The Glass is Half Empty....

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The Glass is Half Empty....

Postby Spock » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:24 am

At this point, it is impossible to argue that the Canucks are a better team for the upcoming season than they were last season.

1) one year older on a veteran laden team.
2) less depth at defense
3) less depth in goal.
4) the few young forwards Canucks employ have not shined at the NHL level thus far.
5) no cap room to improve the team.

Basically, Canucks are praying that the current roster can play better.

Sounds like the definition of insanity to me.

We aren't Calgary yet, but getting there.....
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Re: The Glass is Half Empty....

Postby rockjetty » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:28 am

Missing from the list:
6) Torts for AV shake-up

They aren't praying the current roster can play better -- they paid a coach to make them play better 8-)
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Re: The Glass is Half Empty....

Postby vic » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:38 am

7) No more goalie controversy
8) Healthy 2C to start the season

rockjetty wrote:Missing from the list:
6) Torts for AV shake-up
They aren't praying the current roster can play better -- they paid a coach to make them play better 8-)


Players coming into training camp and early in the season won't have the luxury of past seasons when they knew exactly where and how they would be playing...I think this will be the first "TRUE" training camp in 3 years the Canucks are going to participate in.
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Re: The Glass is Half Empty....

Postby Topper » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:50 am

Precisely why I'd be patient this year with a shuttle of Comet kids and the risk reward of them playing in the bigs.
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Re: The Glass is Half Empty....

Postby Tiger » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:50 am

rockjetty wrote:Missing from the list:
6) Torts for AV shake-up

They aren't praying the current roster can play better -- they paid a coach to make them play better 8-)


I seem to remember the last time we got a coach from the Rangers.. ? :(...didn't quite work out ..
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Re: The Glass is Half Empty....

Postby Lancer » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:53 am

Call me a 'glass half full' kind of guy, but there is reason to believe this team can do better and significantly so.

Couple of reasons for this optimism:

1) No goaltending drama distraction. There is no doubt that it had a distracting effect on the room even though both Cory and Roberto handled it as well as possible.Everyone was waiting for Lou to get traded, and then when he wasn't it was a question of well 'who will start?' That's not the case going into next year, where Lou is the guy and will be lpaying for a spot on the national team.

2) New coach. Say what you will about Torts, there is reason to believe that the team's play will improve if for no other reason than their tactics will change. The Canucks got predictable in so many parts of the game, so whatever tactics Torts and Co. have up their sleeves will at least create some uncertainty on the other side of the ice. IMHO, this team needs someone to shake them out of their malaise, and Torts will do that where Vigneault had put himself into a position where he couldn't even if he wanted to.

3) Improvement by some young players. Even though Schroeder underwent shoulder surgery, he does have experience and may be given more of a role under Torts. As for Tanev, he can only improve and I believe there is scope for him to do that. One of the prospects may surprise at camp. None of this is anything on which you can bank much but it's better than before when there was no chance of roster spots for young prospects.

4) Healthy players. Say what you will about Booth, but he should be ready to go to start next season - something you could not say of him at any point last season. I'm still not convinced Daniel had fully recovered from his concussion. Headache free, likely, but it's that mental reluctance to go into high-traffic areas where he used to go during his prime years. There is reason to believe that Edler was still hurt somewhat, beyond his back issues, and time will heal a guy who is still south of 30.

You say the blueline depth is shallower, but considering how little Ballard was used, is it that significant a drop? Gillis added another right-hander in Weber, and Corrado may be a regular contributor on the big club come the end of the season. The key parts of the blueline are still there so I don't see the same red light you see.

Maybe my glasses are a little rosy, but there is still reason to believe that this club can do better than last year - given the talent on the club and their competition they couldn't do much worse. They sleep-walked through just about every game last season until the 2nd period of the last game of the playoffs, waiting for the other shoe to drop. Tortorella will not allow that.

As for the Calgary comparison, given that the Sedins are in the last year of their contracts, the probable rising of the salary cap and a potentially better FA crop, if the Canucks don't get better you can believe that there is ample opportunity to re-shape the club rather than linger on like Calgary.
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Re: The Glass is Half Empty....

