Kneecaps

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Re: Kneecaps

Postby ukcanuck » Tue Jun 17, 2014 11:12 pm

Topper wrote:Having taught at a Junior College, I have experience issuing tests. I gave quizzes often and then on tests I gave the same problem as on the quiz, but reversed the question and had the students working backwards through the problem. Quizzes gave the students and me feedback on where more work was needed and we could do that in reviews. By having to work through a problem front to back and back to front, you ensure the students understand what they are learning.

My take on reports is that little knowledge is retained, the value is in learning to research and find sources. To this day I maintain my own extensive library for both my chosen professions.

A comment on competition. My 4 yr old son races BMX at our local club. They give out ribbons at the end of each race night to all the kids but 1st (blue), 2nd (red), 3rd (white) and place (green). End of season there are similar trophies. Each kid leaves with something, but competition and placings are honoured. At 3, my guy was happy just to leave the evening race with a ribbon, at 4 he wants that blue ribbon.

Interestingly, a peer of my son's, who's one parents is a teacher, the other a school psychologist/troubled kid councillor, is hauled off home before the ribbons are handed out because they don't believe in competition.


You are not describing a standardized test. However, many teachers do use individualized tests and quizzes tailored to the learning objective of particular classes all the time, it is called summative assessment. But, it is a static assessment. It only proves they knew the material on that occasion. Having them work through a problem backwards like you mention, if it is a math, physics, or chemistry problem is useful to practice the use of formulae though...

Liberal arts however, requires critical thinking, cultural knowledge and social significance. For that, formative assessment is required. Working on projects, using different skills, learning by inference...

A classic example is a Gr 12 History project using the lyrics in Billy Joel's "We Didn't Start the Fire" to create a book using at least one page per line of song. an awesome song that covers modern western history from Harry Truman to AIDS. It covers all the major social and political themes, and in creating the book (including proper binding) the student not only learns a lot more than revising for a test from a textbook, but also internalizes the information and takes it a step further in creating his or her own opinions and their relationship with the data.

Unfortunately, you cannot easily standardize that kind of assessment, and frankly, John Q Public, is too busy and uninterested in thinking about it anyway. Can you imagine having to pay someone to read every one of those books in all of British Columbia's history courses?....wait...

This is why loaded garbage like the Fraser Institute has followers, everyone can read a league table. we all know what a blue ribbon means...

Provincial Exams and or GCSE exams provide easily digested numbers but in the end its just a blue ribbon...
meaningless. Johnny knew a fact today...

Did you know BTW, that top universities like Oxbridge no longer use high school exams as entrance criteria? They found that it is a poor indicator of a student's potential for success.

1 Provincial Exams have to be dumbed down enough so that the majority of students can pass it, or parents get pissed off and think its the system's fault.

2 Schools knowing that their performance is judged by results plays eligibility games, fast tracking smarter kids and delaying or disqualifying the dummies before hand.

3 Teacher's knowing that their job performance evaluation is at stake, teach to the test, omitting knowledge that they know wont be on the test... Science ten in particular (a provincially examined course) is an issue since the curriculum has Chem, Physics, Biology and Earth Science and not enough classroom hours in a year to cover all four strands effectively. Guess which one typically gets left out?

and finally,

4, students typically forget half the information they put down on the test 5 minutes after leaving the exam hall.
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Re: Kneecaps

Postby Topper » Tue Jun 17, 2014 11:44 pm

isle_nuck wrote:Haha...like I said I definitely have some whiny colleagues!

I like your quizzes then reverse test idea. Did you ever feel that the students were just studying off the quiz and not actually studying the material going into the test? If so, did that bother you? Or did you find that the quiz help focus their efforts leading into the test?

Btw - what professions are you in? Are you still teaching at the junior college?

I taught geology as part of an environmental sciences program. Quite a bit of chemistry, unfortunately the students had a very weak back ground and few even knew of the periodic table.

The department head was an eco activist and imparted his bias on the students, he was fired half way through the term for taking his students on unscheduled field trips to protest rallies he had organized against a proposed hydro project.

The reversal of questions works extremely well with sciences but is critical to balanced teaching of social studies and history to remove political bias. It gets students to view issues from both sides where they can form their own opinions. It especially works if case studies are chosen where perceived evil trumped a perceived good and vice a versa. Much like a debating class where someone has to justify Germany's second world war actions. Make the issue as blind as possible, tell the kids there was cut throat group monopolizing the banking sector with spreading tentacles into all businesses and wrestling control and oversight away from government officials.....let the kids have at it and see who starts designing ovens.

