to 20 percent in September. His negative
evaluations increased from 30 percent in June to 35 percent in the present poll.

- - -

If elections took place today, Fateh would receive 38 percent of the vote. The popularity of the
movement is consistent between the West Bank and Gaza.
For the first time, AWRAD's polling showed support for Hamas dropping below 10 percent.
Three months immediately after the 2006 elections, Hamas support was in the 50 percent range.
Support for the party has dropped in polls over the past several years as Gazans, in particular,
have indicated dissatisfaction with the state of affairs in the Strip. In the lead up to the current
poll, the popularity of Hamas was negatively influenced by the conflicting, but generally
negative, positions of its leaders towards Abbas' UN initiative.
http://miftah.org/Display.cfm?DocId=24017&CategoryId=17
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Re: The case for statehood

Postby Strangelove » Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:47 pm

Per wrote:
Strangelove wrote:
Per wrote:Not that it should be a surprise to anyone.


Nope, like the article says: "Obama & Netanyahu have what is often regarded as the worst relations between an American president and the head of the Jewish state since its founding in 1948."

But hey we knew going in Obama leaves much to be desired where it comes to foreign relations.



If you instead care to look at the facts, the Pew Research Center studies global attitudes, and they have data on how the USA and the US president have been viewed around the world at different times.

The fact is that of all countries polled, traditional allies and foes alike, all countries except Israel have more confidence in Obama (2011) then they had in Bush (2008). And in the case of Israel it's a slight drop, from 57 to 49%, rather than a landslide. If you instead look at Germany (Bush 14%, Obama 88%), France (B 13% O 84%), Britain (B 16% O 75%) or Japan (B 25% O 81%) it's obvious that the USA's closest allies feel much more comfortable with Barack than they did with George Jr. Even a staunchly conservative place like Poland gives Obama a slight edge: B 41% O 52%.

Take a look yourself: http://www.pewglobal.org/database/?indicator=6

I'd say foreign policy is the arena where Obama's superiority over Bush II is perhaps most visible.


Ummm why are you comparing Obama to Bush? :shock:

Does it have anything to do with the fact YOUR link said

"Obama & Netanyahu have what is often regarded as the worst relations between an American president and the head of the Jewish state since its founding in 1948."


:lol:

Obama leaves much to be desired where it comes to foreign relations.

Bush left even more to be desired where it came to foreign relations. :drink:

But at least Bush knew the importance of US-Israel relations.

There is good reason you & I have discussed said relations so many times over the years

.... rather than American relations with saaaay.... France?

Per wrote:Sure, it's a bit too early to yell "mission accomplished" but look at how much smoother the transformation of Libya seems to be moving, compared to Iraq.


Ummm why are you comparing a no-boots-on-the-ground aiding of one side in a civil war to a.... war war. :D

Why are you comparing a conflict in a population-5mil country to a conflict in a population-30mil country?

Why are you comparing a case where USA allows France to be viewed as the heroes vs....... not? ;)

Per wrote:
Strangelove wrote:
Per wrote:Tremendously frustrating though that people immediately jump to the conclusion that it mirrors anti-Israeli feelings, when in fact Sarkozy is probably the most pro-Israeli leader France has ever had.


That's not saying much given the fact France has pretty much been considered anti-Israel for the past 44 years!

Many doubt Sarkozy's sincerity in regards to Israel and this recent gaff is not going to help.


So next you are going to say that he is just another self hating Jew? :|


Sarkozy being of partly jewish decent has no doubt nothing to do with his politics toward present day Israel...

Per wrote:
Strangelove wrote:
Per wrote:It's not Israel he dislikes, it's that buffoon Netanyahu. A man who is willing to release 1000 enprisoned Palestinians in exchange for one Israeli soldier held by Hamas just to make sure to strengthen Hamas as they seem to be losing ground among Palestinian voters. I'm convinced Netanyahu wants Hamas to win the elections so that he will not have to negotiate.


So...

Netanyahu is a buffoon for releasing 1000 imprisoned Palestinians.

AND

Netanyahu is an evil genius for releasing 1000 imprisoned Palestinians.

Ummmm wotever Per.... :drink:



Nah, Netanyahu is a buffoon for having an overly simplified black and white world view and for completely lacking manners in how he deals with foreign heads of state (eg Obama). But even buffoons try to outsmart their opponents. If he were serious he should have released the prisoners to the Palestinian authorities in Nablus, but he preferred to deal directly with Hamas, the same organisation he refuses to talk to..... :eh:

Luckily his tactics don't seem to work. 8-)

http://miftah.org/Display.cfm?DocId=24017&CategoryId=17


Ummm alleged tactics.

Alleged black and white world view.

Alleged lacking of manners.

Alleged buffoonery.

And your Palestinian Opinion Poll is from Oct 2-4 while the prisoner-swap wasn't announced til Oct 11

... so allegedly not working. :mex:
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