The Brexit disaster

[Strangelove]

You know Strange, as some one with a wife whose parents were British immigrants and having been to the UK (and the rest of Europe) many times, I find this has to be the most stupid of many stupid post you recently have posted here.

I used to think you were intelligent. I stand corrected.

And how does this make you feel?

Could it be you are in denial about the EU's march toward socialism?

[Topper]

The resolve of Sheffield Steel

[Strangelove]

When I lived in England everyone wanted a Polish builder cos they did superior work. If you wanted to get a job done for cheap, hire one of the local asians, but they'll circumvent building code and all that.

Interesting. I had heard from relatives in the building trades that they upset the apple cart for cost comparables. Didnt hear they brought the better game though.

Have you been to England?

The country of single glazed windows and visible pipes on the outside of buildings?

It'd be pretty hard to build worse then they do...

It will begin to immediately improve after Brexit, thank God Britain decided to turn her back on socialism...

Right, except that the EU was the brainchild of right wing politicians... Winston Churchill in 1946 Calling for a United States of Europe and Monnet and Schuman helping form the European Coal and Steel Community that formed the foundation of what would become the EU.

Of the 11 founding fathers of the EU, three (Spinelli, Spaak and Mansholt) were left wing, Beyen was a liberal and the rest were right wingers (Adenauer, de Gasperi and Hallstein were Christian Democrats, Churchill conservative, Bech "Party of the Right" and Monnet and Schuman were working for de Gaulle's Popular Republican Movement).

No one cares what it was meant to be in yesteryear.

We were talking about what it has become.

Not to mention that the EPP, which is a right wing umbrella group for conservatives, liberal conservatives and christian democrats, is the biggest group in the European Parliament as well as the home base of President Juncker.



If you talk to eg Italian communists or Greek or Spanish socialists they'll tell you that the EU is run by unfettered market liberalism.

I'm always fascinated at how you try to downplay socialism in Europe.

This reminds me of what they call, in the vernacular of today's American parlance, "some kinda commie plot".

Come on Per, you know as well as I do that those folks are greatly outnumbered by lefties in the European Parliament...

[Per]

Come on Per, you know as well as I do that those folks are greatly outnumbered by lefties in the European Parliament...

Seats in the European Parliament:


Perhaps the percentage gives a better view:


Even if you add the greens to the socialists/leftists, you don't get a majority, except once, in 1989.
And the trend since then has been falling.

Not to mention that since they started letting the EP elect the President of the European Commission, all presidents have been EPP members, except one, who was a liberal.

[Strangelove]

The lefties in that graph are in red, green, yellow and gray.

I say the EU has been headed left for over 10 years and your graph proves it.

Interesting, no black "far right" since 1989 and no baby blue hardcore right since 2004...

EDIT: I see you edited to add that first graph, good.

[Mickey107]

[rats19]

FTR... I’m with Doc... 100%

[Topper]

Now I understand Per's concern

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/absolutel ... -1.5051205

[Strangelove]

Now I understand Perv's concern

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/absolutel ... -1.5051205

Fixed.

[Per]

The lefties in that graph are in red, green, yellow and gray.

The grey are not affiliated with a party group. You need at least 25 MEPs from a minimum of 7 countries to form a party group. They could be anywhere on the spectrum, which is probably why they have been put in the middle, but most years they include the far right, since they have typically had problems reaching the minimum seven countries requirement.

European liberals are considered centre-right, sort of like the BC liberals. They are certainly not socialists!
This is also confirmed by them being placed to the right of the unaffiliated group, that has been placed in the middle.

Interesting, no black "far right" since 1989 and no baby blue hardcore right since 2004...

As I said above, the far right has often not met the requirement of having members from a minimum of 7 countries to form a party group. Thay have also in recent years tended to relabel themselves eurosceptics. Also, Fidesz (sp?) from Hungary at some point managed to infiltrate the EPP group, but there is now a rising number of other EPP members that demand they be excluded from the group.
Different parties on the national levels have drifted between the three conservative (blue) party groups. Eg the British conservatives that are dark blue at the beginning and in the latest graphs but belonged to the EPP in between.

Btw, as a European it's kind of funny noticing how the US republicans are described as a red party! Conservatives are always considered blue here.

[Per]

FTR... I’m with Doc... 100%

What! You believe that liberals are socialist!

Read up!

Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on liberty and equality.[1][2][3] Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but they generally support civil rights, democracy, secularism, gender equality, racial equality, internationalism, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, and free markets.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism

As you may know, socialists tend to be a bit iffy about the concepts of free speech and free press and they definitely have problems with free markets, which is at the very core of liberalism. And it is this latter difference that makes liberals end up on the right side of the spectrum.

And especially in Europe (same source as above):

In the United States, liberalism is associated with the welfare-state policies of the New Deal programme of the Democratic administration of Pres. Franklin D. Roosevelt, whereas in Europe it is more commonly associated with a commitment to limited government and laissez-faire economic policies.

ie what in the US often is referred to as libertarian values.
In Europe we still call this liberalism.

A difference between liberals and conservatives is that whereas liberals are generally internationalists, conservatives tend to be nationalists, and this sometimes spills over in a misguided belief in protectionism (as in the case of Brexit), whereas liberals always are free market proponents.
I mean, that's where liberalism got started, as a revolt against government regulation of trade, information and religion.
Remember the Boston tea party? Remember what it was all about? Tariffs. An import tax on tea. The American revolution was a liberal revolution, and the declaration of independence, the US constitution and the bill of rights are all based on liberal values.

And this is what liberalism is still about. At least in Europe.

Socialists, however, are firm believers in strong governments and regulated markets, and this goes against the very core concepts of liberalism.

[Per]

Now I understand Perv's concern

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/absolutel ... -1.5051205

Fixed.

I realize that people with a frail ego often think name calling and ad hominem attacks somehow empower them, and can even be used instead of sound arguments, so I won't hold it against you. I just thought more of you. My bad.

Yet I do find the choice "perv" rather an amusing choice of insult from someone who calls himself "strange love".

Mazel Tov, doc. I hope you will soon feel better again.

[Strangelove]

Oh yes the Great Strangelove has "a frail ego"!

You are as guilty of ad hominem attacks as anyone Perv.

You lefties are always trying to change definitions.

(commie plot as they say)

Today's grays are indeed lefties and I noticed you decided to skip yellow...

[Per]

Today's grays are indeed lefties and I noticed you decided to skip yellow...

Skipped yellow?!

Why...? I mean...! Seriously?

The yellow indicates liberals!

Haven't I.... I mean? Can't you read?
Is there something wrong with your eyesight? Or comprehension?

I just explained, extensively, why European liberals, much like BC liberals, are to be considered centre-right.
And that there is no way a liberal should ever be confused with a socialist.

Please scroll back up and try again.

Skipped yellow...!

[Strangelove]

Well some of the yellow bars on your graph represent the European Radical Alliance

... formally known as the Rainbow Group, a bunch of tree-huggers of course:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Radical_Alliance

The latest yellow bars in your graph represent the Alliance of Liberals and Democrats for Europe:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alliance_ ... for_Europe

And:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alliance_ ... _of_Europe

Wikipedia calls these folks "centre" (not centre-right as you claim)

... but the fact they get painted yellow infers your graph maker considers them lefties like the Rainbow Group.

Also, I spent some time the other day reading and clicking links on those Alliance pages

... and yeeeup they're lefties for sure.

You can play around with definitions and be deceptive all you like, but the evidence is there for all to see.

I don't feel like getting into a big thing with you on this one Pinko Per

... nobody who reads here cares and we're not going to change each other's minds.