UFO’s and Dinosaurs vs the Bible

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Re: UFO’s and Dinosaurs vs the Bible

Post by The Brown Wizard »

Strangelove wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 5:01 pm
The Brown Wizard wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 3:49 pm
Or...

*puff puff puff....puff puff....*

There really was a great flood but instead of a boat it was a huge space ship saving a breeding population of every species of critter known to a middle eastern nomad like Noah

Hey...if they have mastered interstellar space travel why couldnt they round up a few trillion animals in the name of conservation?

God is an alien species manipulating the levers that control us all....I'm telling ya :mex:
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Re: UFO’s and Dinosaurs vs the Bible

Post by Per »

Strangelove wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 3:32 pm
Per wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 3:20 pm
But the Abrahamian religion (split into Jews/Christians/Muslims) is a tribal religion from the Middle East, conjured up by goat herding desert nomads.
So Christianity is all about Abraham, huh, weird I thought it was about some guy named Jesus, but what do I know...
Nah, Christianity isn't all about Abraham. Abraham is just the patriarch who decided to go all in on El, one of the many (but arguably the most powerful) gods of the Caananite pantheon. Abraham was not a pure monotheist though, more into a sort of monolatry, ie you worship one god while recognising the existence of others. Abraham decided to put all his eggs in one basket and just worship El. In return he was promised that his offspring would rule the entire region. It's kind of cool, back in Abraham's days God was someone you could wrestle with, pull the beard of and even invite home for dinner. We have really grown so much more distant to God since then. :(

Now, the Abrahamian version of Caananite religion has later split into several branches, with Judaism, Christianity and Islam being the major ones, but I guess you could also include eg Mandaeism, Rastafarianism and Mormonism (if you choose to see the latter as distinct from Christianity, which I think you should, as there are many differences).

Now, in Judaism they mainly go on about Moses, who was the Isis leader of his time, and King David, who was some sort of psychopath who intrigued his way to the throne by cozying up to the bipolar King Saul, marrying his daughter, getting really close to his son (who "he loved more dearly than any woman"... nudge nudge, wink, wink, saynomore... :roll: ), then setting up father against son and - voilá - ending up with the whole kingdom, so that he could ditch Saul's daughter and set up a whole harem of other wives. :thumbs:

In Christianity the main character is Jesus, but his story is told mainly by Paul, who had never met him, but conspired his way to the helm of the new church pushing aside Jesus's brother James, who was the head of the Christian congregation in Jerusalem, but is largely absent in the New Testament, as editted by Paul, and Mary of Magdala, who was most likely Jesus's wife.
The main beef they had with eachother is that James insisted that all Christians must obey Jewish laws, such as regarding kosher food, circumcision, etc, while Paul, trying to market this religion to the Romans, knew it would be so much harder if he had to insist they could not eat prosciutto, pancetta, prawns and lobster and had to cut of part of their dick to become members. You can find part of the debate in the letters, but of course editted to support Paul's point of view. The winner writes the history books.

The Muslims have the whole story reinterpreted by Muhammad, who was a businessman who frequently visited Jerusalem and there picked up the stories of both the Old and New Testaments. Now, he was illitterate, so he retold these stories his own way, and later had someone else write them down. It's basically the same stories, but filtered through his retelling of what "the arch angel Gabriel told him". Then they add on a bunch of rules and recoomendations that he had on all sorts of matters. Most of it copied from Jewish law, but sometimes with a slight slant. Oh, and a weird twist. At some point, when compiling the Quran, someone decided to sort the different suras (sp? basically means chapters, or whatever) by length, rather than chronologically, so the book gets a bit caleidoscopic.

The three main branches also disagree on the role of Jesus. The Christians say he was the Son of God, the Jews are split between those saying he was a rabbi and those saying he was a false prophet and the Muslims include him as a prophet.

