GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD), 104

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Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Post by Rumsfeld » Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:03 pm

Kel wrote:I looked at the replays. Luongo fell on his stomach only after he saw the puck went in, on both goals. Still, it looked pretty bad and was completely unnecessary.
When you watch his flops in slow-mo it looks like he's trying to get both pads flat against the ice and totally take away the bottom of the net. The problem is that he can't move laterally from that position and most shooters go shelf these days anyway. He's taking away a small percentage of the net and opening up a huge percentage of the net, which makes it by definition a low percentage strategy for stopping the puck. Pretty hard to stop a rebound when you're lying flat on your stomach as well.

Rollie Melanson should be all over this I would think, unless it's his idea. The beginning of the Bellyflop Era seems to coincide with the "tweaks" to Lou's game that Melanson made last season.
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Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Post by tantalum » Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:16 pm

Topper wrote:Like it or not Tant, 2nd unit PP time is primo ice time. Maybe you should question his lack of PK time and why.
If you say so. When the first PP unit takes up 90 seconds on nearly every PP it isn't that much for anyone to be envious of. It is also a situation that fits his skill set. Who do you put there instead? Seriously who do you put there that would be a better choice?
To say he is treated as others on the team is hogwash and you know it. We had this debate earlier. Every other Canuck prospect in the lineup earned their ice time working their way up through the line up and on the PK. Only the Sedins, who came into a much different lineup, did not start out on the fourth line, yet they still played regular PK shifts.
You might want to look up your facts before putting them to paper (or computer screen). In their rookie season the twins averaged a COMBINED 8 seconds a game of PK time. Let's not pretend they took a regular shift when they most certainly didn't. In the second years they still averaged less than a minute a game. They were not regular shift PK guys at all. They got a regular PP shift. Why? because that was what fit their skill set and would help their development the most. Ryan Kesler his first 25 games as a canuck averaged 19 seconds.

Now let's also not forget that some of those guys came onto a team that was completely different in makeup and that they were also expected to be a different type of player than Hodgson. PK time was the best use of their talents. Being on the PP wasn't...unless you wanted to kill the PP unit. Some of those young guys can still kill a PP unit.
Does Hansen have 600 games under his belt? Does Bieksa have 600 games under his belt? Combined they don't have 600 games under their belts. Where did you pull that number from?
Clearly I was using a number ot make a point. They are veterans who know the NHL game and know not to make the mistakes they are making. They should not be learning the most basic of defensive plays in the NHL at this point. Especially having all this time under AV. Hodgson hasn't had that luxury yet.

Bieksa has played 427 games (essentially 5 full seasons). Hansen has played 262 NHL games (3 full seasons) (oh and combine that is over 600 games....unless playoff games don't count for some reason). When Hodgson reaches those same game levels he'll take just as much heat for making those mistakes. Fact is he is at game 44 and that game is far away better compared to game #1.
Was he the goat on the Tootoo goal, most certainly.
Did you point out the other goats that were arguably far more guilty?
Did he bail out on the physical plays I noted, yes he did.
Are you keeping track of that for ALL canucks? no? thought not because if you did you'd notice how many times the other players will bail. Heck Bieksa gives the puck away so much on the end boards because he won't take a hit. It;s also not unusual for a younger player to bail on some physical plays especially if it isn't their game...you know the whole LEARNING thing.
Is he caught bailing from the defensive zone early, yes he is.
Sometimes yes.....just like EVERY other forward on the team. Well every forward and Bieksa.

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Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Post by dbr » Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:22 pm

Rumsfeld wrote:If we can stay healthy in the top-9 (lol) we should be going after another top-4 defenseman at the deadline. A big nasty fourth-liner as well.
I'll be astonished if Gillis and Gilman can pull off a traditional deadline deal, with our total lack of cap space.

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Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Post by Potatoe1 » Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:31 pm

Topper wrote: Halischuck was Silent 3's man but Cody, once again turns away from making a play on the boards. That pass should never have made it to Tootoo.
Cody should have done a better job containing the pass, but the more serious mistake was the fact Tootoo was left all alone in a prime scoring location.

Hansen and Ballard both stood in no mans land looking at Tootoo, while covering no one.

Then again we are talking about Cody Hodgson here so the last thing in the world anyone should expect you to be is objective.

For those who don't know Topper stuck his neck out early by claiming Hodgson would be terrible, so all of these bizarre assessments we keep reading from him are really nothing more then a poster looking to save his rep.

The reality is as everyone else sees it.