Postby UWSaint » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:05 am

Spock wrote:At this point, it is impossible to argue that the Canucks are a better team for the upcoming season than they were last season.

....

We aren't Calgary yet, but getting there.....


Not impossible to argue the Cancuks will be better, but certainly illogical Mr. Spock....

The Canucks are not done, but they are now in the soup of good-not-great teams where if everything breaks correctly they could have a run, but realistically getting to the second round would be a very successful season. This is actually the position Calgary was in when they made their Cup run, so at least our downward slide is starting at their peak.... And it is also the place where the Canucks were at the height of the WCE era.

The fact is that the Canucks first line is on the decline. Good, at times very good, but no longer great.

The second line is never healthy.

There is (yet again) no third line center, and the top 9 is missing a player.

Alex Edler didn't become that rare player that is #1 at all things and can play 25 muinutes.

Outside of simply not being hurt, there is no reason to believe any of the players you depend on (basically everyone outside of the 4th line) will take a material step forward, outside, perhaps, of Chris Tanev and Kassian (and Kassian based solely on age and pedigree, not deliverables). And those who might be expected to take measurable (if not material) steps forward, like Jordan Schroeder, aren't going to be big impact players (and frankly have as good of a chance as taking that small step forward with another team after being waived...).

But it is still a good team. A good, not great, group of forwards. A deep and good group of defensemen, but still no #1. A good goaltender, but no plan B.

And unlike the past several seasons, some reason to believe there are a handful of future *contributing* NHL players in the system.

So, you see, this is nothing like Calgary....
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Re: The Glass is Half Empty....

Postby Tiger » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:24 am

rockjetty wrote:Missing from the list:
6) Torts for AV shake-up

They aren't praying the current roster can play better -- they paid a coach to make them play better 8-)


and a preview of how that works out is on for our Exhibition schedule.. AV bringing the Rags to Vancouver for an exhibition game :). going to be interesting..
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Re: The Glass is Half Empty....

Postby vic » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:25 am

UWSaint wrote:
There is (yet again) no third line center, and the top 9 is missing a player.


So the team can go out and find that player, or start giving those roles to the players they have in their system to avoid going through this year after year after year.

It was pretty clear over the past two seasons under AV a forward was not going to be given that opportunity, then you look at what Torts was able to do with guys like Callahan (sp?) and Stepan and I don't know how anyone can't be excited to have the likes of Gaunce, Jensen, Schroeder, Horvat and Shinkaruk learning the game under Torts (who will give them all every opportunity to develop).
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Re: The Glass is Half Empty....

Postby herb » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:27 am

I am a glass half full kind of guy. I think it’s too easy to expect failure, and even easier to expect failure and then say “see, I told ya so!” when only one team wins a championship.

First off, Calgary was never as good as this Canucks team has been over the past 5 or 6 seasons. That comparison sucks. The Flames basically got lucky in 2004, played way above their talent level, made it to the finals, and then rode that core with Iginla, and Kipursooff for too long without filling out the roster. The Canucks have consistently been a top team for over half a decade. That’s no fluke.

I don’t believe in this window philosophy, and I think a lot of superstar NHL players have put in phenomenal performances as 35+ so it’s way too soon to write off the Sedins and Luongo. The guys who have tended to play well into their late 30’s have been players who have been consistently good and consistently healthy, which pretty much defines these three players.

A healthy Kesler, with consistent line mates whether they be Booth, Burrows, Kassian, Higgins or whoever, is going to be a huge bonus. The only real major question mark up front is the third line (Schroeder), but actually isn’t too bad considering the cap just went down $6M.

We still have four very good veteran defensemen, and didn’t lose anything in torpedoing the almost useless Keith Ballard. Alberts hasn’t been retained / replaced yet, but he will, and Tanev and Corrado are only going to get better.

Also, while the youth pipeline doesn’t look stellar, holy smokes does it look a lot better than a month ago with Horvat, Shinkaruk, Subban and Cassels. Gaunce and Corrado look like they will be NHL players, and there is some exciting depth in net with Lack, Eriksson and Cannata. Guys like Archibald and Mallet may be 4th line guys before too long and with guys like Gaunce and Horvat coming down the pipe this actually could be a ridiculously deep team in two or three years.

