The Ukraine

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Re: The Ukraine

Postby ukcanuck » Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:38 pm

I can see Russia's motivation for keeping Ukraine securely tied by her apron strings. A revival of a Russian empire to balance the west needs the Ukraine.

That naval base on the Black Sea is still the only warm water port available to the Russian navy. The economic and cultural potential of the Ukraine keeps the power balance within Russia firmly in the hands of Euro- Russians

Everyone east of the Urals are Muslim and or Asian....

Putin doesn't have a choice, keep Ukraine in the fold or Russia's wealth and power diminish considerably
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Re: The Ukraine

Postby BurningBeard » Tue Mar 04, 2014 12:27 am

Listercat wrote:Saddam gassing Kurds isn't immoral or cowardly?

Yeah, the US should have done something about that in 1988 instead of supporting him.
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Re: The Ukraine

Postby Arachnid » Tue Mar 04, 2014 4:50 am

Listercat wrote:Saddam gassing Kurds isn't immoral or cowardly? Saddam's idol was Uncle Joe FFS. Spidey you talk out your ass under the illusion that you are smarter than everyone else. I got news you aren't. If you can't talk rationally about an issue without personal attacks then stay out of it.


No, you think I'm smarter than you. I can't help it if I actual travel outside of Merritt now and again and read things other than Ladies Home Journal s(h)it'n on the toilet.

I apologize for the personal attack and I'm usually a pretty tolerant fella but I can't subscribe to your idea of 'Ignorance is it's own reward'

Here's for your own edumacation: Turkey has tortured and executed the Kurds (Turds?) as well.Mostly because they claim they are a terrorist organization The rest of the world did nothing (aka USA). Why? Istanbul is a strategic location. Saddam had outgrown his usefulness (and had given Russia their oil contracts), he had absolutely nothing to do with 911, Al Qaeda or bin Laden.

Go live in Iraq today if you want to celebrate the Amerikan revolution and execution of their former leader.
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You sliding scale of morality is black and white. It should be grey. Don't tell me that Obama is the second coming of Christ and Putin is Satin. If I believe in that crap they would both be rotting...
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Re: The Ukraine

Postby Listercat » Tue Mar 04, 2014 5:36 am

Where did I ever say Obama was a saint? I never brought his name up because he has nothing to do with Putin's invasion of Ukraine. I don't agree with his so called foreign policy or much else of his policies anymore than I agreed with a lot of GW's. The USA and much of the Western world are guilty of hypocrisy when it comes to allowing genocide. The UN is a money sucking neutered organization that should be scrapped.

This thread was about Ukraine not Iraq, Turkey or any of the Stans.BTW I am quite aware of Turkey's treatment of the Kurds. It is not about terrorists or Al Qaeda. Bringing those into this conversation only serves to muddy the waters. If Putin is legitimately entitled to invade Ukraine to "protect" Russian "citizens" then France should be entitled to invade Quebec.

Morality is black and white. If it is grey then morality has no principle to guide it.
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Re: The Ukraine

Postby Topper » Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:02 am

Ukraine will remain under Russian control. Europe won't give Putin a reason to close the valve on the pipelines. There will be a bit of arm waving and finger wagging but that is all.

As Vlad has said, he is merely restoring a democratically elected leader to his position after a street coup. The north south divide in the country is very real. The northern portion is ethnic Ukrainian, the south, ethnic Russian, the voting patterns follow those lines. Neither side has a leader free of corruption.

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Re: The Ukraine

Postby Arachnid » Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:58 am

Listercat wrote:Where did I ever say Obama was a saint? I never brought his name up because he has nothing to do with Putin's invasion of Ukraine. I don't agree with his so called foreign policy or much else of his policies anymore than I agreed with a lot of GW's. The USA and much of the Western world are guilty of hypocrisy when it comes to allowing genocide. The UN is a money sucking neutered organization that should be scrapped.

This thread was about Ukraine not Iraq, Turkey or any of the Stans.BTW I am quite aware of Turkey's treatment of the Kurds. It is not about terrorists or Al Qaeda. Bringing those into this conversation only serves to muddy the waters. If Putin is legitimately entitled to invade Ukraine to "protect" Russian "citizens" then France should be entitled to invade Quebec.

Morality is black and white. If it is grey then morality has no principle to guide it.


Well there you go....through my 3D high-tech glasses I see fifty shades of grey in technofuckingcoloured glory....you are stuck with the black & white TV with rabbit ears....

You cannot have an argument in a vacuum. Any good lawyer will tell you that. You have to have a reference point. A baseline. An example. Every conflict issue in the world is not black & white (it used to be). France invade Quebec...wow, great counter point....

Here's your homework. Read it and you will be just as smart as me. Don't read it and continue to read your local rag or watch CNN/CBC drivel

https://www.commondreams.org/headline/2014/03/03-3

The victor writes the story and right now Putin has a bigger dick than Barrack.
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Re: The Ukraine

Postby Listercat » Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:29 am

Topper, I agree there is an ethnic division within Ukraine and that the voters patterns reflect this. I'm not certain that the ouster of Yanukovych by the duly elected Parliament is "illegal" under the constitution. You are correct in that Ukraine has had problems with leaders who were less than ethical. Sadly that seems to be part of the growing pains that new democracies go through. Even worse are older democracies where corruption and unethical standards have been allowed to ingrain themselves. ( Italy, France, Spain, Greece)

The Crimea area was deeded to Ukraine in 1954 by then Soviet head honcho Nikita Khrushchev as, most seem to think, a "reparation" for the brutality brought on the area by Stalin. When the USSR collapsed Russia and the Ukraine signed treaties leasing the various Naval bases and there were various conditions attached to that. To my knowledge Ukraine has not violated those treaties. Putin and Russia certainly have.

