HST

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How will you vote on the HST referendum (for BC folks only)

Poll ended at Mon Aug 08, 2011 11:44 am

YES to extinguish the HST
11
42%
NO to keep the HST
15
58%
 
Total votes: 26

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Arachnid
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Re: HST

Post by Arachnid » Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:16 pm

Aaronp18 wrote:Does anyone else find it ironic that 2 of the guys contributing the most to the HST debate don't live anywhere near BC?
No, it's Iconic We have been through it so suck it up and be a Canuck :evil:
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Re: HST

Post by ClamRussel » Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:26 pm

Arachnid wrote:
Aaronp18 wrote:Does anyone else find it ironic that 2 of the guys contributing the most to the HST debate don't live anywhere near BC?
No, it's Iconic We have been through it so suck it up and be a Canuck :evil:
I'm back in BC, just haven't changed my deets yo.
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Re: HST

Post by LotusBlossom » Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:38 pm

Why don't we just Boston Tea Party up this thing. Instead of dumping tea bags into the water, let's dump the douche bags into the water.

That event after all, was somewhat an 'economic reaction' as someone commented about an article in today's Sun.
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Re: HST

Post by Topper » Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:35 pm

Gordo was turfed because of the way the HST was brought in. In the process, our London diplomat made Hansen unelectable (he really did have it in for his finance ministers didn't he).

Revenge for its implementation is complete.

The question now is

Is the HST and $1.6 billion less debt good for you or or was the PST+GST system and the additional $1.6 billion debt (and the additional taxes to pay it off) better for you?

Stomp your feet and throw all the tantrums you want, debts still need to be paid.
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Re: HST

Post by ClamRussel » Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:40 pm

Topper wrote:Gordo was turfed because of the way the HST was brought in. In the process, our London diplomat made Hansen unelectable (he really did have it in for his finance ministers didn't he).

Revenge for its implementation is complete.
Ya huge price Gordo paid, he's now raking in $190,000 annually and will soon be collecting his $100,000+ BC pension on top of that. He's got a chauffeur, private car, rent free mansion, private chef, full staff and gets to travel around Europe hob-nobbing w/ the elite and monarchy. Rough life. Sounds like a promotion to me.....hmmm, that wouldn't be a kickback for implementing the HST after declaring it was "bad for BC" in previous elections would it? Ya sure Hansen paid the price but I'm sure his kickback is coming as well.

The revenge for its implementation will be complete when its dead & buried.
Topper wrote:The question now is
Topper wrote:Is the HST and $1.6 billion less debt good for you or or was the PST+GST system and the additional $1.6 billion debt (and the additional taxes to pay it off) better for you?

Stomp your feet and throw all the tantrums you want, debts still need to be paid.
Government debts never get paid. They never have and they never will. Its called money creation. Right now the US is asking to increase its debt ceiling by $2trillion...a debt that could never ever be paid off. If their ceiling is not increased they could default. $1.6million is nothing Topper, how are we going to cover the 2% reduction Christie has promised? Over the years that will add up to 10s of $billions. The Liberals have announced they are going to hike corporate taxes back up to 2008 levels but this will only account for about 25% of that.

Another factor in this mess is: taxation autonomy. Part of the deal w/ the HST is the feds can increase the taxation right as they please and there is nothing BC can do about it. Look to Europe and how the average VATs are now up in the 20% range. The "Harper Government" could do as they please and there's nothing BC could say about it.
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Re: HST

Post by ClamRussel » Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:53 pm

LotusBlossom wrote:I gotta give it to you, Clam. You're the only one I know that comes to a bar that I am sitting at, with my friends, having some bevvies prior to a Canucks game and gets pretty much everyone at my table to sign the petition.

I decided to compare some dinner receipts since the introduction of the HST to some prior to the HST. The difference is pretty significant. As a business owner, I can write those off and in reality it's easier for me to do my corporate taxes etc.
If I was just an everyday working person, with no business write-offs, I'd be very upset seeing my disposable income go out quicker than it has been previously. So, of course, I am going to be against something that is taking it from me without any sort of substantial difference of the extra levy being shown to me in any sort of time frame.

I just want to know, this time around, why I should vote to abolish it and go back to the old ways of taxing? On principle alone, with the way it came in, I should vote YES to abolish the tax, on the other hand, as a business owner, it should be a benefit for me to keep it. It's a struggle, but as I was talking to CB about this, sometimes, you just have to do the right thing, even if it means you lose out a little on it from your own personal end...

