GDT: R2G6 - Canucks @ Chicago - 6pm - CBC, VS

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Re: GDT: R2G6 - Canucks @ Chicago - 6pm - CBC, VS

Postby Island Nucklehead » Thu May 14, 2009 11:54 am

You mean what would happen if Mats Sundin was playing in front of them? Not a whole lot I imagine. :lol:
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Re: GDT: R2G6 - Canucks @ Chicago - 6pm - CBC, VS

Postby Mikodat » Thu May 14, 2009 12:16 pm

Labarbera was 3-2-2 all season with 2.66 and a .915


.915 is a lot better than Luongo's sv average in the Chicago series... in fact its better than the .914 he got in the 2 rounds of the playoffs. Don't kid yourselves that Luongo wasn't the main reason Canucks lost the series.. The team had to feel let down by his performance in game 3 and Chicago was let off the mat. Of course everyone is pointing at the D.. fair enough.. Mitchell had a couple bad games. Rest played about par for the course. The other problem is with our forwards not coming back fast enough or checking hard enough. With 5 Chicago players in the zone it isn't just the D thats to blame if a man is left unchecked. Raymond ( yeah he looked good at times ) ended up with a -2... Sorry to say he just isn't big enough to handle the defensive end of the game.. Maybe its time to quit throwing rocks at Sundin ? Nobody expected him to be fast and he did put up decent numbers . Burrows play was disappointing and our 3rd line just didn't get the job done..

Lack of scoring? Not really.. over the 10 games the Canucks averaged 3 goals per game, more than enough to win if Luongo played at his top level. Sure the D had some lapses but overall was adequate . To blame Willie and Ollie for the entire defensive meltdown is ludicrous.. This series loss was a team loss and much of the blame has to be on Luongo.
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Re: GDT: R2G6 - Canucks @ Chicago - 6pm - CBC, VS

Postby the Cunning Linguist » Thu May 14, 2009 12:47 pm

Mikodat wrote:.915 is a lot better than Luongo's sv average in the Chicago series...

Show me where any one of Babs/Sanford would have fared better against Chicago.

Mikodat wrote:in fact its better than the .914 he got in the 2 rounds of the playoffs. Don't kid yourselves that Luongo wasn't the main reason Canucks lost the series..

Good lord... And do you think Babs/Sanford would have gone 4-0 against St.Louis? I'd argue just the opposite; with anyone else in net, this team has to play more, not less, defensively, and thus their offense would suffer. This is a moot point because everyone and his dog (except perhaps you) would rather have Luongo in net in the playoffs than any one of Babs, Sanford or Schneider.

Mikodat wrote:Sure the D had some lapses but overall was adequate . To blame Willie and Ollie for the entire defensive meltdown is ludicrous.. This series loss was a team loss and much of the blame has to be on Luongo.

This is a team loss against a Chicago team that had the elements and execution to take apart Vancouver's strengths; give that team some credit. I don't care if it was Babs, Sanford, or Schneider back there, the result would have been the same.

In fact, show me how any other goalie would have performed better or stopped any of the goals that were scored against Luongo.
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Re: GDT: R2G6 - Canucks @ Chicago - 6pm - CBC, VS

Postby Larry Goodenough » Thu May 14, 2009 12:50 pm

Island Nucklehead wrote:You mean what would happen if Mats Sundin was playing in front of them? Not a whole lot I imagine. :lol:



First, Sundin was included in the cap number, without Luongo you would have had Sundin and still 6 million more.

You seem too hung up on keep him/trade him talk of Luongo to appreciate the debate. I also think keeping Luongo long term is the best move.

Now, that we're in agreement, you have to admit there is a legitimate debate in strong goalie/weaker skaters vs weaker goalie/stronger skaters. That is what I was trying to touch on.
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Re: GDT: R2G6 - Canucks @ Chicago - 6pm - CBC, VS

Postby the Cunning Linguist » Thu May 14, 2009 1:03 pm

Larry Goodenough wrote:Now, that we're in agreement, you have to admit there is a legitimate debate in strong goalie/weaker skaters vs weaker goalie/stronger skaters.


Strong goalie/weaker skaters
Vancouver Canucks, this season.