LOL, UK teaches Billie Joel to the kids as deep social commentary and still hasn't read the Fraser Institutes. Guidelines for interpretation.
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Re: Kneecaps

Postby ukcanuck » Tue Jun 17, 2014 11:52 pm

Topper wrote:
isle_nuck wrote:Haha...like I said I definitely have some whiny colleagues!

I like your quizzes then reverse test idea. Did you ever feel that the students were just studying off the quiz and not actually studying the material going into the test? If so, did that bother you? Or did you find that the quiz help focus their efforts leading into the test?

Btw - what professions are you in? Are you still teaching at the junior college?

I taught geology as part of an environmental sciences program. Quite a bit of chemistry, unfortunately the students had a very weak back ground and few even knew of the periodic table.

The department head was an eco activist and imparted his bias on the students, he was fired half way through the term for taking his students on unscheduled field trips to protest rallies he had organized against a proposed hydro project.

The reversal of questions works extremely well with sciences but is critical to balanced teaching of social studies and history to remove political bias. It gets students to view issues from both sides where they can form their own opinions. It especially works if case studies are chosen where perceived evil trumped a perceived good and vice a versa. Much like a debating class where someone has to justify Germany's second world war actions. Make the issue as blind as possible, tell the kids there was cut throat group monopolizing the banking sector with spreading tentacles into all businesses and wrestling control and oversight away from government officials.....let the kids have at it and see who starts designing ovens.

LOL, UK teaches Billie Joel to the kids as deep social commentary and still hasn't read the Fraser Institutes. Guidelines for interpretation.

Nice oversimplification, you are good at that :)
Have you bothered to read the lyrics?

Why would anyone bother to read biased pseudoscience?
But since you have bothered perhaps you will read another viewpoint and perhaps address the issue?
http://bctf.ca/publications/newsmagarticle.aspx?id=7914
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Fraser_Institute
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/04/26/koch-brothers-fraser-institute_n_1456223.html

The Fraser Institute has an agenda and its in line with the money that pays for it...what were you saying about a group monopolizing the truth in pre war Germany?
Last edited by ukcanuck on Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:45 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Kneecaps

Postby ukcanuck » Tue Jun 17, 2014 11:56 pm

so you don't hurt yourself on the search button

Courtesy of Billy Joel..

Harry Truman, Doris Day, Red China, Johnnie Ray,
South Pacific, Walter Winchell, Joe DiMaggio,
Joe McCarthy, Richard Nixon, Studebaker, television
North Korea, South Korea, Marilyn Monroe.

Rosenbergs, H-bomb, Sugar Ray, Panmunjom
Brando, "The King and I" and "The Catcher in the Rye," Eisenhower, vaccine, England's got a new queen, Marciano, Liberace, Santayana goodbye!



Joseph Stalin, Malenkov, Nasser and Prokofiev
Rockefeller, Campanella, Communist Bloc,
Roy Cohn, Juan Peron, Toscanini, Dacron,
Dien Bien Phu falls, "Rock Around the Clock"
Einstein, James Dean, Brooklyn's got a winning team,
Davy Crockett, Peter Pan, Elvis Presley, Disneyland,
Bardot, Budapest, Alabama, Krushchev,
Princess Grace, "Peyton Place", trouble in the Suez.



Little Rock, Pasternak, Mickey Mantle, Kerouac,
Sputnik, Chou En-Lai, "Bridge on the River Kwai"
Lebanon, Charles de Gaulle, California baseball,
Starkweather homicide, children of thalidomide, Oh-oh-oh.

Buddy Holly, "Ben Hur", space monkey, Mafia,
Hula hoops, Castro, Edsel is a no-go,
U-2, Syngman Rhee, payola and Kennedy,
Chubby Checker, "Psycho", Belgians in the Congo.



Hemingway, Eichmann, "Stranger in a Strange Land"
Dylan, Berlin, Bay of Pigs invasion,
"Lawrence of Arabia", British Beatlemania,
Ole Miss, John Glenn, Liston beats Patterson,
Pope Paul, Malcolm X, British politician sex,
JFK, blown away, what else do I have to say?