I think the real fun ones are the other three I mentioned though. :D

Mandaeism is actually a church that Jesus most likely was a member of for at least some period of time. They worship John the Baptist as their main prophet/teacher! It's a smallish and very persecuted religion, only some 70,000 followers, and many of them still speak Aramaic, the maternal tongue of Jesus Christ! They sought refuge in Mesopotamia in the 1st century AD, as they were being persecuted by both Romans and Jews, and as that region later turned Muslim, they pointed to their belief in John, who is recognised as one of the Muslim prophets, and were recognised as one of the "peoples of the books" that Muslims are supposed to treat with respect. At least compared to how they treat pagans. :wink:
As a result of the Iraq war, things got a lot trickier for the Mandaens and only some 5000 remain in Iraq (yeah, some one at some point renamed Mesopotamia, bear with me...), with the rest sprinkled throughout the world, mostly in Iran, Jordan and Syria, but also with larger congregations in Sweden and Australia and some 2,500 in Worcester, MA.

John the Baptist is actually one of the main reasons I'm convinced that Jesus did exist, because it is a very awkward matter that they try to tiptoe around in the gospels. The fact that Jesus was baptized by John must have been widely known, and so they couldn't just omit it, but the different gospel writers try to find ways to not make it seem that Jesus in any way was a disciple or follower of John, even though that is really the only logical conclusion, given the baptism. Also, Jesus did not emerge as a leader until after the execution of John. John the Baptist was seen as a grave threat by the Romans, and so their local puppet, Herod, had him beheaded. Then after Jesus became the new leader of the Messianic movement, they had him executed as well. The ties between John and Jesus are many, and the Christian church even describe them as cousins. On their mothers' side. Now, if the whole Jesus story was pure fabrication, they could have just avoided the whole awkward baptism scene, but it clearly was an issue that needed to be addressed and explained away, so that points toward it actually having happened.

Just like their clumsy and awkward attempts to explain that a guy who is constantly referred to as "the Nazarene" or "from Nazareth" actually happened to be born in Bethlehem, as he would have to be in order to be the Messiah that the prophets had said would come. :roll:
Yeah, the tax registration story is weak. Pure bullshit. No such thing ever happened. Or, tax registration happened, several times, but quite logically and naturally people registered with the authorities where they lived. You don't have to travel cross country to fill out some freaking census form. Jeeezus. (see what I did there? ;) ) There is no known tax registration ever performed by the Romans that forced people to travel to other cities to register. It's hogwash. It's just that Paul desperately wanted Jesus's backstory to fit the prophecies. But I think we can rather firmly state that Jesus, the Nazarene, was born and raised in Nazareth. Just like his brothers and sisters.
But the very fact that Paul is trying to sell the Bethlehem story so hard is again evidence pointing to Jesus not being pure fabrication. If he were, they could just have let him be born and grow up in Bethelem, end of story. No need to make up tall stories about how a guy who everyone refers to as being from one part of the country actually, you'll never believe this, in fact came from a completely different part. :lol:

Rastafarianism is far out! Black people are the lost tribes of Israel. Originally all people were black (actually, modern science seems to confirm this...) but then some peoples turned a sickish pale colour from eating the rotting carcasses of dead animals (science actually suggests that when migrating to colder climates, people needed lighter skin to be able to absorb enough vitamin D, and so lighter skin colour was favoured by evolution, but pot-ay-to pot-ah-to). A true Rastafari does not eat meat, drink alcohol or do any drugs. Except ganja, of course, which is a gift from Jah, and brings us closer to him. Anyway, lots of black people have been taken into a Babylonian captivity in the New World, but the Messiah has arrived as Ras Tafari, aka Haile Selassie I, emperor of Ethiopia. He will release them and bring them back to Paradise in Ethiopia.
There are evil tongues that claim Haile Selassie is dead, but this is not true. He will return and reveal himself as the Messiah and all will be good. Sort of. A true scholar of this religion may have to correct me on some of the fine print, but... yeah. :look:

And then there is Mormonism, easily summed up as Jesus 2, the Wild West edition. :roll:

Yeah, I love religion. :thumbs:

I don't believe in any of it, but I find it utterly fascinating. :drink:
Last edited by Per on Tue May 26, 2020 5:23 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: UFO’s and Dinosaurs vs the Bible

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Holy flying fuck Per....that was a good tour through middle earth right there!

Just think about how absurd it all is that billions of people can actually believe in all this crap as anything more than fairy tales and dilusional fabrications by cave dwelling nut bars
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Re: UFO’s and Dinosaurs vs the Bible

Post by Chef Boi RD »

The Brown Wizard wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 3:42 am
Holy flying fuck Per....that was a good tour through middle earth right there!

