Toronto

The primary goal of this site is to provide mature, meaningful discussion about the Vancouver Canucks. However, we all need a break some time so this forum is basically for anything off-topic, off the wall, or to just get something off your chest! This forum is named after poster Creeper, who passed away in July of 2011 and was a long time member of the Canucks message board community.

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Per
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Re: Toronto

Post by Per » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:29 am

Strangelove wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:55 pm
One might point out here that most of the great civilizations of history were not democratic.
Fair point. But we have evolved, haven't we? And many of them had traces of democracy; eg Athens, Rome, the Vikings...
Strangelove wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:55 pm
One might point out that capital punishment =/= undemocratic =/= uncivilized.
This would depend on what definitions one would use, and in all fairness, their are multiple definitions of both democracy and civilisation, which have very different criteria. Are we talking about "thin democracy" (the right to vote) or "thick democracy" (also including basic liberties and rights), and in the latter case, what rights/liberties do we consider essential for a democracy? In recent years (basically post WWII) it has become common to include the right to life as a basic right, because if you are not allowed to live, other rights hardly matter, do they?
Strangelove wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:55 pm
You chose The Economist's Democracy Index because it shares your view/bias.
I suppose in part, but also because it is a highly respected and widespread definition.
Strangelove wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:55 pm
"Democracy" can be defined in many ways and I'd say The Economist is running with what many would call "Social Democracy".
I disagree. The Economist is staunchly liberal, in the traditional sense, which to modern Americans probably could best be explained as libertarian. They frown on socialism (of which social democracy is a branch) as much as they frown on nationalism. The Economist backed both Reagan and Thatcher, since these two were reliable free trade, small government proponents. They of course oppose Trump, but that has nothing to do with the left-right scale, it's because he is sabotaging free trade and infringing on civil liberties, such as freedom of press and freedom of movement, not to mention that he disrespects the independence of the legislative and judicial branches. But I digress.
The Economist, like the founding fathers of the USA, are proponents of classical liberalism; ie free trade, freedom of speech, free press, universal suffrage, respect for private property, independent judiciary, etc. I would assume Paul Ryan agrees with them on most points.
Strangelove wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:55 pm
For example, the fact a country employs capital punishment would be enough to push a country here from .799 Flawed to .80 Full.
And you base this on what exactly? There is no mentioning of capital punishment at all in the criteria listed under methodology. I mean, we all know that capital punishment is used extensively in authoritarian countries and extremely rare in democracies, but it is not listed among the things the Economist rate in order to produce their index. https://www.eiu.com/topic/democracy-index

The USA was considered a full democracy as late as 2015, and the Economist lists a number of trends that they see have eroded the state of democracy, and point out that this assessment was done prior to the 2016 election:
  • l declining popular participation in elections and politics
    l weaknesses in the functioning of government
    l declining trust in institutions
    l dwindling appeal of mainstream representative parties
    l growing influence of unelected, unaccountable institutions and expert bodies
    l widening gap between political elites and electorates
    l decline in media freedoms
    l erosion of civil liberties, including curbs on free speech
Strangelove wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:55 pm
You're using a source that penalizes level-of-democracy due to CP... to try to prove CP is not civilized! :wow:
Actually, no. This is a complete fabrication. A strawman, if you want. :drink:

The Economist Intelligence Unit’s index of democracy, on a 0 to 10 scale, is based on the ratings for 60
indicators, grouped into five categories: I Electoral process and pluralism; II the Functioning
of government; III Political participation; IV Political culture and V Civil liberties.
Each category has a rating on a 0 to 10 scale, and the overall Index is the simple average of the five category indexes.

From my understanding, any reference to capital punishment ought to be in category V Civil liberties. Let's take a look, shall we?
V Civil liberties
44. Is there a free electronic media?
45. Is there a free print media?
46. Is there freedom of expression and protest (bar only generally accepted restrictions, such as
banning advocacy of violence)?
47. Is media coverage robust? Is there open and free discussion of public issues, with a reasonable diversity of opinions?
48. Are there political restrictions on access to the Internet?
49. Are citizens free to form professional organisations and trade unions?
50. Do institutions provide citizens with the opportunity to petition government to redress grievances?
51. The use of torture by the state.
52. The degree to which the judiciary is independent of government influence.
Consider the views of international legal and judicial watchdogs. Have the courts ever issued an
important judgement against the government, or a senior government official?
53. The degree of religious tolerance and freedom of religious expression.
Are all religions permitted to operate freely, or are some restricted? Is the right to worship
permitted both publicly and privately? Do some religious groups feel intimidated by others, even if
the law requires equality and protection?
54. The degree to which citizens are treated equally under the law.
Consider whether favoured groups or individuals are spared prosecution under the law.
55. Do citizens enjoy basic security?
56. Extent to which private property rights are protected and private business is free from undue
government influence
57. Extent to which citizens enjoy personal freedoms.
Consider gender equality, right to travel, choice of work and study.
58. Popular perceptions on protection of human rights; proportion of the population that think that
basic human rights are well-protected.
59. There is no significant discrimination on the basis of people’s race, colour or religious beliefs.
60. Extent to which the government invokes new risks and threats as an excuse for curbing civil
liberties.
They do mention torture, but they do not mention capital punishment. :hmmm:
Strangelove wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:55 pm
BTW Freedom House measures democracy differently:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_in_the_World
Using their definitions/factors, USA is right up there with all the other top countries in level-of-democracy.
Yeah, well, they are actually pretty close. They just use three categories instead of the gliding scale the Economist uses, so their cut off is at a slightly lower point.
As I said, in the list of countries that execute people, Japan, Botswana and the USA are the odd ones out. Apparently Taiwan as well.
I double checked, and they share the same green hue as the other three in the Economist's index as well. I guess I just missed them because they are such a teeny tiny country. The rest of the countries on that list are clearly not democracies.
And if you make a list of democracies, you'll note that hardly any of them execute people.
Strangelove wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:55 pm
Anyway, employing capital punishment does not make a country less civilized... unless one holds that particular bias.
Well, I think so. And it seems the UN General Assembly does as well, as they have repeatedly called for an end to executions.
Strangelove wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:55 pm
BTW The Economist concludes that less than 5% of the world’s population currently lives in a “full democracy”
... and that 89 countries experienced a decline in their total score over the last year, while only 27 saw an improvement.
A lot of this has to do with less trust in the electoral process around the world.
Yup. That's a fair summary.
Strangelove wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:55 pm
(Norwegians must have their collective head up their collective butt) :wink:
A total non sequitor, but something we Swedes have been saying for centuries. :look:
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Except when donating blood.