Addition: Clam, when I read my package, I will read it all through and make the best decision based on facts. Emotion plays high in BC about this, and the problem is, no one seems to read much these days...perhaps they should.
Nothing more could be asked than to make an informed decision w/ a clear conscience. I'm impressed because I know it could be an easy decision for one to make from a business perspective. Good on you guys. A couple additional points to consider. First of all, be aware that with the reduction down to 10% comes an increase in corporate taxes to try & make up the difference. They will be bumping them back up to 2008 standards to begin with. Also, just because we go back to the old taxation system doesn't mean we're stuck with it. There is still room to bring in a VAT that is done w/ full transparency, considers all parties involved, open to discussion and is fair & honest. A VAT should be fair to both the consumers and the business community alike. There are several forms of VATs out there, the HST is merely one variation. I don't think British Columbians mind paying tax at all, they just want it to pay taxes that are hatched in a back room and don't benefit them at all (increased taxes+revenue neutral=no benefit to general revenue/social programs). They don't want to subsidize big business, they want public transportation, healthcare & education properly funded. The pendulum swung as far as the Liberals could push it before it eventually swung back and smashed into them.

Allowing this tax to go through just feeds their arrogance. It proves they can do whatever they want and get away with it. The right thing to do is put a sword through its heart and demand accountability!
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Topper
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Re: HST

Post by Topper » Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:23 pm

Clam, your replies to me and LB are contradictions.

$1.6 BILLION Clams
Last edited by Topper on Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: HST

Post by rats19 » Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:34 pm

in a country larger than the states with 10% of the people..we need taxes. i am not against taxes. this one seems to streamline things abit and from who I have talked to its ok..


where the issue lies..is the lies and other deceit and protectionism that goes on. for one

I dont like the lifetime pension at 80% of salary while working (there is a formula) but hey no one gets that.. they say its because we dedicated our lives(8yrs) to servicing the public and could not run our law offices or whatever during that time.. come on give me a frikken break if you were any good at the law office or whatever you never would have run for office..

Just like I dont buy the pro sports analogy of well our career may only be 10 years long so we need to make gabazillions.. ok 100k per year for the life of n average worker gives 2.5 million over 25 yrs..so fuck that. Now dont get me wrong they do bring in people and provide entertainment. but surely to christ maxing out a 2mill a year would be enough dont ya think...so not derail more than i have, i think keeping the hounds honest is the thing to do...

rat
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Re: HST

Post by ClamRussel » Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:05 pm

Topper wrote:Clam, your replies to me and LB are contradictions.

$1.6 BILLION Clams
How so? ...I am aware there are pros & cons to this thing. Its a mess either way and will be ugly. The contradiction is accepting the $1.6billion bribe to try & quick-fix a FAILED and DECEITFUL financial budget (more Liberal lies) while transferring taxation from companies to everyday people.....then trying to fix that problem by dropping the tax 2%....then trying to fix that problem (not enough revenue) by increasing corporate taxation......repeat shell game ad nauseum. Now that my friend is contradiction.
rats19 wrote:in a country larger than the states with 10% of the people..we need taxes. i am not against taxes. this one seems to streamline things abit and from who I have talked to its ok..


where the issue lies..is the lies and other deceit and protectionism that goes on. for one

I dont like the lifetime pension at 80% of salary while working (there is a formula) but hey no one gets that.. they say its because we dedicated our lives(8yrs) to servicing the public and could not run our law offices or whatever during that time.. come on give me a frikken break if you were any good at the law office or whatever you never would have run for office..

Just like I dont buy the pro sports analogy of well our career may only be 10 years long so we need to make gabazillions.. ok 100k per year for the life of n average worker gives 2.5 million over 25 yrs..so fuck that. Now dont get me wrong they do bring in people and provide entertainment. but surely to christ maxing out a 2mill a year would be enough dont ya think...so not derail more than i have, i think keeping the hounds honest is the thing to do...

rat
I hear ya rats, but at least in the free market of pro sports it all comes down to fans and business. They negotiate their deals from player salaries to TV contracts. Its what the market will bear even if it is distorted and ridiculous. The problem w/ politicians is they awarded themselves those salaries and ludicrous pensions. There is no market, its a monopoly w/ play money. I mean really, 8yrs = pension?!?
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Topper
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Re: HST

Post by Topper » Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:25 pm

ClamRussel wrote: Nothing more could be asked than to make an informed decision w/ a clear conscience.

