GDT: Nov 13: Grabner @ Ballard 6:00 SPac

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Re: GDT: Nov 13: Grabner @ Ballard 6:00 SPac

Postby Listercat » Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:25 pm

Pot if you are correct in your assessment of why Everyone is down on Raymond that rationale is pretty flimsy. Kesler had 4 goals at even strength in 25 games, Chris Higgins had 3 and Raymond had 2. I agree that secondary scoring was a problem in the playoffs, but that stick could also be used to beat our D corps. Then of course we have to look at the injuries guys were playing with that certainly made them less effective.

If people want to lay blame for underacheiving in the playoffs you need to look no farther than the Sedins who were atrocious defensively with Hank at -11 and Daniel at -9. Both Edler and Erhoff were minus players with Erhoff at -13. Yes he was playing hurt as was Edler. Bieksa, Hammer and Rome were the only D men on the plus side in the playoffs. Good goaltending and defense wins in the Playoffs and the Canucks showed neither consistently in the Finals especially.
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Re: GDT: Nov 13: Grabner @ Ballard 6:00 SPac

Postby tantalum » Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:57 pm

I don't think there is any question that Booth needs to sharpen his defensive game. No one should be arguing different. However, it is also seems pretty clear that he has never had to be in a truly responsible system or even in a system that cared he knew what to do.

What he does do well is work and work hard from what I can see. He doesn't take shifts off. Typically players that work hard and can produce at a top 6 rate like he does have a good enough head on their shoulders to learn and make the appropriate changes to their game to at least become an average defensive player. We aren't talking a Rene Bourque who more often than not puts in a terrible effort and has no desire or no ability to learn the finer points of the game (if he did he could be a more than superb two-way player). Or even a Mikael Samuelsson who had the brains and ability but not the work ethic. Booth seems closer to Raymond who while having decent offensive skills needed to improve the defensive aspects of his game....and boy did he ever do so. Booth may never reach that level of prowess but I think he'll be fine.

So yes he needs to work on his game. No question. But if he can do that work while still producing points and helping out the second unit PP by giving it a net presence then that is a good thing. Honestly, as I write this I can't help but think the canucks knew he was going to have issues on the defensive side of things and made the deal early precisely because he needed that time. I can't help but think the final 30 games of the season we may be seeing a completely different David Booth (i also can't help but wonder how he compares now to his first couple of games as a canuck).

Provided God wants that for him of course.
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Re: GDT: Nov 13: Grabner @ Ballard 6:00 SPac

Postby Potatoe1 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:17 pm

Listercat wrote:Pot if you are correct in your assessment of why Everyone is down on Raymond that rationale is pretty flimsy. Kesler had 4 goals at even strength in 25 games, Chris Higgins had 3 and Raymond had 2. I agree that secondary scoring was a problem in the playoffs, but that stick could also be used to beat our D corps. Then of course we have to look at the injuries guys were playing with that certainly made them less effective.


Kes was probably our best forward in the playoffs last year so I'm not sure what your point is on that. I would consider having Ryan Kesler on our second line to be a major strength not a weakness.

Higgens was brought in as a depth forward and his contract is reflective of that. He also had a broken foot and was relatively new to the Canucks system. There is a very good chance that a healthy Higges would perform far better this year then he did last year.

Raymond was penciled in as a second liner last year and had every opportunity in the playoffs. He wasn't injured, he got loads of ice time, he was familiar with the system and he just wasn't able to get it done. My personnel opinion is that his lack of creativity and in ability to play in the tough parts of the ice, make him fairly easy to contain offensively. I don't think his performance would be significantly better if he were given another chance in that role.

I'm not trying to pick on Raymond, I like him as a player, but he isn't the guy I would be relying on to play in a second line spot heading into the playoffs. I would rather see him in a 3rd line role where he would receive less rigorous defensive attention.

The strengths of his game are his speed, his defensive game, and his ability to move the puck and keep it in the offensive zone. Seems like an almost perfect fit
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Re: GDT: Nov 13: Grabner @ Ballard 6:00 SPac

Postby dhabums » Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:18 pm

tantalum wrote:Provided God wants that for him of course.


It depends on how hard we pray.
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Re: GDT: Nov 13: Grabner @ Ballard 6:00 SPac

Postby rats19 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:20 pm

dhabums wrote:
tantalum wrote:Provided God wants that for him of course.


It depends on how hard we pray.

pray rewy hard evwy shift...it will work out
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Re: GDT: Nov 13: Grabner @ Ballard 6:00 SPac

Postby Topper » Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:21 pm

Hockey Widow wrote:The bubble will burst for Rome soon enough but for now it is nice to see. Good on him.

