US Erection 12 *AND* 16 *AND* 20 *AND* 22 *AND* 24

[ukcanuck]

So you're saying this in a "so bad it's good" framework? Meaning that he's such a piece of shit that the only result can be a country united to never let it happen again... like a modern day Hitler?

This has nothing to do with what you were saying Corn, it's just I saw "Hitler" and it reminded me...

I read Corn to mean that old chestnut that "Hitler got the trains to run on time" which is similar to some of the defense arguments for trumpler

[Per]

So you're saying this in a "so bad it's good" framework? Meaning that he's such a piece of shit that the only result can be a country united to never let it happen again... like a modern day Hitler?

This has nothing to do with what you were saying Corn, it's just I saw "Hitler" and it reminded me...

I read Corn to mean that old chestnut that "Hitler got the trains to run on time" which is similar to some of the defense arguments for trumpler

Well, Hitler did more than that. He reduced unemployment (by reintroducing general conscription and by investing heavily in building highways all over Germany), improved the govt finances (by confiscating Jewish property and companies) turned the economy around (by refusing to pay war damages) and created Volkswagen ("the people's car") so that every German family should be able to afford a car.

He was hugely popular there for a while, before he introduced his euthanasia programme for the handicapped, started a world war, incarcerated all political opponents, union organisers and homosexuals and implemented a racist ideology that even included extermination of certain ethnicities (mainly - but not restricted to - Jews and Gypsies).

But heck, even then some people (looking at you, Henry Ford) insisted on "... but look what he's done for the economy!"

[Per]

A heartfelt thank you to the people of Alabama for doing the right thing!



(The original by Kurt Weill and Bertolt Brecht has "pretty boy" in the last verse, but this is the version preferred by the Doors, David Bowie and Roy Moore...)

[Strangelove]

(Hitler) was hugely popular there for a while, before he introduced his euthanasia programme for the handicapped, started a world war, incarcerated all political opponents, union organisers and homosexuals and implemented a racist ideology that even included extermination of certain ethnicities (mainly - but not restricted to - Jews and Gypsies).

Oh yes, once upon a time Hitler and Mussolini were two of the most popular politicians in the Western World.

Media darlings in fact!

They were imaginative socialists at a time when socialism was very much in vogue.

Twas their leftist minds that dreamt up fascism.

Somewhat ironic that fascism is largely branded a right-wing thing today.

Blame it on lefties working furiously in various ways to make socialism look good on paper.

Which of course is the only place it ever looks good.

Which of course is because lefties are completely out of touch with reality...

[ukcanuck]

(Hitler) was hugely popular there for a while, before he introduced his euthanasia programme for the handicapped, started a world war, incarcerated all political opponents, union organisers and homosexuals and implemented a racist ideology that even included extermination of certain ethnicities (mainly - but not restricted to - Jews and Gypsies).

Oh yes, once upon a time Hitler and Mussolini were two of the most popular politicians in the Western World.

Media darlings in fact!

They were imaginative socialists at a time when socialism was very much in vogue.

Twas their leftist minds that dreamt up fascism.

Somewhat ironic that fascism is largely branded a right-wing thing today.

Blame it on lefties working furiously in various ways to make socialism look good on paper.

Which of course is the only place it ever looks good.

Which of course is because lefties are completely out of touch with reality...

Lol, very Mendacious Doc. In fact a great impression of Addy himself - a lie wrapped in truth ...

[Strangelove]

^ UK posted that because lefties are completely out of touch with reality...

[ukcanuck]

^ UK posted that because lefties are completely out of touch with reality...

you’re using the term left incorrectly to suit your own ends.

No argument that socialism is a part of national socialism and it was a part of Italian fascism but modern understanding of the left is entirely on the right side of that particular spectrum.

They wouldn’t be able to tell us apart in 1929 Europe

[Strangelove]

^ Mendacious...

[ukcanuck]

The organization of Islamic cooperation, a political body consisting of 57 international Islamic states including Turkey and Saudi Arabia normally frozen with bickering and infighting just came together to officially recognize East Jerusalem as the occupied capital of Palestine...


Couldn’t let sleeping dogs lie eh Donald?

[Topper]

North Korea will eat their dog.

[ukcanuck]

North Korea will eat their dog.

Did some one mention a double dog dare ?

[Per]

Oh yes, once upon a time Hitler and Mussolini were two of the most popular politicians in the Western World.
Media darlings in fact!
They were imaginative socialists at a time when socialism was very much in vogue.
Twas their leftist minds that dreamt up fascism.
Somewhat ironic that fascism is largely branded a right-wing thing today.
...

Well, you're not completely out to lunch... but you're not right either.