Russia presently supplies about 30% of Europe's gas and probably 100% of Ukraine's. That is how morality gets bought & sold.
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Re: The Ukraine

Postby dbr » Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:37 am

Arachnid wrote:
dbr wrote:It will be interesting to see what, if anything, the West does about this.

The Russians have taken advantage of their deep involvement in the Ukraine and I wonder if the US or the EU even have the will to do something like offer up significant political or economic aid. I wonder how much money the Ukraine owes Gazprom, for instance.

Listercat wrote:He has done a complete 180 from insisting on diplomacy to solve the situation in Syria.


Amazing how those principles only seem to apply when they suit him..

herb wrote:So Vlad spends $51B in PR money at the Olympics and blows any goodwill generated within a week. Unbelievable.


Well, does he even care about the goodwill outside of his sandbox?


Because Amerika was so right about the illegal invasion of Iraq and it's illegal drone wars...give me a fucking break ....all you Obama apologists... 8-)


LOL, did I even condemn anything? Did I say anyone was "wrong"?

Nevermind your assumed belief that such condemnation would mean an endorsement of some other empire..
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Re: The Ukraine

Postby Topper » Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:58 am

And the Ukraine is several billion dollars in debt to Gazprom on their subsidized energy bills.

Note the $1 Billion Kerry just pledge to help with the bills, also Gazprom has said starting April, no more subsidized sales however they are willing to lend $2 billion to help with the arrears. Shopping at the company store.

Interesting watching this play out as the same is about to hapen in the Carribean/Central America and parts of South America. For years now, Venezuela under Chavez and now Madura have been selling subsidized oil to countries throughout the region through it's PetroCarbe program.
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Re: The Ukraine

Postby dbr » Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:12 am

Topper wrote:And the Ukraine is several billion dollars in debt to Gazprom on their subsidized energy bills.

Note the $1 Billion Kerry just pledge to help with the bills, also Gazprom has said starting April, no more subsidized sales however they are willing to lend $2 billion to help with the arrears. Shopping at the company store.

Interesting watching this play out as the same is about to hapen in the Carribean/Central America and parts of South America. For years now, Venezuela under Chavez and now Madura have been selling subsidized oil to countries throughout the region through it's PetroCarbe program.


Pretty much. As much as a lot of Ukranians and a few Europeans would like it, the odds of them freeing themselves of their economic dependence on Russia seem impossibly low.
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Re: The Ukraine

Postby Arachnid » Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:16 am

Topper wrote:And the Ukraine is several billion dollars in debt to Gazprom on their subsidized energy bills.

Note the $1 Billion Kerry just pledge to help with the bills, also Gazprom has said starting April, no more subsidized sales however they are willing to lend $2 billion to help with the arrears. Shopping at the company store.

Interesting watching this play out as the same is about to hapen in the Carribean/Central America and parts of South America. For years now, Venezuela under Chavez and now Madura have been selling subsidized oil to countries throughout the region through it's PetroCarbe program.


Many have predicted the War of Resources. We are only now seeing it happen (although Afghanistan and Iraq were the precursors).
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Re: The Ukraine

Postby ukcanuck » Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:19 am



You want an education yacunts, watch this.
Last edited by ukcanuck on Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Ukraine

Postby Listercat » Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:22 am

WW2 with Japan was all about oil, so a war of resources is not new. The Allies were able to shut off Hitler's oil supply which shortened that conflict. Strategically China is hooped because most of their oil comes by sea and in the event of conflict that supply can be shut off quite easily.
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Re: The Ukraine

Postby Arachnid » Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:26 am

dbr wrote:
dbr wrote:It will be interesting to see what, if anything, the West does about this.

The Russians have taken advantage of their deep involvement in the Ukraine and I wonder if the US or the EU even have the will to do something like offer up significant political or economic aid. I wonder how much money the Ukraine owes Gazprom, for instance.

Listercat wrote:He has done a complete 180 from insisting on diplomacy to solve the situation in Syria.


Amazing how those principles only seem to apply when they suit him..


Well, does he even care about the goodwill outside of his sandbox?


LOL, did I even condemn anything? Did I say anyone was "wrong"?

Nevermind your assumed belief that such condemnation would mean an endorsement of some other empire..


Sorry dbf, I have you on ignore and can't read what you posted....I'm sure it is of the emotionally retarded variety and I am not sorry I missed it.....besides....the bullet was meant for blisterpack ;)
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Re: The Ukraine

Postby Arachnid » Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:31 am

Listercat wrote:WW2 with Japan was all about oil, so a war of resources is not new. The Allies were able to shut off Hitler's oil supply which shortened that conflict. Strategically China is hooped because most of their oil comes by sea and in the event of conflict that supply can be shut off quite easily.


Are you really that thick?!

First you tell me I can't use other examples in history as a point of reference and then you do? :mex:

There was plenty of resources 1939, it was just located farther away. Japan didn't start the war for resources, they were an imperial army hell bent on expanding. Hitler was the same. They both needed oil thought for their war machines. Now we are running out, of the easy cheap shit. Whoever has access to it will have the best economy, that's how the good old boys measure happiness right?
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