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Re: GDT: Nov 13: Grabner @ Ballard 6:00 SPac

Postby Meds » Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:49 pm

Listercat wrote:
Jovocop wrote:I think you need to "review" some game tape from last year. Raymond many times turned defenders inside out to create time and space to set up Kesler or make a diagonal cross ice pass to the D man on the back side. With regard to him not shooting, I seem to recall there were more complaints about him taking too many shots from a bad angle than there were about him not shooting.


I think it's you, Listercat, that need to review the game tape. Raymond's signature move is to blaze with the puck up the wing, if the defense has backed off and taken away the option of a shot, Raymond puts on the breaks, button hooks, goes back up to the blueline and then dumps the puck to the corner and around the boards. If the defender is giving chase, instead of using his speed to drive the net, he lets go with a telegraphed slapshot from a poor angle that usually hits the goaltender square in the chest.

I will stipulate that there are indeed games where Raymond does go to the net and play a better game. However, those games are few and far between.
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Re: GDT: Nov 13: Grabner @ Ballard 6:00 SPac

Postby Listercat » Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:38 pm

Pot I don't argue that Kesler was probably our best player and he got 4 goals in 25 games at even strength. That was my point.
Higgins was injured and Kes was injured but Raymond was supposed to make up for them? Higgins contract has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. He was playing on the line with Raymond and Kesler. Kesler had one very strong series and that was against the Preds.

I'm not saying Raymond had a great playoffs offensively by any means, but he seems to be the sacrificial lamb. He was a -2 for the playoffs which isn't good at all,but as I said earlier, while the Sedins, Erhoff and Edler may have produced more points they were also far worse on the Defensive side of the puck. By that logic you would have to say that Raymond's all around game was not that bad.

Meds, either your memory is short or your eyes need to be checked.
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Re: GDT: Nov 13: Grabner @ Ballard 6:00 SPac

Postby Potatoe1 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:09 pm

Listercat wrote:Pot I don't argue that Kesler was probably our best player and he got 4 goals in 25 games at even strength. That was my point.


I still don't get your point?

What does Kesler being our best forward in the post season have to do with Raymond?

Higgins was injured and Kes was injured but Raymond was supposed to make up for them? Higgins contract has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion.


You brought up Higgens... I simply pointed out that he was aquired and signed to be a depth forward, not a guy to be relied upon to score at a second line rate in the post season.

He was playing on the line with Raymond and Kesler. Kesler had one very strong series and that was against the Preds.


Kes had a very good playoff, again I'm not sure what your point is.


I'm not saying Raymond had a great playoffs offensively by any means, but he seems to be the sacrificial lamb. He was a -2 for the playoffs which isn't good at all,but as I said earlier, while the Sedins, Erhoff and Edler may have produced more points they were also far worse on the Defensive side of the puck. By that logic you would have to say that Raymond's all around game was not that bad.


I didn't say his "all round game was bad" I said he didn't score any where close to enough in the playoffs, and that the Canucks shouldn't rely on him to score at a significantly higher level in the playoffs this year.

Do you disagree with that?
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Re: GDT: Nov 13: Grabner @ Ballard 6:00 SPac

Postby Island Nucklehead » Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:35 pm

Gillis' entire operating method seems to be depth. Build depth on "D", build depth at goal, and now build depth up front.

If the Sedins and Kesler don't produce points in the playoffs we're hosed. It's not going to matter if Raymond or Booth or Higgins step up. If our big three up front falter (as last season), or our d completely fall to pieces (past couple playoffs), or our goalie implodes (vs Chicago, in Boston in SCF)... we're not going to win.

Gillis is counting on a couple of these guys playing up to potential during the playoffs, and that being enough to win. Last season we were too banged up. Kesler pretty much single-handedly won us the Nashville series. Bieksa had one of the best playoff series by a D-man in recent history vs. San Jose. In the end the depth couldn't do enough to overcome the injuries and poor play of our key players at times in the Final.

Ultimately we really don't need another superstar or point-per-game guy, we need guys like Raymond, Booth, Burrows, Higgins, Hodgson, Hansen etc. to do their jobs and chip in SOME offense.
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Re: GDT: Nov 13: Grabner @ Ballard 6:00 SPac

Postby Listercat » Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:46 pm

Christ you are obtuse Pot !!

You said Kesler was the best forward. He scored 4 goals at even strength in 25 games. That equates to 13 goals over a regular season. I certainly don't call that highly productive, do you? Raymond scored 2 goals at even strength and Higgins got 3. Did they not play as a line in the playoffs? If you don't compare to your linemates who do you compare to? I brought up Higgins because they played on the same line. Why shouldn't they have expected Higgins to score, he had done it previously?

