MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Post by dbr »

Mondi wrote:I wonder if Aqualini fancies himself a powerful NHL owner. Surely he should have (possibly did) fought tooth and nail for a grandfather exception for contracts signed before the CBA was re-written. Retroactive effect is a tough pill to swallow at the negotiating table, how the owners with those Ks already signed capitulated is beyond me.
He'd have to be a pretty fucking powerful owner to convince the league to grandfather in existing deals on a rule punishing contracts that are no longer possible to sign under the current CBA.. :lol:
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Post by 2Fingers »

Spock wrote:This deal is making the best of an an unfortunate situation. Yes, the Canucks made this bed - so they do need to sleep in it. But .....
3) When the deal with Luongo was signed, nobody knew the Cap would go down.

----these 3 issues, which were completely *unpredictable*, forced the Canucks into this situation.
If MG did not plan on the cap to go down then he is a fucking idiot.

Everyone knew the cap would come down as there are teams financially struggling and Buttman had been given a mandate to once again control costs.

Your other 2 points I would agree with.
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Post by Hockey Widow »

dbr wrote:
Mondi wrote:I wonder if Aqualini fancies himself a powerful NHL owner. Surely he should have (possibly did) fought tooth and nail for a grandfather exception for contracts signed before the CBA was re-written. Retroactive effect is a tough pill to swallow at the negotiating table, how the owners with those Ks already signed capitulated is beyond me.
He'd have to be a pretty fucking powerful owner to convince the league to grandfather in existing deals on a rule punishing contracts that are no longer possible to sign under the current CBA.. :lol:

Well, they did a partial grandfather. Columbus is not on for any cap recapture with respect to Nash because he was traded under the old CBA. Seems if they could make that concession that could have come up with something other than a compliance buy out. But they didn't want to. The point was to punish and get a pound of flesh. Didn't this matter go to an arbitrator who ruled the contracts did not circumvent the cap? Bettman wanted to win this one and he did.
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Post by Strangelove »

Hockey Widow wrote: So MG had to tell Lou, get the trade call done and then call CS before the announcement.

So I think he tried to get all that done before TSN made the announcement. They should not allow media vultures anywhere near the trade call table during this draft. Duthie had actually texted CS before Bettman made the announcement to get his reaction. That should just not happen and that is not on MG.
Agreed it's not on Gillis.

You can see him on the phone calling Schneids as the trade was being announced:



https://twitter.com/tsnjamesduthie/stat ... 5684173825

"Schneider did not know about the trade when it was announced. When you saw Gillis on the phone right after, it was with Schneider."

Actually Gillis was trying to talk to Schneids AS the trade was being announced.....
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Post by Hockey Widow »

Reefer2 wrote:
Spock wrote:This deal is making the best of an an unfortunate situation. Yes, the Canucks made this bed - so they do need to sleep in it. But .....
3) When the deal with Luongo was signed, nobody knew the Cap would go down.

----these 3 issues, which were completely *unpredictable*, forced the Canucks into this situation.
If MG did not plan on the cap to go down then he is a fucking idiot.

Everyone knew the cap would come down as there are teams financially struggling and Buttman had been given a mandate to once again control costs.

Your other 2 points I would agree with.

The eventual trade is a good one. MG loses marks for everything he did leading up to this having to happen. Living precariously close to the cap every year he has been here, not doing enough to shed cap last year in anticipation of the lowering cap. His hands have been tied for several years with respect to who he can bring in via FA as a result.

Maybe he has stuck to his core too long. Maybe he has handed out too many NTC. Maybe he has been to stubborn to recognize past mistakes. Maybe he has held onto players too long even though AV was clearly not going to play them. All of that is on him.But he end result was the best of the situation.

Maybe he really did need the waterboy to draw a line in the sand.
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Post by Spock »

Hockey Widow wrote:[quote="Reefer2]

If MG did not plan on the cap to go down then he is a fucking idiot.

Everyone knew the cap would come down as there are teams financially struggling and Buttman had been given a mandate to once again control costs.

Your other 2 points I would agree with.