Hodgson played a very good game. Scored a goal, hit a post, and generated several quality scoring chances. Made a mistake on 1 goal out of the 6 scored against, but other then that was steady and has a good effort in all 3 zones.

In terms of the season his even strength play has been a big positive as he has positive differentials in terms of goals, shots and scoring chances. In fact He has the best differentials among all of our bottom6 forwards and that is consistent across every recorded statistic (CORSI, Fenwik, Scoring chances, Plus minus etc).

He's also been one of our better power play contributors.

All of that said, I do have to agree with Topper in one area. Hodgson brings basically nothing to the table in terms of toughness or physicality.

This is a team that should be looking to add physicality over last years playoff roster not reduce it.

Heading into the playoffs the main question will be, does Cody's positive contribution to the teams goal differential make up for the fact we will have one less physical forward in the line up?

That is certainly a reasonable debate.

The debate that no longer seem reasonable is Cody's ability to be a good player in this league (though I'm sure Topper will give that one a good try).

He's already been a positive contributor to one of the best teams in the league and given the offensive skills he's demonstrated as well as his commitment to off ice training, it's seems very likely that he will make big strides over the next few years.

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Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Post by Benjo » Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:47 pm

Rumsfeld wrote:I know AV likes to green-light the defense but I'm getting palpitations watching Rome and Alberts pinching down low every shift like they're freaking Paul Coffey.
I believe Gillis told them to become more complete D-men or they would be as good as gone. I think they know they aren't Paul Coffey and would just like to keep their job.

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Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Post by Jovocop » Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:54 pm

Benjo wrote:
Rumsfeld wrote:I know AV likes to green-light the defense but I'm getting palpitations watching Rome and Alberts pinching down low every shift like they're freaking Paul Coffey.
I believe Gillis told them to become more complete D-men or they would be as good as gone. I think they know they aren't Paul Coffey and would just like to keep their job.
If that is the case, it's more like asking Volpatti to be Kesler... impossible...

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Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Post by Rumsfeld » Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:55 pm

Potatoe1 wrote:He's already been a positive contributor to one of the best teams in the league and given the offensive skills he's demonstrated as well as his commitment to off ice training, it's seems very likely that he will make big strides over the next few years.
He has elite NHL vision and passing skills to be sure. I'd say he has top-six 60-point potential next year and who knows the year after. 20 goals and 50 assists doesn't seem unreasonable given his talent.

He'd have to play the wing though. I don't think third-line center is where his skills would be best utilized. The best fit for him going forward is second-line center, which makes me think it's possible he gets moved. The way he's playing and at his age he is becoming a valuable bargaining chip if we do decide to go after a big name.

It's the kind of trade we might look back on years later with deep regret though. He is our only really good young offensive player and it's hard to know what his ceiling is as far as production goes.
Last edited by Rumsfeld on Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Post by rats19 » Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:04 pm

I am on record stating:..........dont trade silent g/3
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Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Post by Rumsfeld » Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:15 pm

rats19 wrote:I am on record stating:..........dont trade silent g/3
Duly noted Sir Ratski.

It would have to be one hell of a return to mollify concerns about his potential. The only reason I'd even consider it is because I have some doubts about where he best fits in short term. If you're taking the long haul approach you don't move him; he can help replace the twins as they age. If you're thinking short term win-the-cup-in-the-next two-years, I could see it happening.

As it stands now I wouldn't move him either.
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Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Post by Topper » Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:19 pm

Potatoe1 wrote:For those who don't know Topper stuck his neck out early by claiming Hodgson would be terrible, so all of these bizarre assessments we keep reading from him are really nothing more then a poster looking to save his rep.
Those of you who do not follow Spud's strawman will know I have consistently wished the best for Cody while never shying away or glossing over his short comings.
Potatoe1 wrote:All of that said, I do have to agree with Topper in one area. Hodgson brings basically nothing to the table in terms of toughness or physicality.
Now we are getting somewhere, I would say he avoids the table all together and it limited his good effort to one zone, not three.
Potatoe1 wrote:The debate that no longer seem reasonable is Cody's ability to be a good player in this league (though I'm sure Topper will give that one a good try).
At this point I question if he belongs in the line up of a Cup contender. I have little tolerance for folks learning on the job with the stage the Canuck's are at this season and would put Cody in the same boat as Tanev. If Raymond is anything close to the form he was in last season, i rather have Hodgson leaning his skills in Chicago than have to put up with rookie mistakes.

