World Juniors

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Re: World Juniors

Postby Island Nucklehead » Sat Jan 04, 2014 5:22 pm

Per wrote:They are not playing by NHL rules, where you discuss intent and purpose and whether the player turned. They are playing by IIHF rules, which are simpler in this case. All checking to the head is illegal. Doesn't matter if the player is standing, crouching, sitting or lying down. If there is contact with the head, the hit is illegal. Simple as that.

The IIHF are serious about doing something to rid the game of concussions. Wish the NHL were as well.
Then again, at least the NHL now does have a rule against headshots, but a more complicated one, where some head shots are OK and others aren't.



Actually PER, you're wrong. There are mitigating factors in calling the Checking to the head and Neck area that should have applied to the Drouin hit:

2. A player is responsible to keep his head up and be aware of his position and the possibility of being checked. To be checked is a normal part of the game and players should be prepared to protect themselves as approved by the rules.


4. As a guideline, where the major force of the blow is initially to the body area and
then "slides "up to the head area, this is not classified as "checking to the head"



So, buddy tried to get out of a legal check by dropping, Drouin caught his shoulder and his hands slid up into buddy's head. Drouin attempted to deliver a legal hit, and the opposing player refused to be hit. Shouldn't have been a penalty for checking to the head. Could've called a charge, because of the distance travelled, but there's no way that should have been a 10-minute misconduct.

http://en.iihce.fi/Portals/3/IIHF_files_officials/Rulebook_52_101.pdf
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Re: World Juniors

Postby Arachnid » Sat Jan 04, 2014 8:05 pm

Per wrote:So, I'm a bit disappointed. :|

I was looking forward to a Sweden vs Canada final.
We did our part, but Canada? Seriously. You lose 5-1 to Finland?

Sure, a game against Finland always has a bit of a derby feel to it, there's certainly a rivalry there, but I had really preferred to have Sweden square off against Canada in the final, and win.

Oh, well. I guess it is what it is. :drink:


I"M CHEERING FOR FINLAND NOW! :evil: (and I hate them :twisted: )
Last edited by Arachnid on Sun Jan 05, 2014 9:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: World Juniors

Postby Meds » Sun Jan 05, 2014 1:32 am

BurningBeard wrote:
Per wrote:So, I'm a bit disappointed. :|

I was looking forward to a Sweden vs Canada final.
We did our part, but Canada? Seriously. You lose 5-1 to Finland?

Sure, a game against Finland always has a bit of a derby feel to it, there's certainly a rivalry there, but I had really preferred to have Sweden square off against Canada in the final, and win.

Oh, well. I guess it is what it is. :drink:

Image


OMG BB that almost erased the sting of the loss. :rofl:
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Re: World Juniors

Postby Meds » Sun Jan 05, 2014 1:34 am

Island Nucklehead wrote:
Per wrote:They are not playing by NHL rules, where you discuss intent and purpose and whether the player turned. They are playing by IIHF rules, which are simpler in this case. All checking to the head is illegal. Doesn't matter if the player is standing, crouching, sitting or lying down. If there is contact with the head, the hit is illegal. Simple as that.

The IIHF are serious about doing something to rid the game of concussions. Wish the NHL were as well.
Then again, at least the NHL now does have a rule against headshots, but a more complicated one, where some head shots are OK and others aren't.



Actually PER, you're wrong. There are mitigating factors in calling the Checking to the head and Neck area that should have applied to the Drouin hit:

2. A player is responsible to keep his head up and be aware of his position and the possibility of being checked. To be checked is a normal part of the game and players should be prepared to protect themselves as approved by the rules.


4. As a guideline, where the major force of the blow is initially to the body area and
then "slides "up to the head area, this is not classified as "checking to the head"



So, buddy tried to get out of a legal check by dropping, Drouin caught his shoulder and his hands slid up into buddy's head. Drouin attempted to deliver a legal hit, and the opposing player refused to be hit. Shouldn't have been a penalty for checking to the head. Could've called a charge, because of the distance travelled, but there's no way that should have been a 10-minute misconduct.

http://en.iihce.fi/Portals/3/IIHF_files_officials/Rulebook_52_101.pdf


Be interesting to see how Per tries to spin his way out of this..... :look:
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Re: World Juniors

Postby Meds » Sun Jan 05, 2014 1:58 am

First off, before I rant a bit, I want to acknowledge that these are just a bunch of 16-19 year old kids, so anyone coming down heavy on them (myself included) needs to bear that in mind.