The eventual trade is a good one. MG loses marks for everything he did leading up to this having to happen. Living precariously close to the cap every year he has been here, not doing enough to shed cap last year in anticipation of the lowering cap. His hands have been tied for several years with respect to who he can bring in via FA as a result.

Maybe he has stuck to his core too long. Maybe he has handed out too many NTC. Maybe he has been to stubborn to recognize past mistakes. Maybe he has held onto players too long even though AV was clearly not going to play them. All of that is on him.But he end result was the best of the situation.

Maybe he really did need the waterboy to draw a line in the sand.[/quote][/quote]

As far as sticking to the core too long - I do think MG has really tried hard to make Vancouver a destination players wanted to play in - that they were treated with respect and given rights to their own destiny. To get those rights, most of these core players got payed somewhat less than they might have on the open market. I applaud MG for trying to make the culture of the Canucks one where players *want* to come play in a city where travel has put them at a disadvantage.

Clearly - the NTCs make the team less flexible in its ability to address its needs. It would take Nostradamus to predict how the NHL would stop enforcing some of its on-ice rules....or the change in the CBA....or the Cap drop....and maybe it is this inability to predict future events than suggests to this poster that no NTCs should be offered as a GM.
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Post by 2Fingers »

Just watched the youtube full video for the 9th pick, what "deal" were all the media talking heads that supposedly Edmonton offered? All I have heard/read is that the Nucks wanted 3 players/prospects back.

Any word what they actually offered?
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Post by tantalum »

The whole Schneider wasn't told ahead of time thing from the media and fans really annoys me.

Guess what, on deadline day and draft day, teams don't always have the time to let the player know before the trade gets announced. It happens. Schneider doesn't have a NTC/NMC and should have zero expectation of being consulted or even being told in time on these special trading days. Any other day, you certainly call the guy in and talk to him before the trade is announced but it simply doesn't happen like that on draft day. Even if the deal was made the night before. NJ Lou didn't want it announced until the draft so he could make the splash...so if you are going to blame anyone blame NJ Lou. And no you can't tell Schneider and expect it'll stay hush hush. He'll tell a teammate who tells another teammate who tells a player on another team who tells a reporter etc.

And guess what, despite the media's best efforts to demonize Gillis on this point it is clear Schneider has no hurt feelings. And of course Gillis was telling him before the announcement anyways.


edit: to the above. no nothing on what the oilers actually offered just that the Oilers believed it was a better offer. It may have been but maybe it wasn't good enough to make the canucks trade to a divisional rival.
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Post by 2Fingers »

Also just watched the 24th overall pick, how come no MG when he was being interviewed?
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Post by Hockey Widow »

Right after the trade was announced the media started with the speculation that other GM's were stunned because they "could" have offered more. Well, we all knew CS was in play. If those GM's could have offered more why did't they pick up the phone and offer more?

Lets look at the picks:

No way Florida, Tampa or the Avs trade their number 1 pick for Cory so mark them off the list.

Seth Jones fell to Nashville who didn't need a goalie so no way they offer up the 4th overall pick.

Carolina has Ward but may have been intrigued but no way they take on a 4 million dollar contract while still having Ward and giving up the 5th overall.

Then we come to 6 & 7, the Alberta teams. MG was pretty confident that one of the two guys he wanted would be available to him at 9. If one of the Alberta teams wanted CS they would have to offer up a huge incentive for MG to trade him within the division. This offer would have to include a roster player with a low cap hit or on an ELC, plus their 1st overall. Why else would MG trade to one of the Alberta teams when he knew they guy he wanted was likely to be there? Edmonton had every opportunity to land CS if they wanted to but did not. Us moving up to 6 or 7 was not going to help us but it would put CS on a team within our division.

Then look at number 8 pick. Buffalo. They have Miller who they can't move yet and have a goalie in their system ready to take over that they are comfortable with. No way they take on CS 4 million cap hit and give up their pick.

Then it comes to 9. The trade was made.

