MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Postby Topper » Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:07 pm

Nice breakdown HW.

I take the media comments you referred to the same way I take the comments here when two other teams do a deal........"Why the hell didn't GMMG offer the same? Fire him!"

LOL
Over the Internet, you can pretend to be anyone or anything.

I'm amazed that so many people choose to be complete twats.
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Postby Canuck-One » Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:44 pm

Good post HW :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Postby cjc » Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:16 pm

Hockey Widow wrote:The team didn't pull the plug on their franchise goalie. Their franchise goalie, for personal reasons wanted to go back east. That lead to the team accelerating CS to see if he could take over, he could, but then we couldn't move Luongo.

I'm warming to this. At least we get a good top draft pick and shave 4 million off the cap.


I can't remember how it all came about. Luongo initiated the idea of a trade? Then either way, this is not where he wants to be. Regardless of what he's earning, to play successfully for a team you have to want to be there and want to help it and the organization. Luongo bided his time and kept a lid on things because he firmly believed a move was coming. Now he's stuck here. The guy who wanted to play for us and said he wanted to end his career here is gone. To my mind, he proved he was as good as Luongo. So who is to blame? The ultimate decision-maker in all this is Gillis. The contract, the captaincy, re-claiming the captaincy, the emphatic declaration of CS as no.1 and the confirmation that Luongo would be traded. It's a gong show. Everyone says Gillis is a players' GM. The last one we had who fit that category was Pat Quinn and I couldn't imagine this scenario happening on his watch. I don't dispute the selection of the players we picked up in the draft. I truly hope they work out because this is the beginning of Mike Gillis' team. He inherited the core that went to the final. It was not his. It will be a while before we can assess the direction he's taking this franchise but Luongo will not be the goalie that leads Gillis' team. It will be the one that follows.
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Postby ESQ » Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:27 pm

mondi wrote:I wonder if Aqualini fancies himself a powerful NHL owner.

I'm sure he doesn't. This CBA negotiation process clearly shows that Aquilini is not part of the Old Boys Club. Aquilini got zero benefit under the new CBA, and his organization was even singled out for penalty with the Luongo Rule.

The way the whole lockout progressed (i.e. no progress until NFL playoffs were over, then suddenly a new deal!) shows that the profitable and Canadian franchises were not part of the process. The lockout saved millions of dollars for teams that struggle with attendance during football season, even though it cost Canadian franchises tens of millions.

As for the "roster player" - I at first thought Nino + 1st was a better deal, but I'm looking back at Cup winners and every team has rookies making an impact.

Chicago - Saad, Shaw
LA - Voynov, Martinez, Clifford
Boston - Marchand, Seguin
Chicago - Versteeg, Niemi, Bolland

It would be almost impossible to take on a Roster Player on anything other than an ELC without detracting from another area. I agree with some of the comments about the likelihood of this team being a contender, but if they get a solid rookie performance next year, all of a sudden I think they are a contender.

Its a shitty thing to try to bank on, but they got the right coach and (hopefully with Horvath) the right prospects to make it happen.
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Postby GoalieDad » Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:10 pm

Mondi wrote:I thought the idea was to go for it with this core. And the idea in trading CS was to acquire parts to help this season.

It's nice to have a good prospect, but this guy isn't projected to be a franchise player so I fail to see how this deal helps the Sedins, Kesler and gang win this season or next.

Is Bo Horvat going to lead us to the promise land in 2020? Is that the idea here?


That is ONE of my questions too. How does this make us better now?
And if the objective is not to get better now, to win a cup now, then they've got to stop pretending otherwise.
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Postby GoalieDad » Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:16 pm

Hockey Widow wrote:The team didn't pull the plug on their franchise goalie. Their franchise goalie, for personal reasons wanted to go back east. That lead to the team accelerating CS to see if he could take over, he could, but then we couldn't move Luongo.

I'm warming to this. At least we get a good top draft pick and shave 4 million off the cap.