Canada did NOT deserve to be in the gold medal game. That's the bottom line. Outside of 2005 when we iced probably the deepest and most talented team to EVER skate at ANY WJC, Canada has been a bit of a slow starting group, usually gaining traction and gelling as a team in the last couple of round robin games. This year they never got that traction, and the certainly did not come together as a team, and that was ultimately the undoing. I point the finger at one guy for this, Sutter.

Everyone raves how Sutter is such a great coach, and so good at getting the most out of junior players. I'm calling bullshit on that after watching this year's junior team. I think Sutter is an average coach at best, he can inspire work ethic out of the right kind of players, but that's where it ends. The teams that Sutter won gold with all had individuals who could create on their own and make it work. Crosby, Giroux, Stamkos, Tavares, Toews, to name a few. They could one man show it and then make the play to setup a linemate and Canada looked like a great team. This year that was missing. Drouin has great hands, but he was a fucking puck hog, the only time he looked to pass was when he was in real trouble, and at that point he had nobody to pass to because nobody was on the same page. It was like watching drop-in hockey at a local rink. Drouin is also not in a class with some of his predecessors. The Canadians never passed the puck well all tournament. They couldn't even dump and chase as a unit. It was almost embarassing to watch how poorly this team came together.

The other teams in the tournament all looked more cohesive and on the same page when it came to passing and setting up offensively. Russia possibly the exception as they look a bit more like Canada in that regard, but the Canadian group is definitely the worst when it comes down to knowing how to win and compete as a team rather than a grouping of individuals.

Even with the above problem Canada still had what it takes to beat Finland. There were just a few things that beat them today. Emotion/intensity, bounces, and officiating.

Canada looked nervous coming out, they didn't jump into this game with both feet but rather came out of the gate cautiously and let Finland gain some momentum. The weird bounce off of the end boards sparked the Fins after the pounced on it for a goal. But once Canada was down 2-0 they seemed to get some life off of Drouin's goal as a Canadian penalty expired. Canada was then gaining momentum and looked poised to make a real game of it and Finland was a bit on their heels. Enter the Swiss (IIHF) official. The holding call on Petan was ridiculous. The guy goes to the net, gets buried, is face down on the ice with both hands on his stick and a scrum on top of him. He gets up and is whistled for holding? Bullshit. The ref fucked up and was so thin-skinned he gave him an extra 10. Canada still got a PP out of it all, but that seemed to derail the train just as it was building up some real steam. The asinine call on Drouin completely shifted the game back to the Fins. The Canadians were backed off and not engaging physically, they weren't sure what they might do that would get them a penalty. With this ref sneezing as you skated by the bench would probably get you 2 for usportsmanlike conduct and 10 for endangering the official by exposing him to potential infection. A complete joke. It was obvious that the ref had his head up his ass in the second period because some of the calls against Finland in the 3rd period were really soft. But too little too late.

The intensity was also lacking. This was the game of their lives, so-to-speak, it was win and you play for gold, lose and you play for bronze.....otherwise known in Canada as "who gives a shit". I thought that Sutter would rally the troops and tell them to come out and just hang it balls out for the win. Instead they came out and looked scared. They couldn't enter the zone, they couldn't string together a passing play, and they didn't even show much of a pulse until Fucale was sitting on the bench with 2 minutes left and the extra man was over the boards. Where the hell was that before? I got the impression that Sutter didn't green light the full court press until that point, otherwise why the hell would you hang back and not crash and bang?