Mussolini was a communist before he became a fascist, and he borrowed a lot from communism when creating fascism. This much is true. He himself also suggested that fascism had a lot in common with social democracy, which is the mellowest form of socialism, but all social democrats vehemently protested against this statement.
Mussolini in turn inspired both Peron in Argentina and Castro on Cuba when they tried to build in corporativism in their societies. Thus these Spanish speaking socialists borrowed ideas from fascism.

But there was never any question about on which side of the political spectrum the fascists and/or nazis belonged. At the core of their ideology lies traditional values regarding family, church and nation. In sharp contrast to the communist tenets of breaking up families, of atheism and globalism.

The genius of fascism was to incorporate populism into a right wing agenda, which allowed them to woo the working class and made them very different from conservatives, but still firmly planted on the right wing of politics. It's kind of like the difference between Steve Bannon and traditional Republicans. A lot of blue collar Americans feel that Steve Bannon and his alt right movement is about their rights, but in truth it's all still just about making the rich richer. They're just saying it in a way that makes white trash believe they and the one percent have a common agenda.

How did Hitler get to power? Well his NSDAP got just over 30% of the vote, but thanks to forming a coalition with the Conservatives, he was able to become chancellor and assume power. Just like the Conservatives in Sweden are the only party to have ever considered cooperating with the Sweden Democrats, a party with neonazi roots.

What was the first thing he did? He banned the communist party and had many of the prominent communists arrested and sent to concentration camps. He later did the same with the social democrats.

The first people who were rounded up and sent to concentration camps were those on the left wing. Communists, socialists, union organizers. Then he added homosexuals, and eventually Jews, Gypsies (or Romani, as they prefer to be called these days) and other ethnic, sexual and religious minorities.

If Hitler, as you claim, was left wing, shouldn't he have rounded up conservatives and priests instead of his fellow left wingers?

Furthermore, look at the fascist regime that survived WWII; Franco's falangists in Spain, that ruled that country till 1975. Look at their policies, priorities, their allies and their enemies. They were right wing. No question about it. Women did not belong in the workplace, they should stay at home and take care of the family, while having as many children as possible. Companies in theory had to pay taxes, but they did not need to present any book keeping, so they were only taxed on any profits they decided to reveal. Most companies claimed to not make any profits. Sort of like Donald Trump's businesses. The church was extremely powerful. The poor extremely poor.

Communism and fascism in many ways resemble one another; they are both authoritarian, they both scoff at human rights and minority rights, they both hate homosexuals, neither ideology understands the benefits of free trade, they thinkdemocracy is a sham, etc. But in a communist country private companies will be confiscated and turned over to the government and the government will provide healthcare and education for all.And in most communist countries religious people will be persecuted. In a fascist country the upper class will retain its privileges and possessions. Worker's rights are on the other hand extremely limited and trade unions are illegal. The church and traditional family values are at the core of society.

Another huge difference is the matter of class. In communism and socialism the concept of class is fundamental. They see society as permeated by class struggle, and they are firmly on the side of the working class (at least in theory, in practice -not so much...). In fascism the concept of classes is frowned upon. The idea is that the Nation is sacred and that people from all walks of life have their place in the structure and should all be pulling together. Hence the corporativistic ideas, where different groups all should be represented in local councils etc.

According to communism, the working class around the world should rise and overthrow their rulers and form one great alliance with the proletariat calling the shots.

According to fascism the different classes should cooperate in building a stronger nation. Well, in theory. In practice the poor get royally screwed. And when they complain they get punished for questioning their god given position in the social order.

Suffice it to say that communism and fascism are equally bad, and far inferior to the concept of liberal democracy that has become the norm in Western civilisation.
But it is quite easy to differentiate between them on the left-right scale.
No matter how loudly you insist otherwise.

[Strangelove]

^ See what I mean about lefties working furiously?

Experts have written books trying to nail down "fascism"... in the end they don't agree much.

Well they agree that it can be left of centre or right of centre and that it is "nationalistic".

But of course my good buddy Per thinks he has it all figured out!

Per, you quoted me and said I was "wrong"...

It's late and I'm tired, perhaps I missed it, but what part of the quote are you disagreeing with?

However I will respond to a couple of your comments...

You say Hitler was pals with the church but the experts disagree with you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious ... olf_Hitler

Any chance this politician was playing politics

... to keep the church on board for as long as he needed them?

I mean how else was he going to get from here to there?

For God's sake man, he was obsessed with the occult...

You point out that Hitler battled the Communists in Germany.

I think we've had this discussion before.

The Communists in Germany were committed to handing Germany over to the Soviets.

In fact in those days the word "Communist" (capital C) was interchangeable with the word Soviet.

This of course made them Hitler's biggest enemy at the start.