Birth control, Ho Chi Minh, Richard Nixon back again,
Moonshot, Woodstock, Watergate, punk rock,
Begin, Reagan, Palestine, terror on the airline,
Ayatollah's in Iran, Russians in Afghanistan,
"Wheel of Fortune", Sally Ride, heavy metal suicide,
Foreign debts, homeless vets, AIDS, crack, Bernie Goetz, Hypodermics on the shore, China's under martial law, Rock and roller cola wars, I can't take it anymore.



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Re: Kneecaps

Postby Topper » Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:51 am

ukcanuck wrote:Why would anyone bother to read biased pseudoscience?
But since you have bothered perhaps you will read another viewpoint and perhaps address the issue?
http://bctf.ca/publications/newsmagarticle.aspx?id=7914
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Fraser_Institute
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/04/26/koch-brothers-fraser-institute_n_1456223.html

The Fraser Institute has an agenda and its in line with the money that pays for it...what were you saying about a group monopolizing the truth in pre war Germany?

The NDP

The David Suzuki Foundation
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Re: Kneecaps

Postby Topper » Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:52 am

ukcanuck wrote:Have you bothered to read the lyrics?

Talk about glossing things over.
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Re: Kneecaps

Postby ukcanuck » Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:10 am

Topper wrote:
ukcanuck wrote:Have you bothered to read the lyrics?

Talk about glossing things over.

That's the whole point Topper.
The kids spend the year researching and creating their own resource book.
It creates some majorly informed young people.

It's similar to your idea about giving the background to the national socialist movement in prewar Germany,
I just don't see how you would argue that this form of assessment isn't better than a written test.

Just the logistics alone makes testing an inferior approach.
I've written, invigilated and marked internal final exams and I've taken courses on marking IGCSE external exams. The questions have to presented in a generalized way because teachers and students are human beings and have different approaches and learning styles.

If questions are too specific then that creates an unfair advantage or disadvantage.
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Re: Kneecaps

Postby ukcanuck » Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:33 am

Topper wrote:
ukcanuck wrote:Why would anyone bother to read biased pseudoscience?
But since you have bothered perhaps you will read another viewpoint and perhaps address the issue?
http://bctf.ca/publications/newsmagarticle.aspx?id=7914
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Fraser_Institute
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/04/26/koch-brothers-fraser-institute_n_1456223.html

The Fraser Institute has an agenda and its in line with the money that pays for it...what were you saying about a group monopolizing the truth in pre war Germany?

The NDP

The David Suzuki Foundation

Because the NDP and Suzuki are biased in their own way doesn't let the FI off the hook.
It's patrons don't want big government and or government regulation even though they claim they just present the numbers.
It's still a pea and shell game.

It's a bit like saying the meat in a mcdonalds burger is 100 percent beef...yeah the part that is beef is 100 percent. What about the rest of the pattie?

The top of that list is dominated by private schools who cherry pick the best and brightest students. They have resources that public schools only dream about and they score better on a standardized test designed for their demographic.

It's unfair by its nature and therefore does not give a good indication of how schools perform.

As for judging teachers with them, it's horrible.

The UK has a slightly different method, using observations of entire schools
So that the teachers are judged in the environment they are in.
A teacher in a juvenile detention school will never have the same test results as a prep school. But getting a drug dealing street gangster to sit in a chair and right his name on a test without attacking another student or adult in the room is a very very good result for that teacher.

Here in the UAE they have a checklist that myself, each department head, head of school and head master each fill out and averaged to give a percent score and year end bonuses are attached to that percentage.
The cut off was 96 percent....almost no one but a few reached the cutoff so the school is no longer contractually obligated to pay out bonuses.


The contract doesn't state how evaluations are done and it's an open contract that only they really have to sign.
And good luck with a finding a lawyer, there aren't courts here anyway.
There is a Council that reports to the sheik and unilaterally makes it as they go along lol.

I'm not complaining mind you, It's the kids who are the real judge and jury anyway. If you aren't teaching them then you will find out what kind of teacher you are pretty quick.

At the grade twelve level they will get you fired if they think you aren't giving them the best chance to pass the external exam through Cambridge.
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Re: Kneecaps

Postby Topper » Wed Jun 18, 2014 10:33 am

Nothing like final exams to make students work under pressure with a deadline. Welcome to the real world.

UK, things need to be quantitative for comparative use and establishing trends. Grading lil' bitchelli's book report this year vs lil' ukulele's report next near is not possible. How are you grading school performance and whether they are improving or declining?