Oh yeah, and nobody on Canada was skating well today, it was like they had lead in their skates or something.
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Re: World Juniors

Postby Per » Sun Jan 05, 2014 7:20 am

Island Nucklehead wrote:
Per wrote:They are not playing by NHL rules, where you discuss intent and purpose and whether the player turned. They are playing by IIHF rules, which are simpler in this case. All checking to the head is illegal. Doesn't matter if the player is standing, crouching, sitting or lying down. If there is contact with the head, the hit is illegal. Simple as that.

The IIHF are serious about doing something to rid the game of concussions. Wish the NHL were as well.
Then again, at least the NHL now does have a rule against headshots, but a more complicated one, where some head shots are OK and others aren't.



Actually PER, you're wrong. There are mitigating factors in calling the Checking to the head and Neck area that should have applied to the Drouin hit:

2. A player is responsible to keep his head up and be aware of his position and the possibility of being checked. To be checked is a normal part of the game and players should be prepared to protect themselves as approved by the rules.


4. As a guideline, where the major force of the blow is initially to the body area and
then "slides "up to the head area, this is not classified as "checking to the head"



So, buddy tried to get out of a legal check by dropping, Drouin caught his shoulder and his hands slid up into buddy's head. Drouin attempted to deliver a legal hit, and the opposing player refused to be hit. Shouldn't have been a penalty for checking to the head. Could've called a charge, because of the distance travelled, but there's no way that should have been a 10-minute misconduct.

http://en.iihce.fi/Portals/3/IIHF_files_officials/Rulebook_52_101.pdf


Yeah, sure, but I've been looking at the video over and over again. Roughly 3:45 minutes in.

I don't see the Finn ducking or crouching. He is not keeping his head up, that's for sure, but that's already there when he shoots the puck, and the only attempt to avoid impact I see is that he tries to turn away from Drouin at the last moment.

It also looks like Drouin raises his arm just before impact. If he had kept it at his side he probably would have gotten away with it, but to me it seems the initial contact is not shoulder to shoulder but lower arm to head, so that means #4 would not apply.

Either way, he only got the 2+10, right? That's the minimum for checking to the head, so I don't see what all the fuss is about. :|

It's not like that call decided the game.

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Re: World Juniors

Postby Per » Sun Jan 05, 2014 7:33 am

Btw, wishing Canada luck in the bronze game! :thumbs:

The Russians' poor attitude and sportsmanship throughout the tournament has pissed me off.
Here's hoping they won't get any medals to bring home. :evil:

I know Canadians frown at a bronze, but it's still nice to beat the Russians and end the tournament with a win, eh?
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Re: World Juniors

Postby Per » Sun Jan 05, 2014 7:39 am

Blob Mckenzie wrote:So Sweden is through. More good luck than good management. That and goaltending.

Good thing our luck is so consistent! We've now won nine of our ten last WJC games against Russia! 8-)

Blob Mckenzie wrote:I wonder if there could be a suspension coming out of this melee.

Yup. Pettersson is suspended and won't be eligible for the final. :(
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Re: World Juniors

Postby ClamRussel » Sun Jan 05, 2014 11:36 am

Blob Mckenzie wrote:I know what the rule is and it doesn't change the fact that it is a stupid rule. The guy crouched down when he saw someone coming . It was a cheap play on a dumb rule. Just like the fake injury on the penalty shot . Either way the Finns were full value for the win and Canada played like shit and got what they deserved


Bullshit Blob, Drouin should have picked a better angle. 2 game suspension.
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Island Nucklehead wrote:
Arachnid wrote:wow, what complete bullshit, he hurt his hand?


Yep. That Finn should quit now and move to nordic walking. What an embarrassing lack of testes.


Just embarrassing.
The rule should be, if you cannot take the penalty shot then the team gets a powerplay instead. I bet his hand would have healed mighty fast in that case.

In the end, Sutter had a team that he was afraid to play (a la Torts)....so one could conclude they took the wrong players. Meanwhile, Connor Brown is only leading the OHL in scoring and sitting at home. Darnell Nurse & Max Domi came a hair within making their respectable NHL clubs. Even Brendan Gaunce to a lesser degree has experience and a 200 ft game that Sutter wouldn't have been afraid to throw on the ice as a 4th liner. Instead McDavid was glued to the bench and Pouilot was overused to the point of being a train wreck. Ekblad was also extremely inconsistent and I have a hard time seeing how Nurse couldn't have helped that blueline.