With all due respect, that just ain't what happened at all. That is revisionist history.
Schneider won the starting role, plain and simple. It was a truly remarkable accomplishment given Luongo's elite status and massive contract.
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Postby GoalieDad » Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:35 pm

The math goes like this - $27 million buyout and Schneids, or Lu and Horvat. Gillis and co made the right decision.[/quote]

But why was that the math we had to deal with? I have to believe Gillis could have handled things in such a way as to change the equation.
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Postby GoalieDad » Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:45 pm

Boston Canucker wrote:The issue here, it seems clear, is not what MG got for CS last night, but that he mis-read the situation for the past year or so and boxed himself in. (and actually even further back to signing RL to the deal in the first place). If you remove the goalie circus background, it looks like the Canucks had a stellar, potentially epic day at the draft table...potentially! But you just can't get around how much MG messed this all up, and misread things. He's gone from GM of year a few years back to the kid with the dunce cap...


Preach it brother. Right on!
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Postby GoalieDad » Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:51 pm

Mondi wrote: The "situation" aside, you have to think Gillis bungled this up 3 or 4 times over and yet AV got canned and Cory got traded. Now they don't even know if RL will report, heck Gillis hadn't even spoken with Luongo. And Cory found out he got traded while watching TSN.

To me, the team is being run like a circus. Unprofessionalism is not a great quality to have at the top.


Yup.
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Postby GoalieDad » Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:03 am

We replaced our 27 year-old starter with a 34 year-old starter.
We traded away the less-expensive goalie and kept the more expensive goalie.
We traded away our best goalie and kept our second-best goalie. (1a and 1b monikers notwithstanding.)

It's probably fair to say that Gillis made the best of a difficult situation, but Gillis was largely (solely?) responsible for the situation being sooo difficult. Isn't this at least a little like the young man who asks for sympathy because he's an orphan, but fails to acknowledge that he murdered his parents?
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Postby ukcanuck » Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:17 am

GoalieDad wrote:We replaced our 27 year-old starter with a 34 year-old starter.
We traded away the less-expensive goalie and kept the more expensive goalie.
We traded away our best goalie and kept our second-best goalie. (1a and 1b monikers notwithstanding.)

It's probably fair to say that Gillis made the best of a difficult situation, but Gillis was largely (solely?) responsible for the situation being sooo difficult. Isn't this at least a little like the young man who asks for sympathy because he's an orphan, but fails to acknowledge that he murdered his parents?

Nope not like that at all
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Postby Nuckertuzzi » Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:06 am

So...
..we already got our version of Marchand.
..we added our version of Lucic last year.
...and on the same day we pick up our version of Bergeron AND keep an aging goalie who according to the script will peak in a few more years...

Blow up that Detroit model, MG's going Boston on us!

....now if only we had that 7 foot defenseman.
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Postby Reefer2 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:57 am

Like your thoughts there Nucker but all we have are prospects at this point, I really hope they turn out but it will be up to JT to get the young guys in and play real minutes.

O wait they have to earn that first.
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Postby FAN » Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:11 am

I reacted with a "What the fuck" when the trade was announced.

I now have had time to think about it and here are my thoughts.

1) If the Canucks were managed by anyone other than Mike Gillis, Schneider would have been long gone and the return likely wouldn't have been as good as the #9 overall pick in a deep draft.

2) Going with the original plan to trade Schneider, the best time to trade Schneider in terms of maximizing the return would have been the end of 2012. That was the year the Capitals acquired the #11 overall pick and a conditional 2nd for Varlamov and ended up with Filip Forsberg.

3) After deciding to trade Luongo instead, Gillis should have dumped Luongo prior to the lockout.

4) Gillis completely got screwed by the lockout, but that's no excuse because he totally misread the market. Gillis thought that a good player is a good player and he would be worth something. Not when the Cap is going down. It makes me wonder what Gillis was thinking going after Doan. I bet Gillis thought he could easily move players that he simply can't move.

5) Schneider is the better goaltender and the ideal option in net. Is Schneider that much better he's worth a #9 overall strictly based on ability? No. Would I trade Schneider for Luongo and Horvat? Tough one. A better goaltender is a better goaltender and sometimes there's no price that you can pay for that. Then again, the better goaltender doesn't always end up winning the series or the Cu and if Horvat turns into something special and Luongo's longevity is as good as Brodeur's this might end up turning into the right move.