Picks below 9 were risky as MG wanted Horvat and knew he could get him at 9. Did any of the teams picking below us step up in the days leading up to the draft once they knew CS was in play. I've heard NYI offered their 15th pick and Nino Niederreiter, but I have yet to see that confirmed anywhere. That would have been sexier for everyone because we would have had Nino and a 1st I guess but perhaps MG really coveted Horvat and feared he would not be there at 15.

I get so tired of the media BS. Every GM out there knew we had to trade a goalie. Every GM out there knew we had cap problems and could not take big or lengthy contracts back. Yet they are surprised because they could have offered more? If that's the case then every other GM failed in their jobs yesterday because they therefore obviously failed to investigate properly if Cory was available. Shame on them for fucking up big time. All they had to do was pick up the phone and call Mike yet they didn't do that?
Last edited by Hockey Widow on Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Post by Topper »

Nice breakdown HW.

I take the media comments you referred to the same way I take the comments here when two other teams do a deal........"Why the hell didn't GMMG offer the same? Fire him!"

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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Post by Canuck-One »

Good post HW :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Post by cjc »

Hockey Widow wrote:The team didn't pull the plug on their franchise goalie. Their franchise goalie, for personal reasons wanted to go back east. That lead to the team accelerating CS to see if he could take over, he could, but then we couldn't move Luongo.

I'm warming to this. At least we get a good top draft pick and shave 4 million off the cap.
I can't remember how it all came about. Luongo initiated the idea of a trade? Then either way, this is not where he wants to be. Regardless of what he's earning, to play successfully for a team you have to want to be there and want to help it and the organization. Luongo bided his time and kept a lid on things because he firmly believed a move was coming. Now he's stuck here. The guy who wanted to play for us and said he wanted to end his career here is gone. To my mind, he proved he was as good as Luongo. So who is to blame? The ultimate decision-maker in all this is Gillis. The contract, the captaincy, re-claiming the captaincy, the emphatic declaration of CS as no.1 and the confirmation that Luongo would be traded. It's a gong show. Everyone says Gillis is a players' GM. The last one we had who fit that category was Pat Quinn and I couldn't imagine this scenario happening on his watch. I don't dispute the selection of the players we picked up in the draft. I truly hope they work out because this is the beginning of Mike Gillis' team. He inherited the core that went to the final. It was not his. It will be a while before we can assess the direction he's taking this franchise but Luongo will not be the goalie that leads Gillis' team. It will be the one that follows.
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Post by ESQ »

mondi wrote:I wonder if Aqualini fancies himself a powerful NHL owner.
I'm sure he doesn't. This CBA negotiation process clearly shows that Aquilini is not part of the Old Boys Club. Aquilini got zero benefit under the new CBA, and his organization was even singled out for penalty with the Luongo Rule.

The way the whole lockout progressed (i.e. no progress until NFL playoffs were over, then suddenly a new deal!) shows that the profitable and Canadian franchises were not part of the process. The lockout saved millions of dollars for teams that struggle with attendance during football season, even though it cost Canadian franchises tens of millions.

As for the "roster player" - I at first thought Nino + 1st was a better deal, but I'm looking back at Cup winners and every team has rookies making an impact.

Chicago - Saad, Shaw
LA - Voynov, Martinez, Clifford
Boston - Marchand, Seguin
Chicago - Versteeg, Niemi, Bolland

It would be almost impossible to take on a Roster Player on anything other than an ELC without detracting from another area. I agree with some of the comments about the likelihood of this team being a contender, but if they get a solid rookie performance next year, all of a sudden I think they are a contender.

Its a shitty thing to try to bank on, but they got the right coach and (hopefully with Horvath) the right prospects to make it happen.
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Post by GoalieDad »

Mondi wrote:I thought the idea was to go for it with this core. And the idea in trading CS was to acquire parts to help this season.

It's nice to have a good prospect, but this guy isn't projected to be a franchise player so I fail to see how this deal helps the Sedins, Kesler and gang win this season or next.

Is Bo Horvat going to lead us to the promise land in 2020? Is that the idea here?
That is ONE of my questions too. How does this make us better now?
And if the objective is not to get better now, to win a cup now, then they've got to stop pretending otherwise.
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