The creators of fascism absolutely were socialists WHEN THEY CREATED IT.

They just wanted to find a way to be dat dere and not hand there country to the Russkies.

So they invented "fascism" as a form of nationalistic socialism.

(mind you they did of course want to take over the world)

You say Mussolini was a commie, but you can't seem to admit Hitler was the same kind of animal.

Yet it is as plain as the nose on your face (assuming you have a nose).

"German Workers' Party"??... "National Socialism"??

"I have learned a great deal from Marxism as I do not hesitate to admit… The difference between them and myself is that I have really put into practice what these peddlers and pen pushers have timidly begun. The whole of National Socialism is based on it… National Socialism is what Marxism might have been if it could have broken its absurd and artificial ties with a democratic order". - Adolf Hitler

"The party is all-embracing. It rules our lives in all their breadth and depth… Each activity and each need of the individual will thereby be regulated by the party as the representative of the general good… This is Socialism- not such trifles as the private possession of the means of production. Of what importance is that if I range men firmly within a discipline they cannot escape. Let them own land or factories as much as they please. The decisive factor is that the State, through the party, is supreme over all, regardless of whether they are owners or workers… Our Socialism goes far deeper." - Adolf Hitler

You say Mussolini was a commie who invented fascism

... you need to admit Hitler was an admirer of Mussolini who embraced what his comrade invented.

(with some modifications)

I've recommended Liberal Fascism by Goldberg to you in the past, you really should read it.

Now what part did you disagree with:

Oh yes, once upon a time Hitler and Mussolini were two of the most popular politicians in the Western World.
Media darlings in fact!
They were imaginative socialists at a time when socialism was very much in vogue.
Twas their leftist minds that dreamt up fascism.
Somewhat ironic that fascism is largely branded a right-wing thing today.

[Per]

^
Now what part did you disagree with:

This one:

Somewhat ironic that fascism is largely branded a right-wing thing today.

it's not ironic. It just it was it is.

I won't bother looking around for the best available sources, I'll just link to wikipedia.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

Here are some of the parts that could be of interest:

Fascism /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism,[1][2] characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and control of industry and commerce[3] that came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.[4] The first fascist movements emerged in Italy during World War I before it spread to other European countries.[4] Opposed to liberalism, Marxism and anarchism, fascism is usually placed on the far-right within the traditional left–right spectrum.[5][6][7][4][8][9]

Since the end of World War II in 1945, few parties have openly described themselves as fascist and the term is instead now usually used pejoratively by political opponents. The descriptions neo-fascist or post-fascist are sometimes applied more formally to describe parties of the far-right with ideologies similar to, or rooted in, 20th century fascist movements.[4][18]

One common definition of the term focuses on three concepts: the fascist negations (anti-liberalism, anti-communism and anti-conservatism); nationalist authoritarian goals of creating a regulated economic structure to transform social relations within a modern, self-determined culture; and a political aesthetic of romantic symbolism, mass mobilization, a positive view of violence and promotion of masculinity, youth and charismatic leadership.[31][32][33] According to many scholars, fascism—especially once in power—has historically attacked communism, conservatism and parliamentary liberalism, attracting support primarily from the far-right.[34]

[ukcanuck]

^
Now what part did you disagree with:

This one:

Somewhat ironic that fascism is largely branded a right-wing thing today.

it's not ironic. It just it was it is.

I won't bother looking around for the best available sources, I'll just link to wikipedia.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

Here are some of the parts that could be of interest:

Fascism /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism,[1][2] characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and control of industry and commerce[3] that came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.[4] The first fascist movements emerged in Italy during World War I before it spread to other European countries.[4] Opposed to liberalism, Marxism and anarchism, fascism is usually placed on the far-right within the traditional left–right spectrum.[5][6][7][4][8][9]

Since the end of World War II in 1945, few parties have openly described themselves as fascist and the term is instead now usually used pejoratively by political opponents. The descriptions neo-fascist or post-fascist are sometimes applied more formally to describe parties of the far-right with ideologies similar to, or rooted in, 20th century fascist movements.[4][18]

One common definition of the term focuses on three concepts: the fascist negations (anti-liberalism, anti-communism and anti-conservatism); nationalist authoritarian goals of creating a regulated economic structure to transform social relations within a modern, self-determined culture; and a political aesthetic of romantic symbolism, mass mobilization, a positive view of violence and promotion of masculinity, youth and charismatic leadership.[31][32][33] According to many scholars, fascism—especially once in power—has historically attacked communism, conservatism and parliamentary liberalism, attracting support primarily from the far-right.[34]

Perhaps it’s not that ironic that central control of the means of production is not solely a Marxist platform?

All kinds of economic models seek to control production one way or another...