In short none of the players on that line scored the way they could or should have. Kesler did most of his scoring in the Preds series. That line, including Raymond played shutdown hockey in the Hawks series against the Toews line and did little scoring. In the Sharks series they were up against the Thornton line. The Preds don't have much for offensive weapons so their defensive responsibility was easier. Consequently the offense improved. In the Finals they faced the top line again most of the time and while they didn't score they were not scored upon as much as the other lines either.With Malhotra out that line's role changed.

Believe what you will but look at the whole picture
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Re: GDT: Nov 13: Grabner @ Ballard 6:00 SPac

Postby Potatoe1 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:04 pm

Listercat wrote:Christ you are obtuse Pot !!

You said Kesler was the best forward. He scored 4 goals at even strength in 25 games. That equates to 13 goals over a regular season. I certainly don't call that highly productive, do you? Raymond scored 2 goals at even strength and Higgins got 3. Did they not play as a line in the playoffs? If you don't compare to your linemates who do you compare to? I brought up Higgins because they played on the same line. Why shouldn't they have expected Higgins to score, he had done it previously?

In short none of the players on that line scored the way they could or should have. Kesler did most of his scoring in the Preds series. That line, including Raymond played shutdown hockey in the Hawks series against the Toews line and did little scoring. In the Sharks series they were up against the Thornton line. The Preds don't have much for offensive weapons so their defensive responsibility was easier. Consequently the offense improved. In the Finals they faced the top line again most of the time and while they didn't score they were not scored upon as much as the other lines either.With Malhotra out that line's role changed.

Believe what you will but look at the whole picture


Seriously what are you on about...

Kesler more then doubled Raymond's point totals, and more then tripled his goal totals.

Why are you comparing players that are simply not comparable.

Kesler and Raymond are not comparable in terms of talent, production, or over all performance. Kesler is miles better in every way hands down, and if you think other wise you have lost your mind.

As I said, I like Raymond, but a player who gets 2 goals and 8 points over 25 games and isn't a serious victim of circumstance, is not someone you want to rely on for second line production heading into next years post season.

Do you agree or disagree with that argument because it is the only important point in all of this fluff.
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Re: GDT: Nov 13: Grabner @ Ballard 6:00 SPac

Postby Listercat » Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:21 pm

WHere exactly did I say I thought Raymond was as good as Kesler? Sure Kesler doubled or tripled in point totals. How many were on the 1st unit PP?

What I was attempting to show was that Raymond's point totals were on balance no worse than his teammates and his overall play was IMO better than many.

Some people like to look at stats in isolation and refuse to see beyond that. Talk about "fluff".

At any rate this "discussion" has become fruitless and boring.
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Re: GDT: Nov 13: Grabner @ Ballard 6:00 SPac

Postby RoyalDude » Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:24 pm

The bottom-line is, Booth is way overpaid and so we are not getting good value. The guy isn't that good. If he was the next coming of Bill Guerin like some of you Booth-man-crushers seem to think, the Panthers wouldn't have given up on him and tossed in a 3rd round pick for the services of the oft-injured old-man Samuelsson for the remainder of the year and that has-been old-man coming off knee surgery - Sturm.

I see nothing but the cons of what were told about the pros and cons of David Booth. Can't pass if his life depended on it cause he puts the blinders on like no player I have seen before, he is the king of 'give-aways, looks completely loss without the puck, has zero anticipation of play and can't read a cycle for the life of him. Absolutely horrible on defense. Where is the good? Raymond is way more dynamic of a player, more skill set on the offensive side of the game, plays both ends of the rink real well and is cheaper. Way more plus's in Raymonds game than that of Booth.
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Re: GDT: Nov 13: Grabner @ Ballard 6:00 SPac

Postby Potatoe1 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:58 pm

Listercat wrote:What I was attempting to show was that Raymond's point totals were on balance no worse than his teammates .



You can atempt to show what ever you like, but your just pain wrong on this issue.

Every one of our 3rd liners had more goals then Raymond despite getting virtually no power play time.

Further to that, 4 of our top 6 defenseman had the same or more goals.

When a healthy second liner getting loads of power play time, is getting out scored by your entire 3rd line and most of your defensemen there is a problem.

Further to that every Bruin top 9 forward out scored Raymond as well. In fact most of then scored double, triple or quadruple, what Raymond scored.

Good defensive players who don't score enough play on the 3rd and 4th lines, not the second.

Raymond simply didn't score enough, I have no idea why you are trying to defend him on this...
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