Transferring the Political Debate to the B&Grill

[Badfish]

The 13 Most Evil U.S. Government Experiments on Humans

This is the same inept gov't that can't keep a secret and wouldn't be so cold as to sacrifice 3000 Americans...

[Island Nucklehead]

You're totally correct about everything except for the thousands. Without sounding like a "truther" here just do a little research into what happened at NORAD that day to refer to one point you made. It was complete chaos and no one there seemed to know what was going on (re War Games). Was it just a coincidence that NORAD was conducting identical hijacked airliner simulations that same morning? This most certainly accounts for why NORAD didn't react appropriately and doesn't make the people there "involved" in any way that they'd "have to know." I'm not trying to say it was an "inside job" but the notion that "thousands" would have to be in on it is absurd.

Well one of the fundamental problems with NORAD was that they're geared towards attacks from abroad. They're not nearly as concerned with a domestic-based attack. The excercises would certainly explain a lot of the confusion, but you have pilots that were scrambled that day asserting that they weren't even given live munitions, so they couldn't shoot down a plane if they wanted to.

The thousands I refer to is actually quite plausible, given the bigger picture. NORAD's commanders would have to be in on this with the administration. Bush can't just show up and say, "hey guys do an excercise this day, with this template". You'd have American and Canadian commanders in on this plot, even if the folks below them weren't.

You have hundreds of eyewitnesses in the Washington area that SAW a plane hit the pentagon, they'd have to be in on it. You have dozens of family members that received phone calls from family members on the doomed fligths. They'd have to be in on it. You have intelligence analysts that were pretty much screaming at the top of their lungs that hijackings were being planned, they'd have to be in on it. You would have to have the demolishion teams to destroy the towers in on it. You would even have to have Al Qaeda on side with it.

Thousands is right...

[Cornuck]

The thousands I refer to is actually quite plausible, given the bigger picture. NORAD's commanders would have to be in on this with the administration. Bush can't just show up and say, "hey guys do an excercise this day, with this template". You'd have American and Canadian commanders in on this plot, even if the folks below them weren't.

You have hundreds of eyewitnesses in the Washington area that SAW a plane hit the pentagon, they'd have to be in on it. You have dozens of family members that received phone calls from family members on the doomed fligths. They'd have to be in on it. You have intelligence analysts that were pretty much screaming at the top of their lungs that hijackings were being planned, they'd have to be in on it. You would have to have the demolishion teams to destroy the towers in on it. You would even have to have Al Qaeda on side with it.

Thousands is right...

Norad - one person could give the command to stand down. Cheney and Bush testified behind closed doors and not under oath.

Plane at the Pentagon - it happened, so eyewitnesses aren't needed.

Phone calls - who made them? Was it even possible? Personally, I don't think they were made from the planes.

Intel analysts - they were doing their job and got ignored (not needed in the plan).

Demo teams - we all know there are black ops teams that do this sort of work - they're not going to brag about it.

Al Qaeda - is just a name given to extremists, it's really just a database more than an organized group. Easy to 9-11 on them - plus they've been faking Osama videos and recordings for years.

[ClamRussel]

I think you F'ed up the quote there Cornuck...

[Cornuck]

I think you F'ed up the quote there Cornuck...

Think I got it now - I hate putting words into people's mouths - especially on a hot topic.

[ClamRussel]

Well one of the fundamental problems with NORAD was that they're geared towards attacks from abroad. They're not nearly as concerned with a domestic-based attack. The excercises would certainly explain a lot of the confusion, but you have pilots that were scrambled that day asserting that they weren't even given live munitions, so they couldn't shoot down a plane if they wanted to.

The thousands I refer to is actually quite plausible, given the bigger picture. NORAD's commanders would have to be in on this with the administration. Bush can't just show up and say, "hey guys do an excercise this day, with this template". You'd have American and Canadian commanders in on this plot, even if the folks below them weren't.

You have hundreds of eyewitnesses in the Washington area that SAW a plane hit the pentagon, they'd have to be in on it. You have dozens of family members that received phone calls from family members on the doomed fligths. They'd have to be in on it. You have intelligence analysts that were pretty much screaming at the top of their lungs that hijackings were being planned, they'd have to be in on it. You would have to have the demolishion teams to destroy the towers in on it. You would even have to have Al Qaeda on side with it.

Thousands is right...

No chance. People would be on a 'need to know basis' and you do your job w/o asking questions. I can't even believe I'm having this argument because I'm not saying it was a plot...I just know IF it was it wouldn't take that many people to be 'in on it' to make it happen. Just look at any military operation, only a select few know why you're going to war, a larger number know what you're going to do and the rest in the pyramidal infrastructure all follow orders w/ varying degrees of insight right to the bottom where they just do what they're told no questions asked.

How do you know "hundreds" saw a plane hit the pentagon? I've seen clips of a few people who say that but also others who saw a missile others saw a small plane, others saw an unmarked military plane and at least one saw a helicopter. They were all interviewed by various news stations and you can see those clips online. So who is right? Some swear there was no plane. Where you there? I wasn't and I see *no* evidence a plane actually hit the building....something sure as hell did but if you ignore the media and look at the evidence it would be hard to deduce a huge airliner did. FEMA originally came out and said the wings folded up and went in alongside the fuselage which is why it looks like a torpedo hole. Right.