6) Love the Horvat pick. Only question is whether the team have been better off taking Edmonton's offer and drafting Nurse? I don't know as trading a player out of the division can be worth its weight in gold.
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Postby Hockey Widow » Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:09 am

GoalieDad wrote:
Hockey Widow wrote:The team didn't pull the plug on their franchise goalie. Their franchise goalie, for personal reasons wanted to go back east. That lead to the team accelerating CS to see if he could take over, he could, but then we couldn't move Luongo.

I'm warming to this. At least we get a good top draft pick and shave 4 million off the cap.


With all due respect, that just ain't what happened at all. That is revisionist history.
Schneider won the starting role, plain and simple. It was a truly remarkable accomplishment given Luongo's elite status and massive contract.



With all due respect it isn't revisionist history. If you have followed my posting over the years you would know that.

Two years ago, just before the trade deadline there was a decline in Luongo's play that had a lot of people questioning what was wrong. At that time Luongo was going through some personal issues that were well known to the team. All along the Canucks had been brining CS along with the intention of increasing his trade value and then flipping him either that year before his contract expired, for a high pick.

Along comes trade deadline day two years ago and for the first time Luongo's name was put out their and MG actually fielded calls about his availability. MG did not want to trade a goalie yet as a final decision on Luongo had not been made. It was left that it would be explored in the off season. It became well know that he wanted to play back east and be with his family but he did not ask for a trade or complain. The team was well aware of the situation developing and decided they needed to see how good CS really was because for the first time thinking about trading Luongo instead of CS became a very real possibility.

Luongo did not play too bad in the LA series but a "team" management decision was to pull Luongo and put in Cory and he played great.

At that point a reporter asked Luongo if he was upset with getting pulled and if he thought CS had taken over the #1. He just shrugged. A reporter then asked him if he would waive his no trade if asked, he said yes. He did not at that point ask for a trade he said over and over he wants to be a number one.

When the season was over Luongo and MG discussed his future and Luongo let it be known he would like to go to an easter based team, preferably one on Florida. MG told him he would do what he could to accommodate him. At that point CS was no longer being traded and he was given his extension and took over the number one.

We all know what happened last summer. Some thought Luongo's value was high and others thought it was low. As other GMs began to see the predicament the Canucks were in offers got even lower. Mostly teams did not want to trade for him until the new CBA came out. The rest is history.

I think Luongo, his agent and the Canucks really believed they could trade him and make a good hockey deal. I don't believe he was asking for the moon. I think he was trying to accommodate Luongo's wish to go back east.

Then we had all the rumours from Tallon that ownership had cleared the way for him to acquire Luongo and he said if a hockey deal was there he would consider it, but he wanted to wait until the new CBA was done.The only team willing to trade before the new CBA was Toronto and they were low balling and using the threat of the new CBA as a pressure point.

Perhaps this is where MG should have given in and taken what he could get. But we all know after the new CBA the market for Luongo dried up. MG made mistakes in this no question. Bu tit didn't start because the Canucks woke up and suddenly decided CS was better and they wanted to trade Luongo. This all started because he went through a difficult patch where his play slipped, most people at the time wrote it off fatigue from the long season before. But the team was well aware of what was happening and why.

The Canucks were faced with a dilemma. Their number one goalie was showing signs he may want out and his play slipped. That did indeed cause them to change the plan. When plan B failed they simply went back to plan A. The only other choice was to buy him out.

CS had his upsides, age, contract status, stellar play. But so did Luongo. His history, his improved play/re-gaining his form, his low cap hit, the LTC. There were pros and cons for both.

Cory did not out and out steal the job. When the Canucks decided to trade Luongo they made CS their starter thinking they could move Luongo pretty easily. But last season they platooned. But it all started when Luongo's personal life took a toll. I heard all of this just before the trade deadline two years ago and posted the info. I also heard that that deadline day they fielded at least two calls about Luongo and one was from the Leafs. The only reason he was now considered as expendable was because of what was going on at home and the Canucks not wanting that to follow the team and to accommodate Luongo.

CS play made this decision possible because he became everything they hoped he would become. Thats the history. And it has been out there for two years now. Nothing revisionist about it.
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