Weaker goalie/stronger skaters
Vancouver Canucks, circa 2002/03

A strong goalie is harder to find than strong skaters. Can a team succeed by having a goalie that's good enough? Perhaps, but you'd probably have to surround him with the kind of team that Detroit can put out there, and 29 other teams haven't been able to duplicate that.
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Re: GDT: R2G6 - Canucks @ Chicago - 6pm - CBC, VS

Postby Island Nucklehead » Thu May 14, 2009 3:26 pm

Well let's look at it this way...

In terms of salary paid to goaltenders, 7 of the top 10 teams made the playoffs (in order: Chi, Van, NYR, Ana, Cgy, NJD and the Sharks). The teams that didn't were Florida, Dallas and Toronto.

Pitts, Bos, Wash sit 11-13.

The only teams not top 15 goalie spenders to make the playoffs were St Louis, Columbus, Carolina and Detroit. The first two of those teams were swept in the first round.

If that doesn't make the case for putting adequate resources into goaltending I'm not sure what is. After all, there's only one Detroit, and Cam Ward will be looking for big money when he's up after next season, probably pushing him into the top 10.
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Re: GDT: R2G6 - Canucks @ Chicago - 6pm - CBC, VS

Postby Larry Goodenough » Thu May 14, 2009 4:46 pm

the Cunning Linguist wrote:
Larry Goodenough wrote:Now, that we're in agreement, you have to admit there is a legitimate debate in strong goalie/weaker skaters vs weaker goalie/stronger skaters.


Strong goalie/weaker skaters
Vancouver Canucks, this season.

Weaker goalie/stronger skaters
Vancouver Canucks, circa 2002/03

A strong goalie is harder to find than strong skaters. Can a team succeed by having a goalie that's good enough? Perhaps, but you'd probably have to surround him with the kind of team that Detroit can put out there, and 29 other teams haven't been able to duplicate that.


sigh.... there was no salary cap in 2002/03. Apples and oranges

Once again, all I'm saying is if you have a finite amount of money to spend, you have to decide which proportions at each position works best for your team. And, again, I'm just saying it's a debatable topic, I'm not saying one way is better or has worked better because there are cases for each approach. Again, that's why it's an interesting debate.
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Re: GDT: R2G6 - Canucks @ Chicago - 6pm - CBC, VS

Postby the Cunning Linguist » Thu May 14, 2009 8:58 pm

Larry Goodenough wrote:Once again, all I'm saying is if you have a finite amount of money to spend, you have to decide which proportions at each position works best for your team. And, again, I'm just saying it's a debatable topic, I'm not saying one way is better or has worked better because there are cases for each approach. Again, that's why it's an interesting debate.

So you'd rather spend it on a skater who will play 20-25 minutes a game instead a goalie who will play 60 minutes a game?

Let's not forget that the market isn't exactly free - year to year, the market is limited to the free agents available at that time. Then there's the inherent competition for talent that IS available and pretty soon, you have to overpay for every UFA you get... So you also have to factor in the risk of NOT being able to sign the players you covet.

The other overlooked factor here is how much better was our d with someone like Luongo back there to bail them out? Is it possible that a great goalie like Luongo made this team look far better than it was defensively? Perhaps not in this series but an argument could be made that his ability covered up many inherent weaknesses (lack of skill, slow, injury-prone).
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Re: GDT: R2G6 - Canucks @ Chicago - 6pm - CBC, VS

Postby Larry Goodenough » Thu May 14, 2009 10:45 pm

Island Nucklehead wrote:Well let's look at it this way...

In terms of salary paid to goaltenders, 7 of the top 10 teams made the playoffs (in order: Chi, Van, NYR, Ana, Cgy, NJD and the Sharks). The teams that didn't were Florida, Dallas and Toronto.

Pitts, Bos, Wash sit 11-13.

The only teams not top 15 goalie spenders to make the playoffs were St Louis, Columbus, Carolina and Detroit. The first two of those teams were swept in the first round.

If that doesn't make the case for putting adequate resources into goaltending I'm not sure what is. After all, there's only one Detroit, and Cam Ward will be looking for big money when he's up after next season, probably pushing him into the top 10.


Yay, an actual debate!

Now, I could argue of the final 4 in this years playoffs, only 1 team was in the top 10 in salary committed to goalies.