Tant, nice of you to just throw number out there while asking others to check theirs. :D

I'm glad you folks have come around to realizing, as I said in my initial post, that Cody was the goat on Tootoo's goal, and is soft.

Rummy - Elite?, hyperbole?
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Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Post by Corb » Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:22 pm

Hockey Widow wrote:We do need another solid top 4 on the back end, of that I am convinced.

Just a disappointing result. Av was quick to pul Cory after the first. That was a knee jerk reaction because he desperately wanted to get Luongo in the net. I think if he sticks with Cory we win that game. He should have let the kid work it out and started Luongo next game. How many times have we seen him leave Luongo in after horrible starts? It was a reaction to the goaltending controversy that does not exist.
I agree with the need for another defensemen, maybe we'll see Tanev soon. With respect to the goalie yank, I agree with what you wrote above. During the game I was positive ( :look: ) that he'd leave Schneider in to start the second - I still feel he earned another period.

Anyway, interesting times. I'm not sure this team is as good as last year, it just seems to have a different feel.

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Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Post by Rumsfeld » Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:24 pm

Topper wrote:Rummy - Elite?, hyperbole?
When it comes to passing I think he has elite potential, yeah. He makes dishes on a regular basis that very few NHL players can make. The rest of his game has a ways to go for sure.

I'd like to see him get open to fire it a bit more, he has a good shot -- but his linemates aren't exactly high-level playmakers.
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Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Post by Potatoe1 » Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:27 pm

Rumsfeld wrote:
Potatoe1 wrote:He's already been a positive contributor to one of the best teams in the league and given the offensive skills he's demonstrated as well as his commitment to off ice training, it's seems very likely that he will make big strides over the next few years.
He has elite NHL vision and passing skills to be sure. I'd say he has top-six 60-point potential next year and who knows the year after.

He'd have to play the wing though. I don't think third-line center is where his skills would be best utilized. The best fit for him going forward is second-line center, which makes me think it's possible he gets moved. The way he's playing and at his age he is becoming a valuable bargaining chip if we do decide to go after a big name.

It's the kind of trade we might look back on years later with deep regret though. He is our only really good young offensive player and it's hard to know what his ceiling is as far as production goes.
I doubt he gets traded.

But I do agree, with the rest of your post.

Point totals are just as much about opportunity as they are about skill. It would take a small miracle for a guy A guy playing 13mpg on the 3rd line and only getting second unit power play time to crack 60 points.

That said, a players contribution to their team should really not be measured in terms of point totals.

Players should be measured by their ability to increase the teams incremental goal differential over an average player in the same role, getting the same ice time.

In other words a player performing far above average in a smaller role, generally contributes more to his team winning then a player in a bigger role who's performance is below average. This is normally true even if the player in the larger role posts significantly more points over all.

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Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Post by Rumsfeld » Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:29 pm

Corb wrote: Anyway, interesting times. I'm not sure this team is as good as last year, it just seems to have a different feel.
I think they're probably as good as last year, at least on paper. The difference this year is that we don't have Ehrhoff carrying the puck up the ice and Bieksa has been horrible. Like really really horrible.

Oh, and that Luongo guy has sucked balls as well (just like I prognosticated in the predictions thread). ;) I predicted this would be his worst regular season in a really long time, because I knew that Final performance and all the scrutiny that followed was going to fuck the dude up bad. Still hope I'm wrong about that one.
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Re: GDT: Canucks vs Predators | Dec 1 @ 7pm | SNET-VAN (HD),

Post by Rumsfeld » Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:42 pm

Potatoe1 wrote:I doubt he gets traded.

But I do agree, with the rest of your post.

Point totals are just as much about opportunity as they are about skill. It would take a small miracle for a guy A guy playing 13mpg on the 3rd line and only getting second unit power play time to crack 60 points.

That said, a players contribution to their team should really not be measured in terms of point totals.

Players should be measured by their ability to increase the teams incremental goal differential over an average player in the same role, getting the same ice time.

In other words a player performing far above average in a smaller role, generally contributes more to his team winning then a player in a bigger role who's performance is below average. This is normally true even if the player in the larger role posts significantly more points over all.
So how do you see him realizing his potential on the third line next season? The season after? Does he move to the wing on the second line next year, where he's looked far less effective as a playmaker? Kelser and Henrik aren't going anywhere. Higgins and Booth are coming back next year as well, though Higgins would be great on the third line so I could see them eventually exchanging places if Cody keeps progressing.

These questions are the only reason I'd even consider moving him.
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