MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Postby ORCA » Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:54 am

+1 DBR

I tried (albeit much less concisely) to explain this on the golf course Sunday afternoon when the news rolled out.

I also like "the devil you know" scenario.

This was the best move for the Canucks long term. Maybe having Lu back as the #1 will force a few mouthfulls of humble pie down this incredibly knee-jerk reactionary fanbase. One can hope.

Mondi's points:

1. Its widely received that Luongo's contract under the "new" CBA (7 years ago) was a very good deal. A whale to be sure, but under continued support of that CBA (that owners signed and then hated)... that contract was not in outerspace so long as Luongo was solid his prime years. It is incredible how many mind-readers and fortune tellers only pipe up after something has happened.

2. Agree. They should never have given it to him, and past his pride, Luongo knows that. It was a publicity stunt, not unlike the 7th man bullshit the organization tried to pull over us in the same season. He was a leader through professionalism and dedication to his game. Leaders do not need a letter stitched on their Jerseys to do so.

3. Whats your point? GMs chat way more than what gets reported. By this time, Luongo's contract was (and is) working hard against any trade opportunity. Bring into the equation Lockout Delays, uncertainty of schedule and impact of a shortened season, and "failing" to trade him becomes pretty understandable.

4. What a completely ridiculous stat. Luongo sits 5th ALL TIME (qualifying criteria of 200 gp) with .919 SAV%. Maintained over 740+ games. He also has an oustide, but possible chance of overtaking Brodeurs ALL TIME shut out record. If Schneider retains .920 and above after another 100 games, then talk about that. Best in NHL history :lol: .... that's like taking Johan Franzen or Claude Lemieux's 1 mega playoff run and comparing them to Gretzky, Crosby, and Mario.

5. Speculation. None of us know what they talk about. Luongo is a gamer and likely is just happy (professionaly) that he is the undisputed starter now. Egos to feed and all that... but if you think he's the only one with an ego... well... :stupid:

6. When shootouts matter in the playoffs, that becomes a bigger problem. You should think about why it is our 2 most skilled offensive players don't even shoot in our top 3 lineup.

Vancouver makes it a circus. Bottom line in September is that these guys are multimillion dollar employees and will be expected to go to work in whatever capacity they are charged with. In Vancouver or Florida, Luongo will put pads on and stop pucks because the sour grapes approach will do nothing for his career but hurt it. More people should be happy that we have a pissed off world-class goalie with something to prove.
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Postby herb » Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:56 am

The common folk around the office today are really ripping into the Canucks for the apparent disgusting, reprehensible, cowardly and unfathomable treatment of Luongo.

Luongo is a professional who, not that long ago, signed a massive contract to play in Vancouver for the rest of his career. He made that commitment, and then wanted to move on shortly thereafter. He is the one who brought up being traded. He is the one who went on national TV looking like his dog died when he wasn’t moved at the deadline.

Clearly, the Canucks tried to accommodate his request, but found there to be no market. How many of us thought Roberto was worth one, two, or even three draft picks and / or prospects? It’s tough to believe, but he is worth nothing on the trade market.

Luongo also allegedly vetoed a trade to Toronto at last year’s NHL draft because he thought a deal to Florida could be done. Gillis tried to trade Luongo to Toronto at the trade deadline, but Nonis wouldn’t even give up a second round draft pick.

It seems as though Gillis made some mistakes on the PR front, but overall, the team bent over backwards to try to move Roberto. Can the Canucks really be faulted for believing a future HOF goaltender was worth more than a bag of pucks? I certainly can’t blame Aquilini for not wanting to buy out Luongo.
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Postby tantalum » Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:01 am

You sound like a huge apologist for a guy who just traded a player that was trending toward the Vezina before he got hurt. Please don't compare Luongo to Roy and Brodeur. They have 7 cup rings between them.


not an apologist at all. I too would have preferred Schneider over Luongo. But the reality is that from everything we've seen heard and can insinuate it wasn't going to happen in any manner that would help the team. I wasn't comparing Luongo to those two, I was saying if you go through their career they to have many meltdowns under their belts. It happens. it also happens that without Luongo they don't get anywhere near game 7.

As for Schneider faking it? And not needing elite goaltending to win? Hahahahahhahahahahahhahahahhahahah :shock: :lol:


Never said he faked it per se. He has good numbers resulting from good play, no doubt. So to did Jim Carey who has a Vezina on his shelf. Is Cory Schneider the next best goaltender or does his play even out as it did for Carey price or Cam Ward or countless other young goaltenders? i also didn't say anything about elite goaltending...I said elite goaltenders. There is a difference. you need excellent goaltending to win but that need not come from someone you would consider an elite goaltender. At least Corey Crawford is nowhere near elite in my books, despite providing what needed to be provided.

As for speculation about where Luongo would go? I'll leave you to speculate.


i don't need to speculate. The media has done so and multiple people in that media believe that Luongo wasn't really open to going anywhere else until the season began.