Canada wasn't even close to the transitional skating game brought by Finland, Russia & Sweden. The passing & creativity displayed by those teams was extremely impressive imo whereas Canada chose to play a primitive grinding game whose passing was atrocious. That may work on the smaller ice but not overseas. Canada's issues were well beyond a few key omissions but I can't help but wonder what the offence & experience Brown, Domi & Nurse could have brought to this squad. Hard to believe Shinkaruk (w/ his blown hip), Girard & Severson were all ahead of those 3. I suspect there will be similar questions after the Olympic team is announced on Tues.
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Re: World Juniors

Postby Island Nucklehead » Sun Jan 05, 2014 11:56 am

Meds wrote:Canada did NOT deserve to be in the gold medal game. That's the bottom line. Outside of 2005 when we iced probably the deepest and most talented team to EVER skate at ANY WJC, Canada has been a bit of a slow starting group, usually gaining traction and gelling as a team in the last couple of round robin games. This year they never got that traction, and the certainly did not come together as a team, and that was ultimately the undoing. I point the finger at one guy for this, Sutter.


I think Canada over-thought the selection process, yet again. Picking the team early didn't lead to any cohesiveness. They left talented players at home (Max Domi, for one) and brought a balanced, two-way team that couldn't create or score enough. For stretches they couldn't make a fucking pass. Worst chemistry I've seen in a World Junior team.

Our best players weren't our best players against Finland. Drouin, for one, taking two misconduct penalties in elimination games (deserved or not) isn't acceptable. We need him on the ice. Depth guys like Gauthier, Laughton and yes, Horvat, not providing enough grit along the walls or using size to drive the net. The team had an identity on paper, yet never developed one on the ice.

Leadership. Where was it? Laughton was invisible most of the tournament. Drouin spent more time crying to the refs and being a one-man beer league all-star than helping make his team better. Dumba was one of our worst defencemen, a penalty machine (and not the good, agressive kind but the "this guy burned me so I tripped him" kind). I know why he was cut the last couple years, and frankly a guy like Nurse would've taken as many penalties but at least added some punishing hits. Dumba was a disaster. He was our NHL-level player, should've been our best player, and he was easily the worst NHL player in the tournament.

On the positive side, a lot of these guys will be able to return next year. If guys like Reinhart and Ekblad aren't in the NHL, we could have a few dominant players. McDavid will be a year older, and could be the best player in the tournament by then. Guys like Horvat, Fucale, Morrissey, Petan and even Drouin could be back next year if they don't make NHL teams.

Team Canada needs to stop thinking too hard. Other teams don't have that luxury, they take their best players and go. Canada needs to take their 3 or 4 best 2-way guys, and then take the 9 most talented guys. Worrying about how a guy plays the 200 game means you take a pile of safe players that can't create enough to get it done. Building a team to win 2-1 makes no sense if you have the horses to put up 5 or 6 goals. The D-men need to be able to skate, but they also need to intimidate. Canada was nowhere near aggressive enough, and it led to guys like Drouin taking stupid penalties and not doing what he's supposed to.
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Re: World Juniors

Postby Per » Sun Jan 05, 2014 1:43 pm

Overtime. Nerve wrecking.
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Re: World Juniors

Postby Per » Sun Jan 05, 2014 1:49 pm

Damn!

You have to say Ristolainen is a hell of a player though.

Sweden was the better team for sixty minutes, but Finland dominated the overtime.
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Re: World Juniors

Postby Per » Sun Jan 05, 2014 4:21 pm

Guess you could say the other team had the better Finnish.
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Re: World Juniors

Postby Strangelove » Sun Jan 05, 2014 4:52 pm

C'mon Per, show some emotion, I've heard Swedes can't stand losing to Finns.

THE SWEDES LOST TO THE FINNS!!! :lol:
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Re: World Juniors

Postby rats19 » Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:06 pm

Go damn Finns...this should not happen this is unacceptable. Fuck me I am going to kill myself... :wink:
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