.........

Allowing this tax to go through just feeds their arrogance. It proves they can do whatever they want and get away with it. The right thing to do is put a sword through its heart and demand accountability!
Wow
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Re: HST

Post by ClamRussel » Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:03 pm

Topper wrote:
ClamRussel wrote: Nothing more could be asked than to make an informed decision w/ a clear conscience.

.........

Allowing this tax to go through just feeds their arrogance. It proves they can do whatever they want and get away with it. The right thing to do is put a sword through its heart and demand accountability!
Wow
Holy nit-picking Topper. I suppose in my hasty typing I should have qualified that statement a bit if we're going to be like that.
How's this?

If it bothers you how they brought in the tax the right thing to do is put a sword through its heart and demand accountability!

Hopefully thats clear as mud :drink: as I stand behind both statements. Now back to your regularly scheduled debate...
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Farhan Lalji

Re: HST

Post by Farhan Lalji » Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:17 pm

Blob Mckenzie wrote: Either way if it comes down to an either or of having HST or horrible income taxes (see NDP), I'd choose the HST. Heaven help us if the NDP gets back in power again, though I'm sure there might be the odd security guard who would like that.
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My opinion is this

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Re: HST

Post by Topper » Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:57 pm

So what you are saying Clam,
Because a fairer and more equitable tax was implemented poorly, we should return to the less equitable system with and additional debt burden.

Even though we know it will cost us more and be an increased financial burden, we will be making a moral statement on the way the tax was implemented.
I say that moral statement has been made, Gord is no longer Premier and we have a referendum. When it comes to taxation, I vote with my pocket book.
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Re: HST

Post by ClamRussel » Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:36 pm

Topper wrote:So what you are saying Clam,
Because a fairer and more equitable tax was implemented poorly, we should return to the less equitable system with and additional debt burden.

Even though we know it will cost us more and be an increased financial burden, we will be making a moral statement on the way the tax was implemented.
I say that moral statement has been made, Gord is no longer Premier and we have a referendum. When it comes to taxation, I vote with my pocket book.
Ok, fair enough but don't be fooled by the promise of 10%. The budget cannot sustain it and mark my words they will A) back down and cancel the reduction (don't believe the "law" that was passed, this government also passed a law that prevented them from running a deficit then canceled it) B) drop it to 10% then ramp it up to 15% or higher to make up for lost ground or C) increase taxes elsewhere; most likely income tax.

Unlike what "HSTinBC" would have us believe, the old system is not a 12% tax. It is sometimes 12% and other times 5%. PST exemptions include restaurants, bikes & houses. How does your pocketbook like 5% on dining bills? ....how about saving 7% on a new home?

I know my pocketbook prefers 5% on some very key items. I like to eat out alot. I will be purchasing more homes in the future.

BC cannot sustain a 10% HST, the numbers don't add up. This is simply pre-referendum & pre-election rhetoric & propaganda. This is to get Christy Clark past those 2 obstacles. Once on the other side they will do an about face and ram 2% or more down our throats. The HST is NOT fairer & more equitable to the common person; it is a financial windfall for large multinational corporations who happen to be located in BC. A tax shift onto the tax payer's back is hardly fair & equitable unless you buy the bridge the Libs are selling. A true pure VAT is the way to go, the HST is not that. Scrap this bogus tax and negotiate a proper streamlined tax that benefits companies and doesn't fuck the people that are already overburdened (the Fraser Institute recently declared BC residents pay the highest taxes to lowest income/standard of living ratio of any province west of Quebec).
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Re: HST

Post by Topper » Wed Jul 13, 2011 4:58 am

I agree the 10% HST (two years away) is a political maneuver, but I do not believe in the old system was a 12%/5% split either.

Businesses still paid GST+PST on some inputs, and that PST was not recoverable and was passed along to consumers. Those cost were hidden, and each time a product moved through the supply chain, taxes were paid on taxes at each level. The longer the supply chain the greater the multiplier.

The great advantage of the HST is it makes those taxes recoverable at each step so that they are not multiplied.
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