Just think about how absurd it all is that billions of people can actually believe in all this crap as anything more than fairy tales and dilusional fabrications by cave dwelling nut bars
His story was absurd. No mention of Gandalf, Saruman or Sauron.

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Re: UFO’s and Dinosaurs vs the Bible

Post by Megaterio Llamas »

Per wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 2:55 am
Strangelove wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 3:32 pm
Per wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 3:20 pm
But the Abrahamian religion (split into Jews/Christians/Muslims) is a tribal religion from the Middle East, conjured up by goat herding desert nomads.
So Christianity is all about Abraham, huh, weird I thought it was about some guy named Jesus, but what do I know...
Nah, Christianity isn't all about Abraham. Abraham is just the patriarch who decided to go all in on El, one of the many (but arguably the most powerful) gods of the Caananite pantheon. Abraham was not a pure monotheist though, more into a sort of monolatry, ie you worship one god while recognising the existence of others. Abraham decided to put all his eggs in one basket and just worship El. In return he was promised that his offspring would rule the entire region. It's kind of cool, back in Abraham's days God was someone you could wrestle with, pull the beard of and even invite home for dinner. We have really grown so much more distant to God since then. :(

Now, the Abrahamian version of Caananite religion has later split into several branches, with Judaism, Christianity and Islam being the major ones, but I guess you could also include eg Mandaeism, Rastafarianism and Mormonism (if you choose to see the latter as distinct from Christianity, which I think you should, as there are many differences).

Now, in Judaism they mainly go on about Moses, who was the Isis leader of his time, and King David, who was some sort of psychopath who intrigued his way to the throne by cozying up to the bipolar King Saul, marrying his daughter, getting really close to his son (who "he loved more dearly than any woman"... nudge nudge, wink, wink, saynomore... :roll: ), then setting up father against son and - voilá - ending up with the whole kingdom, so that he could ditch Saul's daughter and set up a whole harem of other wives. :thumbs:

In Christianity the main character is Jesus, but his story is told mainly by Paul, who had never met him, but conspired his way to the helm of the new church pushing aside Jesus's brother James, who was the head of the Christian congregation in Jerusalem, but is largely absent in the New Testament, as editted by Paul, and Mary of Magdala, who was most likely Jesus's wife.
The main beef they had with eachother is that James insisted that all Christians must obey Jewish laws, such as regarding kosher food, circumcision, etc, while Paul, trying to market this religion to the Romans, knew it would be so much harder if he had to insist they could not eat prosciutto, pancetta, prawns and lobster and had to cut of part of their dick to become members. You can find part of the debate in the letters, but of course editted to support Paul's point of view. The winner writes the history books.

The Muslims have the whole story reinterpreted by Muhammad, who was a businessman who frequently visited Jerusalem and there picked up the stories of both the Old and New Testaments. Now, he was illitterate, so he retold these stories his own way, and later had someone else write them down. It's basically the same stories, but filtered through his retelling of what "the arch angel Gabriel told him". Then they add on a bunch of rules and recoomendations that he had on all sorts of matters. Most of it copied from Jewish law, but sometimes with a slight slant. Oh, and a weird twist. At some point, when compiling the Quran, someone decided to sort the different suras (sp? basically means chapters, or whatever) by length, rather than chronologically, so the book gets a bit caleidoscopic.

The three main branches also disagree on the role of Jesus. The Christians say he was the Son of God, the Jews are split between those saying he was a rabbi and those saying he was a false prophet and the Muslims include him as a prophet.

I think the real fun ones are the other three I mentioned though. :D

Mandaeism is actually a church that Jesus most likely was a member of for at least some period of time. They worship John the Baptist as their main prophet/teacher! It's a smallish and very persecuted religion, only some 70,000 followers, and many of them still speak Aramaic, the maternal tongue of Jesus Christ! They sought refuge in Mesopotamia in the 1st century AD, as they were being persecuted by both Romans and Jews, and as that region later turned Muslim, they pointed to their belief in John, who is recognised as one of the Muslim prophets, and were recognised as one of the "peoples of the books" that Muslims are supposed to treat with respect. At least compared to how they treat pagans. :wink:
As a result of the Iraq war, things got a lot trickier for the Mandaens and only some 5000 remain in Iraq (yeah, some one at some point renamed Mesopotamia, bear with me...), with the rest sprinkled throughout the world, mostly in Iran, Jordan and Syria, but also with larger congregations in Sweden and Australia and some 2,500 in Worcester, MA.