Unless a person actually witnessed the event how can you ever really know the truth, because Fox News says it was so? We say so much footage of the towers getting hit, why nothing of the pentagon? ...apparently there are loads of different angles including from a gas station. I'd like to see that clip. Until something comes out there will always be doubt as, at the very least, the evidence provided is not exactly bulletproof.

I'm not as up to speed on NORAD as you are....who then is in charge of wayward domestic planes? I've always heard that if a plane goes off course by 5 degrees they'll quickly be intercepted by fighter pilots. I've also never heard they were not given live munitions...how can that be explained? Seems a tad odd to me. Also why weren't they intercepted even w/o live ammunitions. The point would be to maintain some kind of communication. NO jets were scrambled in time to intercept a single flight despite the fact there are air force bases all over that region. These 4 birds were in the sky for quite awhile and did huge sweeping 180s.

[Badfish]

You know I've been thinking a bit more about this, and there's one point I wish I'd focused more on.

To this point most of the arguments have been speculative, with not allot of hard evidence either way. for example, how/why the buildings collapsed, etc etc.

I want to draw attention to a point that has indisputable evidence, the Put-options that were placed on airlines, insurance companies, weapons manufacturers and financial instituions. here are two links with details about this:

Insider Trading - Pre-9/11 Put Options on Companies Hurt by Attack Indicates Foreknowledge


Suppressed Details of Criminal Insider Trading Lead Directly into the CIA’s Highest Ranks - CIA Executive Director “Buzzy” Krongard managed firm that handled “PUT” options on United Airline Stock

On the days leading up to 9-11, put options were placed on the two airliners involved in the attacks, 285 times their daily average.

The spikes in put options occurred on days that were uneventful for the airlines and their stock prices.

On Sept. 6-7, when there was no significant news or stock price movement involving United, the Chicago exchange handled 4,744 put options for UAL stock, compared with just 396 call options -- essentially bets that the price will rise. On Sept. 10, an uneventful day for American, the volume was 748 calls and 4,516 puts, based on a check of option trading records. 5
The Bloomberg News reported that put options on the airlines surged to the phenomenal high of 285 times their average.

Over three days before terrorists flattened the World Trade Center and damaged the Pentagon, there was more than 25 times the previous daily average trading in a Morgan Stanley "put" option that makes money when shares fall below $45. Trading in similar AMR and UAL put options, which make money when their stocks fall below $30 apiece, surged to as much as 285 times the average trading up to that time. 6
When the market reopened after the attack, United Airlines stock fell 42 percent from $30.82 to $17.50 per share, and American Airlines stock fell 39 percent, from $29.70 to $18.00 per share.

How can this be explained away? Somebody knew, word got out, and people made millions upon millions of dollars off it Including a 2.5 million payout still left unclaimed, and huge ties in all of this to CIA. This has been reported in the New York Times, Bloomberg and many other "reputable publications" all without serious follow up as to what this means about 9-11.

This, to me, shows beyond a shadow of a doubt, that there was foreknowledge of the attacks. Again if that is the ONLY crime committed here, a fore-knowledge and allowance of the attacks on 9-11, it is an extremely serious one that NEEDS to be fully investigated. However, imo, the odds are that this is only the tip of the iceberg...

[Island Nucklehead]

Is it just my keyboard that's messed up when typing or what??

So, if I misspell something you'll have to forgive me!

That dooesn't really jive either , Clam. A guy can't shoot one wounded afghan without it coming out. American marines blast 14 or 15 people and that comes out.

Soldiers are specifically trained to "obey all lawful commands". If they don't feel a command is lawful (ie "shoot this guy cuz he looks funny") They are required to Not follow that order. I would have a hard time believing even 10 or 15 of the highest ranking people would agree that killing 3,000 Americans was the best way to iget a reason to invade Afghanistan.

That's the funny thing, before 9/11 NORAD had nothing to do with domestic plaanes. That was an FAA thing. Typically, hijackings are not a military matter. The planes were scrambled without live ammunition because there was no thought that the multiple hijackings would turn into an aerial bombardment. The jets were supposed to shadow and figure out where the planes were going. Once they turned off their transponders, planes are incredibly difficult to track, especially when they change course, because of all the other planes in the air.

The FAA knew of the first hijacking at 8:19AM, by 9:03 both planes had crashed into the WTC buildings. The Pentagon is it at 9:37. It takes until 9:45 to order the shut-down of US Airspace. Unlike what some people like to think, the military isn't (wasn't then) on constant standby to fly with armed jets. And to prepare for such things, does take time. To think that these jets were scrambled to shoot down airliners is a bit misguided, at least prior to them realizes planes were goingt o be flying into buildings. By the time they could get them to that state the whole thing was over. In fact, it wasn't until 1015 that Cheney gives the order to shoot down any further hijacked aircraft, 12 minutes after flight 93 crashed.

[Per]

Speaking of politics, this'd be funny if it weren't true...

http://newsthump.com/2011/07/26/we’d-mu ... publicans/

[Topper]

Speaking of politics, this'd be funny if it weren't true...

http://newsthump.com/2011/07/26/we’d-mu ... publicans/

It's all Greek to me.

[Per]

Speaking of politics, this'd be funny if it weren't true...

http://newsthump.com/2011/07/26/we’d-mu ... publicans/

It's all Greek to me.

Good analogy.

[Strangelove]

Well that was outta left field....

[ClamRussel]

Well that was outta left field....