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Topper
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Re: Toronto

Post by Topper » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:40 am

After nearly 20 years as a subscriber, I dropped the Economist when a new editor took the helm a couple of years ago and the was a marked change in the bias of the the rag.
Over the Internet, you can pretend to be anyone or anything.

I'm amazed that so many people choose to be complete twats.

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Re: Toronto

Post by BladesofSteel » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:59 am

micky107 wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:54 am
Oh, believe me my friend, I didn't forget.
The fact Clifford Olsen lived so many years at the tax payer's expense
is a matter of extreme embarrassment to me.
Sorry for being such a barbarian. My bad.
If you are suggesting it would cost tax payers less to have convicted inmates executed, you aren't familiar with the Canadian judicial system. It is in fact more cost effective to imprison someone for life than to go through the appeal system.

Not that this should have any baring on the capitol punishment debate.

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Re: Toronto

Post by micky107 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:52 am

I do know that is true.
"evolution"

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5thhorseman
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Re: Toronto

Post by 5thhorseman » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:42 pm

https://www.abbynews.com/national-news/ ... pert-says/
Mubin Shaikh, an expert on counterterrorism, says he thinks a no rental list would be a reactive measure that would have minimal impact.

If there are restrictions on rentals, people can still borrow or steal vehicles, he notes.

“A criminal will try to take whatever they can, however they can,” he says.

“Will it deter the determined attacker? Probably not.”

“At the end of the day, it’s impossible (to prevent). We live in an open society and vehicles are in our proximity all the time. That’s normal city life.”
Seriously, some reporter actually had to ask a counter-terrorism expert this question?

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Per
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Re: Toronto

Post by Per » Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:34 am

Huge respect for the courage and competence shown by the policeman. :thumbs:
Whatever you do, always give 100 %!
Except when donating blood.

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Re: Toronto

Post by Uncle dans leg » Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:18 am

2 taps center mass and one between the eyes would've been ideal
nobody forks...with the jesus

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Re: Toronto

Post by Aaronp18 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:07 am

Uncle dans leg wrote:
Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:18 am
2 taps center mass and one between the eyes would've been ideal
This is the easy way out, however it's then much more difficult to figure out what his motive was. And at the time they weren't sure if this event was part of something bigger.

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Re: Toronto

Post by Strangelove » Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:21 pm

Per wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:29 am
Strangelove wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:55 pm
You're using a source that penalizes level-of-democracy due to CP... to try to prove CP is not civilized! :wow:
Actually, no. This is a complete fabrication. A strawman, if you want. :drink:

:::LIST OF INDICATORS:::

They do mention torture, but they do not mention capital punishment. :hmmm:
You are absolutely right... they do not care one iota about capital punishment when they measure levels of democracy!

So why then did YOU cite those very measurements as 'proof' that capital punishment is uncivilized:
Per wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:52 pm
Strangelove wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:58 am
Per wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:22 am
micky107 wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:49 am
The act was on purpose. That's all that matters.
Cannot use mental illness as an excuse.
Lethal injection. No trial, no air-play for the murderer.
No martyr scenario.
You forget that Canada is a civilised country.

:::MAPS OF DEATH PENALTY COUNTRIES:::
So America and all those others countries are not civilized? :wow:
Check the chart showing countries that executed people in 2016:

:::LIST:::

None of the above qualify as full democracies according to The Economist's democracy index. Japan, Botswana and the USA come close, but most of the countries on this list are dictatorships, or to borrow an expression from President Donald Trump, s--t h--e countries. No real democracy kills its own citizens.

:::The Economist's Democracy Index:::
Despite all your silly maps/charts/lists/links, in the end it’s just your opinion that capital punishment is uncivilized.

That is all I have been trying to make clear to the audience, cheerio old chum...
____
GO CANUCKS GO!!!

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