John the Baptist is actually one of the main reasons I'm convinced that Jesus did exist, because it is a very awkward matter that they try to tiptoe around in the gospels. The fact that Jesus was baptized by John must have been widely known, and so they couldn't just omit it, but the different gospel writers try to find ways to not make it seem that Jesus in any way was a disciple or follower of John, even though that is really the only logical conclusion, given the baptism. Also, Jesus did not emerge as a leader until after the execution of John. John the Baptist was seen as a grave threat by the Romans, and so their local puppet, Herod, had him beheaded. Then after Jesus became the new leader of the Messianic movement, they had him executed as well. The ties between John and Jesus are many, and the Christian church even describe them as cousins. On their mothers' side. Now, if the whole Jesus story was pure fabrication, they could have just avoided the whole awkward baptism scene, but it clearly was an issue that needed to be addressed and explained away, so that points toward it actually having happened.

Just like their clumsy and awkward attempts to explain that a guy who is constantly referred to as "the Nazarene" or "from Nazareth" actually happened to be born in Bethlehem, as he would have to be in order to be the Messiah that the prophets had said would come. :roll:
Yeah, the tax registration story is weak. Pure bullshit. No such thing ever happened. Or, tax registration happened, several times, but quite logically and naturally people registered with the authorities where they lived. You don't have to travel cross country to fill out some freaking census form. Jeeezus. (see what I did there? ;) ) There is no known tax registration ever performed by the Romans that forced people to travel to other cities to register. It's hogwash. It's just that Paul desperately wanted Jesus's backstory to fit the prophecies. But I think we can rather firmly state that Jesus, the Nazarene, was born and raised in Nazareth. Just like his brothers and sisters.
But the very fact that Paul is trying to sell the Bethlehem story so hard is again evidence pointing to Jesus not being pure fabrication. If he were, they could just have let him be born and grow up in Bethelem, end of story. No need to make up tall stories about how a guy who everyone refers to as being from one part of the country actually, you'll never believe this, in fact came from a completely different part. :lol:

Rastafarianism is far out! Black people are the lost tribes of Israel. Originally all people were black (actually, modern science seems to confirm this...) but then some peoples turned a sickish pale colour from eating the rotting carcasses of dead animals (science actually suggests that when migrating to colder climates, people needed lighter skin to be able to absorb enough vitamin D, and so lighter skin colour was favoured by evolution, but pot-ay-to pot-ah-to). A true Rastafari does not eat meat, drink alcohol or do any drugs. Except ganja, of course, which is a gift from Jah, and brings us closer to him. Anyway, lots of black people have been taken into a Babylonian captivity in the New World, but the Messiah has arrived as Ras Tafari, aka Haile Selassie I, emperor of Ethiopia. He will release them and bring them back to Paradise in Ethiopia.
There are evil tongues that claim Haile Selassie is dead, but this is not true. He will return and reveal himself as the Messiah and all will be good. Sort of. A true scholar of this religion may have to correct me on some of the fine print, but... yeah. :look:

And then there is Mormonism, easily summed up as Jesus 2, the Wild West edition. :roll:

Yeah, I love religion. :thumbs:

I don't believe in any of it, but I find it utterly fascinating. :drink:
Interesting post Per. It's highly speculative of course but i'm kind of of the belief that the Abrahamic generation were already monotheists when they arrived in Canaan from Mesopotamia. Certainly the bible draws more from Mesopotamian myths and legends than Levantine ones. I think Abraham may have come into contact with Median or other early Iranian monotheists while still in Upper Mesopotamia and merged their beliefs with local Mesopotamian ones. It was possibly these new beliefs that prompted the other Syro Hittite peoples of the Paddam Aram and surrounding area to force Abraham and his flock to cross the Euphrates and head for the 'promised land.' It's hard to pinpoint the exact location where Abraham's tribe originated, the so called Ur of the Chaldeans but local people to this day believe that it was Sanliurfa, Turkey. That's the ancient city of Edessa, which of course was an early hotbed of Syriac Christianity and the capital of first Christian Kingdom in history, the Kingdom of Osroene. The early Jewish chieftains sent for wives from back home in Mesopotamia at first because they didn't feel local Canaanite girls were suitable.