Keep spouting off about the Fraser Institutes ranking because you continue to show you have no clue how the authors recommend they be used.

So if government were to cut off funding for private schools, will parents who send their children to private schools receive a tax break?

Big government is unsustainable. Governments main responsibility is to create a regulatory framework for businesses to thrive.

Why the hell do teachers on the picket line assume they are my friend, smiling, waving frantically, asking me to honk my horn...... they get a reaction from me, not the one they hoped for.

Also noted this morning that CUPE sympathy picket are out here and the folks carrying them are doing laps around the block in front of other businesses and private residences. I'd be calling the cops if they were in front of my home or business.

LOL, Surrey is opening a food bank for the bums.
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Re: Kneecaps

Postby ukcanuck » Wed Jun 18, 2014 11:44 am

I don't have a huge issue with final exams if they make up no more than forty percent of the mark and I don't have an issue if the fraser institute published their results if there are no names attached. Or even if they made two lists one for private schools and one for public ones. That would be more honest. But that wouldn't serve their purpose would it?

And that's not what is happening, the fraser institute has an agenda and they misrepresent the facts. I read their guidelines, it sounds all well and good but numbers are just numbers. You cannot put a quantative measure on human mind. What Johnny got last year on an exam compared to what Jeffry got this year is irrelevant because all the variables change.

But can Johnny or Jeffry infer meaning from related facts, can they take unrelated new knowledge attach it to acquired knowledge in their long term memory and make logical deductions for meaning?
Project based learning provides that and is also the best form of learning for inclusive purposes.
People with spatial, kinaesthetic and auditory learning styles can compete on a level playing field with visual learners who typically do better in written exams...

Btw I don't have any issue with private schools I work in one and I am no communist. Everyone has the right to opt out of the public system if they want. I think that the argument that the government owes every child an education is valid so I think that the government should fund private schools exactly the same as public ones...on a per child basis.



What I don't think the government should do is remove the decision making about classroom size and who receives status as special needs.

I think that teachers are much more qualified than bean counters to decide who gets funding who doesn't.
And by the way, it's absolute fucking bullshit that teachers want the extra positions to grow the membership. It's completely heartbreaking to see kids struggle and fail because they need help and no one will give it to them because there is no money...
It's about taking the job serious and doing what's right..

Something with class size, I work for the cheapest school I've ever seen, they count every thing right down to sheets of toilet paper. If they could get away with thirty kids in a class they would in a heartbeat.
But everyone knows that 21 kids on a class is the optimum number.

The liberals are assholes to say the BCTF is using kids as pawns when they know full well that class size is hurting kids chances for succeed in school.


Actually sometimes I get a laugh out of your curmudgeonly ways and sometimes I even agree with you, and I probably would laugh at your show of support :)
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Re: Kneecaps

Postby Topper » Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:09 pm

I went through school with class sizes of ~36 students/teacher.

I had no problem getting my degree after that torturous classroom environment.

So now the truth arises. You gave up on the BCTF to go teach at private schools in foreign lands.

Thre Fraser institute compares school performance, attached social economic status to their grading and lists past school performance to identify trends.

So you have no issue with final exams.

Now that you are coming around to my way of thinking, I would appreciate a thank you.
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Re: Kneecaps

Postby Aaronp18 » Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:30 pm

Here's an interesting article floating around today:

SIMPLE MATH FOR TEACHERS: ECONOMIC GROWTH = HIGHER WAGES
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Re: Kneecaps

Postby Topper » Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:37 pm

Aaronp18 wrote:Here's an interesting article floating around today:

SIMPLE MATH FOR TEACHERS: ECONOMIC GROWTH = HIGHER WAGES

LOL

They have a wagon burner disconnect between government revenues and expenses.
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Re: Kneecaps

Postby Aaronp18 » Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:55 pm

Topper wrote:They have a wagon burner disconnect between government revenues and expenses.


So essentially, to fund the teachers desired raise, Provincial taxes would have to increase to the point that teachers would be giving it right back to the government.

:thumbs:

:hmmm:
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Re: Kneecaps

Postby Topper » Wed Jun 18, 2014 1:03 pm

Something folks on government payrolls fail to understand.

When I lived in Jamaica the government would always settle the big government union contracts handing out big raises just before calling an election. Once re-elected they would devalue the currency to pay the bills.

The people fell for it every time.
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