And this is all not to mention the effect this whole scenario has had on the player who remains with the team. Assuming he can resume his career at the same level as before (i.e. at a high level), what about his mental state? Does he want to be here? Will he report? Does he feel loyal to the organization? Likely the answer is yes to all the questions, but the distraction remains, at least until the season starts and the team plays well.


If the answers are yes to those things then there is no issue. The media, especially the Vancouver media, will always find some distraction. Hell they wanted to start it this past season when Cory got pulled in game 1! If Gillis let Luongo go for nothing (i.e. waivers) they'd go one about how he had two great goaltenders and didn't improve the organization.

Listen, I know this wasn't easy for the team, the management or the player. And, I know being an armchair GM is easy. Heck, this Horvat could knock our socks off and make us forget about Cory

But, if you consider this an example of shrewd GM work, I've got a bridge for sale.


Seriously what else was possible? the only other option is buying Luongo out or, likely, losing him on waivers. Some would argue it is quite shrewd to have two goaltenders capable of providing good goaltending. it didn't work out the way likely anyone wanted but in the end the trade was good. he had two goaltenders to deal a year ago and many would have been reasonably content with a top 10 pick. Likely a little something more but hey no one pays much for goaltenders these days. That IS what happened though it was admittedly a tortuous path to get to this point.
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Postby Spock » Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:15 am

*Arachnid said* "I agree he made you a fan because you are a weak flip flopper that has no hockey sense whatsoever probably raised to loose morals and values by a pack of hookers...

I will go on record that this will be the worse deal the Canucks have ever made and will make the Neely trade look like the greatest deal like eva....

Luo does not want to be in Van anymore. We all know why.

Now we have no number 1 goalie for our future. Great!

I hate Mike Gillis and cheer the day he will be quietly drowned in English Bay by a bunch of ugly plaid and heavy black boot wearing burn-outs from the glee East Side :D"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Was Schneider your favorite Canuck or something?

Spidey - sorry bud but you are wrong. The Neely trade is and will likely be the worst deal still. Schneider might prove to be a good goaltender, but he won't be a HOF guy. No way.

The sky is falling Spidey....better get in your hole.
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Postby Mondi » Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:19 am

Alright, if we are looking at this is as a triage situation then Gillis did a good job. I'll concede that.

However, I won't concede that just because you CAN win with Corey Crawford you should try it. It also helps having Patrick Kane and Duncan Keith on your team.

Management by triage though...yipes.
Last edited by Mondi on Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Postby herb » Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:25 am

Mondi wrote:Alright, if we are looking at this is a triage situation then Gillis did a good job. I'll concede that.

Management by triage though...yipes.


Yikes is right, but I don’t think there is a pattern to worry about.

This was a shitty but unique situation. I am still disappointed and don’t quite understand how Luongo has zero trade value. If there was any value there I don’t think Schneider would have been traded.
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Postby Lancer » Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:29 am

Mondi wrote:Alright, if we are looking at this is as a triage situation then Gillis did a good job. I'll concede that.

However, I won't concede that just because you CAN win with Corey Crawford you should try it. It also helps having Patrick Kane and Duncan Keith on your team.

Management by triage though...yipes.


Agreed that it's not a viable way to do business, and I'm pretty sure Gillis would rather not do business that way either.

I don't think he's out of the woods yet, what with trying to get Lu's mind back into Canuck colours and ready to be the #1 in Vancouver again.

Provided that does happen, though, it will be telling how he moves forward from this uncomfortable turn of events. Will we see the Gillis of his first year in Vancouver, or his latest year?
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Postby ORCA » Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:30 am

Mondi wrote:Alright, if we are looking at this is a triage situation then Gillis did a good job. I'll concede that.

Management by triage though...yipes.



What other option, when considering the scenario that played out, did you think there was in this instance?

With an increased cap, Schneider will be asking for (and likely receiving) more than Luongo coin when he re-signs. If there's any length to it, Jersey (or whomever) will front load as well.

Luongo's contract allows Aqualini substantially better cash flow at that time.
Edit: This also makes Luongo more attractive to teams with Cap-floor issues. A trade past 2015 makes the 5.33M cap hit attainable with only a couple bigger salary years to swallow, then an extremely reasonable sub 2M for the twillight of his career.

If you go back to Moneypuck economics...under comparable stats, Luongo is arguably the safer (and better) bet for long-run cap management.
Last edited by ORCA on Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Postby Topper » Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:32 am

tantalum wrote:And Luongo for much of that year widely broadcasted he wanted to go to Florida. For much of the year he also couldn't be traded (lockout) and the ground shifted. It has now been widely speculated/"confirmed" that up until the season began Luongo was only willing to go to Florida and would not consider other options.

I know Freidman mentioned this but I still don't place much in it. I also don't think Luongo broadcast a preference. I would certainly be open to seeing some quotes from him. He may have answered direct questions if he would play in Florida and said the obvious, but something still doesn't smell right about TO and Philli being denied.