Like I said, I have always been a glass half full kind of guy. Though, I do think the Pacific division is going to be a tough slog. Vancouver, San Jose, LA and Anaheim are all relatively even with LA being the favorite out of the gate. Edmonton is going to continue to get better, although I think they will continue to disappoint Oilers fans. Phoenix is always annoyingly tough to place against with Tippet behind the bench. Calgary is going to be the only really shitty team.

So, Vancouver has a good team. There’s nothing here that you would point to and say cup or even division favourite, but it’s still a good team. Health is always a major factor, and to be anywhere near the team we were in 2011 we’ll need two or three career years. Unlikely, I know, but we’ll see.

I think this team has actually tended to put in its best performances against Chicago, LA, San Jose, Anaheim and the like, so I’m quite excited for this new division. Too often we have “played down” to the level of our competition against Edmonton, Calgary, Columbus and the like.
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Re: The Glass is Half Empty....

Postby Mondi » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:36 am

I love the no goaltending drama people. What happens when RL starts slow, Cory starts hot and the team comes out of the gate at a .500 clip?

No goaltending drama. Please.
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Re: The Glass is Half Empty....

Postby Jovocop » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:41 am

Mondi wrote:I love the no goaltending drama people. What happens when RL starts slow, Cory starts hot and the team comes out of the gate at a .500 clip?

No goaltending drama. Please.


It is a 82 games season, is it not?
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Re: The Glass is Half Empty....

Postby Mondi » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:45 am

All I'm saying is that Botch and Co. will construct a controversy from day 1 (even if none exists).
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Re: The Glass is Half Empty....

Postby Jovocop » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:57 am

Mondi wrote:All I'm saying is that Botch and Co. will construct a controversy from day 1 (even if none exists).


The media made a big deal about Schneider losing the season opener to the Ducks... Unless the Canucks win 10 games in a row to start the season, I am almost sure that there will be controversy of some sort.
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Re: The Glass is Half Empty....

Postby ESQ » Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:07 am

spock wrote: Spock's five points

You have cut right to the heart of the matter, sir, and are obviously 100% correct.

However, did any of us have any serious expectation that any of these areas would be improved this off-season?

1) Father Time waits for no man
2) Ballard was gone this year any way, and his part-time playing had to be sacrificed to the lowering cap.
3) One of the goalies was getting traded, we all knew that.
4) Jensen and Schroeder weren't very encouraging last year, I'll agree there.
5) No cap room = no way to address the above problems.

I think many Canucks fans had lessened expectations for the coming year - I know I did. I was more choked about how boring the regular season games became, and what a struggle it was to hold my attention to the on-ice product.

But then, Tortorella arrived. He is by far the most exciting thing for me this off-season. Not because I think he's going to kick ass and pull a Bylsma right away. But because at the very least this team is going to be interesting to watch and follow. I can handle a short playoffs this year due to the facts you pointed out, but so long as Torts makes it entertaining (either on or off the ice) I'll maintain my optimism.

herb wrote:Like I said, I have always been a glass half full kind of guy. Though, I do think the Pacific division is going to be a tough slog. Vancouver, San Jose, LA and Anaheim are all relatively even with LA being the favorite out of the gate.

This is the factor that really worries me. Under the old system, last year was virtually a worst-case scenario (terrible record against playoff teams) that was balanced with the shitload of games against terrible teams. So the worst case was basically a 3rd seed.

This year I don't think the Canucks can miss the playoffs, but home ice is very much in the air. LA and SJS are sure to make the playoffs. Anaheim is a big question-mark, since they rode the flukey win streak to start the season and Getlzaf and Perry are no longer playing for a contract. They have had a Jekyll and Hyde routine for several years now, but I expect they'll return to the playoffs this spring. One of Edmonton and Phoenix could make the jump, but I doubt both. So most likely 4 teams make it from the Pacific.

In the Central then, for Vancouver to miss the playoffs there would have to be 5 teams make it. Chicago and St. Louis yes, Minnesota likely, but no way do two of Dallas, Nashville, Colorado and Winnipeg finish ahead of the Canucks.

So Canucks will suffer in the seeding, but an optimist will say the team will benefit from having to play difficult games throughout the year instead of coasting into the playoffs like they did last year.
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