The Mandeans are remarkable indeed. They were known as St John's Christians to early Catholic missionaries before they figured out the were not Christian Gnostics like the Cathars of Europe at all, but more like the Manicheans of old. They need to live near water to perform their daily baptizing rituals. And yes, they are highly endangered. Iraq is like a living museum of ancient cultures and it was predictable that they would all be destroyed once GW Bush launched Operation Iraqi Freedom. Every entry into the region by the Western powers since the Crusades has been met with vicious persecution of the ME religious minorities and this would certainly be no different. And thanks Sweden for stepping up and more or less on it's own saving these ancient peoples and cultures from extinction, God knows Canada and the US haven't lifted a finger to help.
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Re: UFO’s and Dinosaurs vs the Bible

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Re: UFO’s and Dinosaurs vs the Bible

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Strange is going to hit the character limit on his rebuttal today!

Per, you forgot the JWs for gods' sake.

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Re: UFO’s and Dinosaurs vs the Bible

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Then there is Moroni....a full on alien 'angel'!

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Re: UFO’s and Dinosaurs vs the Bible

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5thhorseman wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 6:59 am
Strange is going to hit the character limit on his rebuttal today!

Per, you forgot the JWs for gods' sake.
You mean for Jehovah's sake, eh? ;)



But... yeahno... I didn't go into the many different flavours of Christianity. I just singled out the Mormons, that imho is a different animal. I mean, they even have their own book! It's basically a sequel to the New Testament; after JC got killed in the Middle East his dad sent him to the injuns instead.

But all the Christian brands? Sheesh!

I mean, there's the Coptic church, that did not get into the Nicean creed thingy, so they branched off first. Then there's the Gnostics that were declared heretics at the time of the Nicean creed and mostly got burnt on stakes and such if they did not repent, so they kind of died out. Then there was the rift between East Rome and West Rome that divided Christianity into Orthodox and Catholics. Then there's a bit of a rift between the Greek Orthodox and the Russian Orthodox, albeit I think they have almost patched things up. Then there was the reformation that created a whole plethora of different Protestant groups: Calvinists, Reformed, Lutherans, Baptists, Anabaptists, Anglicans, Pietists, Methodists, Presbyterians, Episkopalians, 7th Day Adventists, the Pentacostal assemblies, Maranata, Quakers, Shakers, Amish, Amana, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mennonites, Apostolics, the Salvation Army, the Plymouth Brothers.... it just goes on and on and on. :(
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Re: UFO’s and Dinosaurs vs the Bible

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The Brown Wizard wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 3:42 am
Holy flying fuck Per....that was a good tour through middle earth right there!
Chef Boi RD wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 6:17 am
His story was absurd. No mention of Gandalf, Saruman or Sauron.
Nothing like Story Time with Per! :D

I call his latest tall tale "Blind Leading the Blind".

Saaay, I wonder if Jesus was referring to Per in Matthew 23: 13...
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Re: UFO’s and Dinosaurs vs the Bible

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5thhorseman wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 6:59 am
Strange is going to hit the character limit on his rebuttal today!
Nah, that would make Per's distraction a 100% success, but he...

Doesn't. Fool. Me.

See, ol' Per is trying to bury my response to his Nordic "Hel" bullshit.

He usually posts a bunch of meaningless graphs and spreadsheets.

But in this case he went the Story Time route.

(chock full of of the kind of bullshit he can simply write off as him being speculative + humourous)
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Re: UFO’s and Dinosaurs vs the Bible

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Megaterio Llamas wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 6:46 am
Interesting post Per. It's highly speculative of course...
And the Understatement of the Year Award goes to... :mrgreen:
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Re: UFO’s and Dinosaurs vs the Bible

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.
I hope for Per's sake UK doesn’t read his bit about Muhammad.

(he has connections in Sweden) :look:
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Re: UFO’s and Dinosaurs vs the Bible

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Strangelove wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 1:52 pm
.
I hope for Per's sake UK doesn’t read his bit about Muhammad.

(he has connections in Sweden) :look:
UK might have sheeshed his last sheesha...where else would he be? We've been smoking him out of his cave for months now to no avail
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Re: UFO’s and Dinosaurs vs the Bible

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:lol:
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