Again, a preference for Florida based team is obvious given his domestic situation, however most of what I have read is rumour based that has been repeated so often some believe it to be true.

I mean, we now have reasonably credible hockey writers like BobbyMac and LeBrun retweeting dregs of broadcasting. Is that a contractual TSN thing to do? It better be because those two are loosing credibility every time they do so.
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Postby ESQ » Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:35 am

Mondi wrote:4. Gillis (and AV) groomed CS into an elite talent and then let him go. Those who believe he hasn't proved it haven't been watching. The guy has the best SAV% in NHL history. You cannot fake your way through 98 career starts and, in all of his playoff starts (i.e. 100% of them) he has been thrown into the lion's den.

I'm all for posting stats to support an argument, but this is the 3rd different iteration of this record you have posted in this thread.

Looking back at back-up goalies on Presidents Trophy winners (which is what CS was for 60% of his starts), every back-up has career numbers when they're on the best regular season team in hockey. Varlamov in WSH, Boucher in SJS...hell, Emery went 17-1 last season.

Is Emery going to be the beneficiary of a huge bidding war? Is he going to get a huge contract coming off a 1.94 GAA? ...No, because he was the backup on the best team in hockey this year.

Granted, Emery and Boucher are different in that they are veteran guys (but Boucher has a far more impressive record, the shutout streak). But Varlamov is a great example. He was a young guy with upside, coming off great numbers backing up a Pres Trophy team, and was flipped for a 1st and 2nd. Everyone now agrees (and most at the time) that it was a huge over-payment, but it was a trade for goalie potential based on stellar numbers in a limited sample group.

Will Schneider turn out like Varlamov? Probably not, though his panic attacks raises huge question marks.

But the fact that the question has to be asked should at least show that CS has not proven himself to be an "elite NHL goalie". When you remove that conclusory statement, trading a great young back-up for 9th overall (as opposed to trading an elite goalie like a young Roberto Luongo) looks like a great deal.
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Postby ESQ » Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:36 am

That's reminds me, how about we get Emery to back up Lu?
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Postby ODB » Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:41 am

I suggested trading Schneider instead of Lou 14 months ago. I went on and on about why I felt we should keep Lou.

Now 14 months later I wanted to see Lou traded. A lot of water under that bridge in the last 14 months.

GMMG fucked this up real good. As of last week he had four choices: (paint yourself into a corner much)

1, Buy out Lou. (Aquaman would not pony up the cash, fuck him for being cheap in cash cow market, he's a meddling owner, he sucks)
2. Have Lou and Schneider on the roster next Oct
3. Trade Schneider and hand Lou back the number one spot.
4. Wave Lou and send him to Siberia (Edmonton, face him 5 times a season)

That's it! There were no other options.

What was done Sunday needed to be done.

How the entire last 14 months played out did not need to be done. GMMG fucked the dog. See Coho... We bloated his stats to get a good return. What organization says that after trading a player? Fuckin gong show. Aquaman hires the coach? This team has become a joke under the current ownership and GM.

Things will get worse before they get better,

Strap in bitches!
BTW, NOT A FLAME ... JUST AN OBSERVATION ... :P
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Postby herb » Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:50 am

ESQ wrote:That's reminds me, how about we get Emery to back up Lu?


Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe the Canucks now have four professional goaltenders and four professional goaltending jobs. Unless one of Luongo, Lack, Cannata or Eriksson is moved there isn’t room for another goalie.
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Postby Meds » Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:52 am

ukcanuck wrote:I don't know how you figure Cory outplayed luongo
Luongo has basically turned in 30+ win seasons every year he has been here
Cory has yet to even play 30 games in a season.


While I agree with you that Schneider and Luongo are on at least on par, even that Luongo is probably still slightly better, please check your facts.

Schneider played 30 games this season and 33 the season before.
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Postby Meds » Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:03 am

I'm really not sure how MG screwed this up....

You simply DO NOT trade a goaltender of Lou's caliber for Ben Scrivens and a pair of draft picks (neither of them 1st rounders).

That was,apparently,the best offer he received.

Is Gillis to blame for the lockout? No.

Is Gillis to blame for the current CBA? No.

Is Gillis to blame for other GMs not wanting Lou? No.

You can't fault Gillis for the contract he signed Lou to either, it was a bargain at the time, the cap hit still is.

I'm betting the recapture rules were pushed for by Toronto (Burke/Nonis) to force GMMG's hand.

You can fault Gillis for not trading Louie after 2011, that's it, but at the time Luongo was still the guy in net and Schneider hadn't signed an extension or put up the great numbers more than a few times.

You can fault MG for not handing Vigneault his walking papers sooner, because I think AV fucked things up real good as far as the roster and room go, and that certainly contributed to the situation.

The timing of all of this Asia's a complete mess, and outside the control of anyone involved.
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