And I could argue Chicago is only in the top 10 because they could not trade Khabibulin or get anyone to take him off waivers. If Tallon could go back to last summer, he probably would have chosen a backup who makes under a million. Then the Hawks would have also been outside the top 10.

And I could argue Carolina won in '06 with a rookie. Washington was within a win of going to the conference finals with a rookie. Columbus made it to the playoffs for the first time ever with a rookie.

Again, before this goes sideways again, I think keeping Luongo long term is the best plan, it's just a really good debate.
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Re: GDT: R2G6 - Canucks @ Chicago - 6pm - CBC, VS

Postby Larry Goodenough » Thu May 14, 2009 10:58 pm

the Cunning Linguist wrote:
Larry Goodenough wrote:Once again, all I'm saying is if you have a finite amount of money to spend, you have to decide which proportions at each position works best for your team. And, again, I'm just saying it's a debatable topic, I'm not saying one way is better or has worked better because there are cases for each approach. Again, that's why it's an interesting debate.

So you'd rather spend it on a skater who will play 20-25 minutes a game instead a goalie who will play 60 minutes a game?

Let's not forget that the market isn't exactly free - year to year, the market is limited to the free agents available at that time. Then there's the inherent competition for talent that IS available and pretty soon, you have to overpay for every UFA you get... So you also have to factor in the risk of NOT being able to sign the players you covet.

The other overlooked factor here is how much better was our d with someone like Luongo back there to bail them out? Is it possible that a great goalie like Luongo made this team look far better than it was defensively? Perhaps not in this series but an argument could be made that his ability covered up many inherent weaknesses (lack of skill, slow, injury-prone).



One more time, I didn't say I'd rather spend money one way more than another. You even quoted me - "I'm not saying one way is better or has worked better because there are cases for each approach."

However, your other points are interesting.

To steal your analogy, if you spread an extra $6 million on two defencemen, you could upgrade from two above average $3 million d-men to two all-star d-men in the $6 million range. One or the other could be on the ice for 90%-95% of a crucial game and could bail out an average goalie.

Also, no where did anyone say you could only spend money saved on goaltending on UFAs. You could spend on keeping the players you already have who's contracts are expiring or you could spend it through trades.
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Re: GDT: R2G6 - Canucks @ Chicago - 6pm - CBC, VS

Postby Island Nucklehead » Thu May 14, 2009 11:11 pm

Kind of like Anaheim, who had Pronger and Niedermayer, AND a hot rookie goalie (as well as a high-priced backup), and still lost in the same round as we did.
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Re: GDT: R2G6 - Canucks @ Chicago - 6pm - CBC, VS

Postby Cornuck » Fri May 15, 2009 8:30 am

Maybe we should just all become Wings fans? :roll:
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Re: GDT: R2G6 - Canucks @ Chicago - 6pm - CBC, VS

Postby nucks_girl » Fri May 15, 2009 9:14 am

I kinda sorta used to be a Wings fan, but it was more of a "I love Steve Yzerman" thing than a Wings fling :D

After he retired, I'm 'meh' about the Wings. Got Franzen in my hockey pool last year though, that's been huge since it's a dynasty league. He's gold!
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Re: GDT: R2G6 - Canucks @ Chicago - 6pm - CBC, VS

Postby Larry Goodenough » Fri May 15, 2009 12:32 pm

Island Nucklehead wrote:Kind of like Anaheim, who had Pronger and Niedermayer, AND a hot rookie goalie (as well as a high-priced backup), and still lost in the same round as we did.



Ya, or, kind of like Anaheim 2 years ago who had Pronger and Neidermeyer, AND an average goalie (who couldn't even start 2 years later) that won the cup.

Thanks for teeing that one up for me.
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Re: GDT: R2G6 - Canucks @ Chicago - 6pm - CBC, VS

Postby LotusBlossom » Fri May 15, 2009 12:40 pm

nucks_girl wrote:I kinda sorta used to be a Wings fan, but it was more of a "I love Steve Yzerman" thing than a Wings fling :D

After he retired, I'm 'meh' about the Wings. Got Franzen in my hockey pool last year though, that's been huge since it's a dynasty league. He's gold!


I'm still an Yzerman fan....hubba hubba.. ;)
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